| Author | Message | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 117 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hi River! I'm going back to your original comment. Thank you for bringing up the subject, as I have been praying and trying to puzzle out what "prophecy" in the NC looks like. I started a thread on CARM and did some research for that, but didn't get too far. Got discouraged and backed off. Your comment that us Formers look at the subject through our SDA glasses really, really helped me.
I think this is an excellent point --> Guilty As Charged! I'm not quite sure I "got" all of what you said, and I guarantee I still have no idea in the wide world what this "prophecy thingie" in the NC era looks like, but I also had come to a sense that it was entirely different from OT prophecy. Here's the question I'm running into...Well, maybe more than one...
Okay...These "tests" that you apply; they are subjective. I can hear my SDA friends now: "Edify?" --> "Certainly! I am inspired like all get out when I read her.Jehovah's Witness, Mormans, SDA, any cult will be able to justify their prophet with subjective criteria. Now then, what are are we to conclude? Is NC "prophecy" subjective? (BTW - If this is the case, I'm okay with that...I just need to know it.) I totally agree that "prophecy", as it appears to be refered to in 1 Corinthians 12-14, seems to be something entirely different from what we are accustomed to in the OT. This is what sent me off on a hunting expedition. So I'm thrilled that you have brought this back up again. In 1 Corinthians 14 it is clear that bunches of people will be "prophecying". Paul gives us directions for keeping order...crowd control! It is obvious that all "prophecying" is not of the same value...He says to have folks available to sort it out. Okay, so this is where I begin to get lost and my brain gets mushy. What criteria were they to use in evaluating the "prophecyings"? What information does Paul give us elsewhere? What do the other apostles say about it? What information did Jesus give? The Abacus example is a good one. I had found that too. It is interesting to me that you don't think they used it as a future prophecy. Could you say more about what makes you think that? What other examples may we have? I don't think the thread "deteriorated", River, because I agree that the 2nd conversation is also important. I'm like you, though, in that I'd like to continue with this one. Pegg  **PS - We're having tons of storms here, which makes my satalite erratic. I apologize in advance for not making replies in a timely manner. (Message edited by pegg on June 04, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4938 Registered: 9-2006  |
You lost me Pegg. Do you mean to tell me I thought NC prophecy is slanted or skewed? What did you mean when you say they are subjective? They are objective, not subjective, and 1 Cor 14 does in no way teach 'crowd control'. Paul is not teaching crowd control, he is teaching them to have decency and order in the churches, it is really simple, don't three people prophecy at once, don't speak with tongues in a public meeting unless you have the interpretation. What Paul found at Corinth was Christians just coming into the gifts of the Holy Spirit, he was not railing on those Christians, he was teaching them so that the church would be edified. They didn't know any better. They were Children in the use of the gifts. Children are taught, not beaten, he wasn't trying to produce crowd control for goodness sake. These people were not out of order as Christians as some would read this, they were babies in the lord thats all, they weren't out of order as in brutishness. New Christian are not brutes to be beaten into subjection, they are children, Gods lambs to be taught and not railed on. If Paul would have railed on God's children he would have been out of order. Now,so, lets go at it in order too and try to make some sense out of it. For one thing, forget about what SDA's are going to say about it, you are no longer SDA's...I hope...so we don't give a whing what their replys are going to be. Its what I said, you need to quit thinking like one. Nother thing, what I meant about the thread deteriorating was that it was headed for another argument over how many of the ten commandments do we bring with us? We,ve had that argument before. It wasn't about Hecs questions at all. Now lets go back to Corinthians I 14:3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. What does this say to you personally Pegg? Does this sound like a future thing, or a present thing? What is edification? Edification is teaching, learning, schooling, Paul was 'edifying' the Corinthian church body. Comfort might sound like this, "I say to you my children that I love you, I have begotten you even before the foundation of the world and I love you." Exhortation would sound something like this. "Brethren what do the scriptures say? Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them. Hebrews 13:10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. Hebrews 13:11 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp. Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. Hebrews 13:13 Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. I have just exhorted you about grace, foods, and so forth. Does any of this look like foretelling the future? Now, you guys are always wanting to test Ellen under the old covenant and the prophets of old, yet you want the new covenant, is that sensible to do that? Is it even right to do that? Now you don't need to leave that scripture (1 Cor. 14:3) and go chasing after others until you have understood that one, it is not vague, you don't need it said a different way to understand, what you need to do is believe the one you just read, Pauls words are in no way complicated unless you yourself complicate them. Now, what if God gave me a prophecy to you and I am new at the gifts of the Holy Spirit and I just sort of stutter and mix it up, would you accuse me of being a false prophet? Hopefully, you would see that I am a new Christian trying to obey God, or would you ride me out on a rail and injure my tender feeling toward God forever. There are times to use stern-ness and there are time to use tenderness. You see, my point that I was trying to make was that we can't have it both ways, neither can we judge Ellen White under the OC test of a profit although she fails the test of a OC prophet as well as the NC prophet. You see, the reason I noticed it when even you yourselves did not notice what you were doing, is that I deal with Adventist every day of the week and I know for a fact that they do live in the OC. Now I know not a one of you would intentionally do that, I know that you are tender toward the lord. Now, I have been up for eighteen hours and I have to go to bed. I hope I didn't muff this up cause I'm a zombie right now. River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 814 Registered: 7-2007 |
Lets see.... Ellen White said: 1. that Jesus' blood got the Heavenly Sanctuary dirty 2. that Satan is the final sin bearer 3. that no one can say they're saved 4. (in effect) that Jesus is not omniscient because He has to investigate everyone to see if they can be saved 5. that Jesus' atonement wasn't complete 6. that tea and coffee are narcotics (see Counsels on Diet & Foods) 7. that new races started because of "amalgamation" 8. that "To be redeemed means to cease from sin" (Review and Herald, vol. 77, No. 39, p. 1, September 25, 1900). 9. that the seal of God is the Sabbath (Ephesians 1:13,14 says what it REALLY is - the Holy Spirit!!!) 10. that the plan of salvation was made after the fall (Great Controversy, p. 347) | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 582 Registered: 10-2008 |
River, Wow!! For some reason when I read your first post (and I read it quickly) I wasn't getting it. Yes, I know, baby that I am I needed to hear/read it again. So I read your most recent post (pretty amazing teaching, brother)! And then I just went back and reread your first post! I got it. (aha, time). I had never seen prophecy as you pointed out in the NC. I was seeing it from an OC position. Now 1 Cor. 14:3 has a new meaning/understanding for me. Amazing! Thank you for this post. There are so MANY SDA thinking patterns ingrained in me. I will praise the Lord as each one is rearranged and changed. Wish it could all happen at once . He knows best though and I will praise Him as one by one they change. River, I think you just prophesied . Because I felt "exhorted" to change me think'in. Blessings, friend, Keri | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 240 Registered: 3-2009 |
River said:
Does that mean that when John said:
Is he saying that we need to ignore the "tests" of the OT because we are now in the NC? Just a few examples:
Are the only valid tests now tests #5 and #6? Hec (Message edited by hec on June 05, 2009) | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 210 Registered: 3-2009 |
Good question, Hec. I have wondered this, also. Anyone have any thoughts? | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 125 Registered: 2-2006 |
That was the question I was trying to ask in my post #117 above, but I'm afraid I garbled it.  River's comments have gotten me into studying 1 Corinthians 12-14 verse by verse. (I believe chapter 13 is an integral part of this discourse.) I'm looking at a commentary that I trust. Some notions are forming, but I still have at least half of chapter 14 to go, and I need to look at other references to the gift of prophecy in the New Covenant. My sense is that we are talking about a whole different thing compared with the prophets of the OT. God's way of communicating with believers is different. So I'm beginning to think the "role" of a "prophet" is different. The "assignment" of a "prophet" is different... ...There appear to be many "prophets". ...They appear to be local to their own congregation. ...Perhaps the gift comes and goes; it is not permanent. I am also beginning to think that the "authority" of one who "prophesies" under the NC may be different. Any one of these (even alone!) would be a very big deal. Together, they would make a huge impact on what we perceive when we hear the word "prophet". This Would Also Impact How One Tests An Individual Claiming "Prophetic" Gifts. Pegg (Message edited by pegg on June 10, 2009) (Message edited by pegg on June 10, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4972 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well, your finally getting it Pegg, I thought maybe I was going to have to un-screw the top of you head and pour it in with a funnel. You said"...Perhaps the gift comes and goes; it is not permanent." Reread 1 Corinthians 12:11. You said "...There appear to be many "prophets". Re-read Corinthians I 12:12. You said "Together, they would make a huge impact on what we perceive when we hear the word "prophet". That was my whole point in my initial posts, that ever since I been on this forum, former Adventist have had the concept of viewing the word prophet as if you were still an Adventist and I just finally had to say something. You said "I am also beginning to think that the "authority" of one who "prophesies" under the NC may be different." Absolutely right Pegg, the person doing the prophecying has absolutely no more 'authority' that the new born baby christian sitting over in the corner with his shiny new bible in his hand. The one doing the prophesying is simply giving voice to the Holy Spirit as he (HS) brings comfort, or exhortation and edification to the church body that is present at the time. So yes, it is to the congregation present is the time, not too the whole dern world. Its for their comfort and exhortation or edification, you can't hear it down the street six blocks. Its for the comfort, encouragement and up-building of the saints of God in which you are one Pegg. Did you know your a saint? Somebody says, Oh, I'm just an old sinner saved by grace, Bull crap! He has raised you up to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. You say well...they don't look like saints! Tough! They are. We are made new in Christ friend and you can take that to the bank. Now, what about tongues and interpretation which is the same thing as a prophet? Carry's the exact same weight when God uses it as the Prophet. I don't pretend to speak for God, but I think the reason for the tongues and interpretations is because it takes two to do the job instead of one as with prophesying, it takes only one. Remember Matt. 18:16 then re-read 1 cor. 14:29 under the light of what the Lord said. It has been my experience that 99% of the time it will be done via tongues and interpretation. One person speaks in tongues and the other person interprets what is said in tongues, Those are the two witnesses and if you judge what is said by the written word and say amen, that's three. If an un-believer is by and doubts, now he is doubting two people instead of one, if the Pastor comments on the interpretation, that s three. I used the gift of prophecy right here on this forum and I doubt if a one of you knew what was happening. I thought it was pretty weird as I wrote out a prophecy, now that's weird, but I am learning also that I can't put God in some box. Another strange thing that God did with a forum member which I am not free to tell you about, she can tell you when she gets good and ready. But what I thought was safely tucked in my theological box somehow got out. I told my pastor about it and he just smiled, he don't put God in a box. How many tests do you need other than what Paul and the rest have written about the new covenant and his teaching to the church at Corinth. What the problem is, I think, is that you folks are. 1. Either not believing what you read in the Bible or... 2. You are so used to thinking like an Adventist, that much of this stuff goes right over your head. And... 3. 99% of you have never been around a church that would even allow the Holy Spirit to speak through somebody. But friend, that don't change Gods word one little whit, not one little bit. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9971 Registered: 12-2003  |
Excellent post, River. (And yes, I have noticed several times when I was aware you were using the gift of prophecy...) You've explained the OT/NT difference well. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 262 Registered: 3-2009 |
So my post 240 above (jeez, I talk to much)is a bunch of baloney? Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9976 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hec, your post is actually very good. In fact, however, all the biblical tests of a prophet apply to someone who actually assumes the "office" of prophet. Ellen didn't just function "in the prophetic gift" as new covenant prophets do. She functioned (rather, she claimed to function) the way the OT prophets functioned. She claimed God gave her special revelations as He had to the OT prophets, and they were for the church. Since she functioned the way an OT prophet functioned, it is fair to use the OT criteria to judge her. No one can make false prophecies, call them messages from God, and have any excuse whatsoever for having those prophecies fail--such a one is a false prophet. Bottom line, though, River's explanation of a NC prophet should lay the foundation for judging someone like Ellen. If she's not operating the way the new covenant says prophecy functions, she is FALSE. If a person is false according to NC criteria, s/he will also be false according to the OC criteria. The fact that the Adventist organization claims that Ellen was a "messenger of God" and inspired the same way the biblical prophets were inspired, even publicly writing and preaching that she is a prophet in the order of John the Baptist (who the Bible identifies as the last of the OT prophets), that fact alone should indict Adventism as a false system. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2797 Registered: 10-2004  |
Hec, Another important NT test to determine false prophets is the one in the verses immediately following the verse you quoted (1 John 4:1). Jeremy | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 130 Registered: 2-2006 |
Okay now, You-all don't pile-on!!! I'm just trying to get my head around this... If, in 1 Corinthians 12-14, there are multiple "prophets" at the worship service. They preach the "message" that they [think] they have been given, but... The members have to "evaluate" [the usefulness/accuracy/appropriateness(?) of] the message. The message should build up the congregation (edify) or provide encouragement or comfort. Well, this sounds like preaching to me. Now...What if I think that Ellen's message is uplifting (I don't!), Encouraging (which I don't), Or comforting (are you kidding?!)... ...BUT WHAT IF I DID? We're back to the content of the message has to be tested by Scripture. This is no different from how we evaluate any word that we hear preached. It is what the Jews in Beroea were commended for doing when Paul himself preached to them. Ellen doesn't flunk because she copied copious amounts. She doesn't flunk because she ate oysters. We don't need to argue about if her predictions came true or not, Or if she said nutty stuff like amalgamation. Paul says The Gift is FREE. She makes it's wages. End of story... ...Or is it??? Can one preach a false message today and then an accurate one next Sunday? If you deliver a bad message are you kicked out to the community of believers? It sounds to me like members are charged to evaluate the message rather than the messenger? I Guess I'm Still Confused... Pegg | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 219 Registered: 3-2009 |
Pegg, good questions. Also,John the Revelator was sort of like an OT prophet, right? In my discussion with SDA friends, they pointed this out in defense of EGW. | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 132 Registered: 2-2006 |
Yes, Seekinglight. I have been thinking about the Apostle John there on the Isle of Patmos as I have been studying this. Was Paul a prophet (not in the preaching sense, but in the foretelling sense) when he told about the 2nd coming in 1 Thessalonians? In this case the church body surely would have been edified by his words. I have heard it surmised that John's writing was "encoded" in symbolism that his readers would understand but that would pass the censorship of his Roman guards. Whether that is true or not, the overtone of his writings - "Your God Wins!" - surely would have brought encouragement to Christians who were then suffering persecution. Along the same vein, one could speculate that certainly Ellen's message - "We didn't really get it wrong; Jesus is still coming very soon." - would have brought comfort to the disappointed Adventists. I have also heard that when the Apostle John wrote He was warning that the canon was now closed and should not be tampered with. I tend to think that whatever John wrote he would have intended his readership to understand. I guess they certainly could have understood this as a warning to accept no further revelation. Certainly they could not have had a concept of the closing of the canon, seeing that it wouldn't be compiled for a couple of hundred years. Perhaps John and Paul had this role because they were apostles...We know that the apostles carried much more authority. I am comfortable with the Spiritual Gift of Prophecy being one of preaching. I think this is borne out in the text (1 Cor). I certainly believe that good preaching is a gift, having endured preaching by some folks on whom it obviously wasn't bestowed! The problem I have with having to test the message and not the messenger is that this leads to having to fully examine every part of every message. This is patently impossible. I am in no way inclined to examine the words of Joseph Smith and every other Joe Blow who may come by. ...Guess I'm Still Confused! Pegg (Message edited by pegg on June 12, 2009) | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 133 Registered: 2-2006 |
Coleen, you said: Not trying to be argumentative; I was just wondering where we can find this distinction enumerated? Thanks. Pegg | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9980 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actually, Pegg, all I meant was that ANYONE who has messages from God must line up in every way with the Bible. In other words, someone claiming to be a "new testament" prophet speaking words of encouragement or admonition to the church can't be saying anything that disagrees with the Bible or that doesn't come true. In other words, it's completely fair to judge Ellen by the OT standards because she made prophecies that didn't come true. In addition, she didn't fit the description of the NT gift of prophecy, either. The Bible states that God spoke through prophets in the past, but now he's spoken through His Son. That simply means that all God's revelation about salvation and who God is has been given through Jesus. There is no new information from God about salvation, the nature or identity of God, or about how we are to live. Anyone who presumes to have additional information can be written off at once because of Hebrews 1:1-2. More than than, they can be written off if they prophecy events that don't come true. The whole Bible is for us all; anyone claiming to be God's mouthpiece has to line up with ALL the Bible says! Colleen | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 221 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thank you, Colleen. I like the idea that no new essential, salvation info. will come by way of a prophet. Even as a loyal SDA, I believed EGW was quite outdated and we needed a "new prophet". Glad to finally let this go.. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 272 Registered: 3-2009 |
Get out of here! You want now and Ellen Black? No more Ellens. Thank you. Hec | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 222 Registered: 3-2009 |
LOL, no, not another Ellen! I just wanted a more updated prophet that would address the role of Islam and would put to rest the idea that eating chili peppers makes you want to have sex!! |
