| Author | Message | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 343 Registered: 8-2008 |
I have been reading Tozer's The Knowledge of the Holy, and I came across this statement: I think this is so fascinating, because Adventism, even when teaching Jesus is Divine, states that somehow He stopped being Divine when He became man, and that as a man He no longer has certain Divine attributes. I remember one Adventist telling me Jesus isn't omnipresent anymore. But if Jesus is God, He cannot somehow stop being God. Adventism sees divinity as a list of characteristics, that if we add up all these characteristis, that causes someone to be divine. But Divinity is a being, Yahweh, God. Jesus did not cease to be divine or give up His power by becoming human. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2800 Registered: 10-2004  |
Bskillet, Exactly. Great points--and great quote from Tozer! Also, the denial of Jesus' omnipresence is official SDA teaching. Here is an incredible quote from an article in the Adventist Review (September 11, 1986) by SDA theologian Fritz Guy:
Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 14, 2009) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 275 Registered: 3-2009 |
As a human, is Jesus omnipresent? As a human, when he was in Capernaum, was he also in Jerusalem? How do we reconcile the two natures of Jesus? 100% God and 100% human. Does he stop being God, when he acts as a human or does he stop being human when he acts as God? Obviously a human cannot do certain things that God can do. Hec | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2044 Registered: 8-2004  |
In other words, does humanity supersede God? I think not. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 344 Registered: 8-2008 |
Jeremy - Thanks for the link. Looks like the main SDA problem in regards to Jesus' omnipresence, and the ministry of the Holy Spirit, is that they don't seem to believe in the mutual-indwelling of the Persons of the Trinity. Wherever the Spirit goes, Christ is there, because the Spirit indwells Jesus, and He indwells the Spirit. Likewise, Jesus indwells the Father and the Father indwells Jesus. And the Father indwells the Spirit and vice versa. Thus if one of the Persons is omnipresent, all must be. Adventism's problem in all of this is the extremely materialistic way in which they view God. Their view comes from the Arianism of SDA founders and the false visions of EGw. Hec - Jesus was omnipresent even when He was incarnate. He tells Nathanael that He saw him when Nathanael was still under the fig tree, before his brother Phillip had called him. This shows that Jesus is omnipresent, and it was at this that Nathanael was amazed (Jn. 1:45-50). John 14:23 records Jesus saying the presence of Himself and the Father "We will come and make Our home with him." The mystery of Christ's incarnation is the mystery that He is fully man, yet His humanity does not overpower His Divinity. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2801 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hec, In that quote I posted above, Fritz Guy is not talking about Jesus' humanity, but rather His deity. And he is contrasting "Jesus" with "God"! "Does he stop being God, when he acts as a human" No. "or does he stop being human when he acts as God?" No. Jesus is one person, and the two natures cannot be separated. In both Catholic and Protestant theology, there is a theological term called the "communicatio idiomatum," which refers to:
Jeremy | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 280 Registered: 3-2009 |
I went to the Catholic site and read the article about "communicatio idiomatum" and the argument looks to me like: Jesus is God Mary is the mother of Jesus then Mary is the mother of God Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2802 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hec, See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos Mary is the mother of God--this term is not meant, however, to imply anything other than the simple fact that Jesus Christ is one person. Nestorius (who taught the heresy that Jesus Christ is two persons--one human and one divine) said that Mary was only the "Christ-bearer" (Christotokos) but refused to acknowledge that she was the "God-bearer" (Theotokos). Thus, the need for a council on the matter, which anathematised as heretics those who said Mary was only "Christ-bearer" (Nestorianism). It has nothing to do with worshipping Mary. Instead, it has everything to do with worshipping Jesus Christ the Man as fully God, and rejecting the heresy that makes Jesus as less than God in the flesh. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 14, 2009) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 281 Registered: 3-2009 |
Is there a way for me to become 20 again? I think I won't have enough time to unlearn and relearn all I need to. I just remembered that I was taught that Jesus was the human name and Christ was the divine name. So when we talk about Jesus, we talk about the human been. When we talk about Christ, we talk about the God. And there was always a separation to explain the different issues. For example, I was taught that the real sacrifice of Jesus was not dying at the cross. Many innocent people had died and being tortured worse that Jesus did. The real sacrifice was to limit his divinity, i.e., not being omnipresent now because of his human body. That was one of the reasons why he had to send the HS because he could not be everywhere at the same time due to his human body. Now, that brings more problems. As God He is omnipresent. Is that only in spirit? because his body can't be everywhere at the same time. I'm sorry, I guess I'm asking questions that councils through the ages have dealt with and are still dealing, but as I said before I'm not 20 anymore and... Oh, well, if anyone, wants to help me out, you're welcome. Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2803 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yes, Adventism does teach Nestorianism (separation of the two natures).
That is correct. (Although the Catholics [transubstantiation] and the Lutherans [consubstantiation], teach that His body and blood are actually present at the Lord's Supper.) Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on June 14, 2009) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9992 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hey, Hec--the Holy Spirit isn't limited by your being greater than 20! The promise is that He will guide us into all truth—and that promise doesn't have a time stamp on it!! Colleen | ||
| Akweavers Registered user Username: Akweavers Post Number: 145 Registered: 8-2008 |
Ok, Now I finally understand what the big deal is. I never did before. We had communion today and the preacher was saying something about "the terrible sacrifice", later I asked my husband what was so terrible about the sacrifice. I knew there had to be something that was but, I did not understand what. After reading this thread I finally get it!! God died for us!.. and then ressurected Himself!! Wow what an amazing God we worship. I guess I seem stupid but being taught all we were about Jesus, how he could have sinned and now He isn't omnipresent, how He had to leave so the Holy Spirit could come etc. I never saw it, I never saw the "real sacrifice" I hear people talking about. I just now at this time realize what it is all about. I can't believe how blasphemous the stupidity I was taught really was. | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 974 Registered: 11-2007  |
I remember clearly being taught He gave us his ability to be omnipresent forever.. There are things you learned that you don't realize you had not yet gone back to re-evaluate. This is one I "forgot" I learned until studying out the true nature of the Trinity here on this forum. So thankful for all the help here! | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 285 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks, Colleen, for reminding me. It's just that I *KNEW* everything and now I don't know anything. Hec | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2048 Registered: 8-2004 |
 Puts new meaning into "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ" (Phil. 3:8), eh? |
