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Bskillet
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Username: Bskillet

Post Number: 358
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 1:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So I am writing this book, and the first chapter deals with the fall of man, exegeting in slightest detail the account in the first three chapters of Genesis. In this I am seeing so much how the Law-centric SDA explanation of the fall is so horribly flawed.

Let me demonstrate with a little contest. I'll ask a question, the answer to which is so subtle I have never, ever, seen anyone point this out correctly (but maybe I've just been reading the wrong stuff). Here is the great question I will ask, and see if you get it right:

What is the first command God gave Adam?

Hint: Pay razor-sharp attention to the exact wording of Gen. 2:16.
River
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Username: River

Post Number: 5017
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Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, it wouldn't be fair to look it up, be fruitful and multiply?

Now I'll go look it up.
River
Bskillet
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Post Number: 359
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Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By all means, cheat. Technically you're right, but I should say:

What is the first command in relation to the trees?

(Message edited by bskillet on June 17, 2009)
River
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Post Number: 5018
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Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep, Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

What is your feeling on his first command skillet?
Or do you feel that 1:28 was a command?

Or are you talking about shalt not's? :-)
River
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Post Number: 5019
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Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Generally Adventist Adventist think in terms of shalt not's, and since many formers still have many of the old thinking patterns, I assume that it is the shalt not's that were on your mind.

Adventist are so stuck on the shalt not's, they never see the shalt's. There was a shalt before there was a shalt not.

"Ye shalt not eat pork lest ye rot, go bald and have too much sex." 1st Ellen, chapter two, verse six, book of none-sense. :-)
River
River
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Post Number: 5020
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Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Skillet ol chap, I'll be good.

Thou shalt not eat of the tree of good and evil?
Bskillet
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Post Number: 360
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Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 1:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's what I am writing in my book:

quote:

Eve replied, “We may eat the fruit from the trees in the garden. But about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God said, ‘You must not eat it or touch it, or you will die.’”

The dichotomy of Eve’s response is so subtle, yet so powerful, that if it escapes one’s eye in countless readings, the power with which one finally receives it is overwhelming. In the fact that they might eat every fruit of the garden, she does not say, “God said we may eat of every tree in the garden,” but simply, “We may eat the fruit from the trees in the garden.” But in God’s command, we find (Genesis 2:16-17):


quote:

And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die.”




God’s command was not merely the command not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. The text points out a truth that is often glossed-over by the Law-bound exegete: Included in the command is the command to be free to eat of every tree but one. The first command about trees that God gave to man is the command to live freely in God’s grace, in His providing. The passage undeniably includes this in the command to man: “LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat…’” “Be free! Live in My love!” It is this first command that Eve forgets.

The text makes the second command a subordinate command, subordinated by the conjunction but. God says, “But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” From there, He gives the great explanation of why. “For on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die.” If Adam were to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, he would die, and thus be unable to fulfill the first command. For man to eternally obey God’s command to live freely in His love, man would have to live eternally. As we shall see, humanity’s violation of the second command was the result of his disbelief in the first, and made his obedience to the first impossible. Even before this, we read a parallel command (Gen. 1:28):

quote:

“Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”



Adam and Eve are commanded to be fruitful and multiply, to fill the earth and subdue it, to have dominion over it. This is a command to live in the gracious providence of God, enjoying the blessings which He has given them. He then commands them note merely to receive His providence, but to see that He has provided for their needs, saying (vs. 29):

quote:

See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.




But Eve does not resort to these commands. She does not point out that, above all else, God has asked them to live in the delight of His grace. She doesn’t quote God until she gets to the forbidden fruit: “God said, ‘You must not eat it or touch it, or you will die.’” In this she simply takes for granted the love of God, His provision by grace of her needs. She does not see the grace as God’s revelation of Himself to her, but simply takes it as a state of reality, apart from God’s grace, that she may eat from the tree. She was, in a sense, praying the dinner thanksgiving prayer of Bart Simpson: “Dear God, we paid for all this stuff ourselves, so thanks for nothing.”


(Message edited by bskillet on June 17, 2009)
Bskillet
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Post Number: 361
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Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 1:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I cannot believe how baldly I have been lied to for my entire life. Gen. 1-3 is not about Law, but about Grace. Man chose to relate to God by Law (knowledge of good and evil). God wanted him to relate by His grace in relationship (tree of life): "This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and the One You have sent—Jesus Christ" (John 17:3).

The Law of Moses, then, is God's proof to mankind that the kind of relationship man demanded cannot bring life to man, but only death. No wonder Paul calls it "the ministry of condemnation" and "the ministry of death." In Romans 3 Paul is clear that the Law came to prove to man that God knew him to be a walking dead-man.

EDIT: Also, traditional analysis says Rom. 1 is written to condemn the gentile, and Rom. 2 to condemn the Jew. This is in part true, but before Jacob, all were Gentiles, not having the Law. There are awesome parallels between the fall of man in Genesis 3--and the subsequent immorality of man--and Paul's description in Rom. 1:18-32. Paul knew his Torah forward and back.

(Message edited by bskillet on June 17, 2009)
River
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Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great post Skillet, that gave me a deeper understanding of that.

I am beginning to see the way your book will lean.

Thanks for that.
River
Helovesme2
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Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 1:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eat! (from every tree but one!)
Hec
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Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And in today's language, what would be that one tree?

Hec
Helovesme2
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Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 2:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW, seems to me that not only did she take the first part of God's command for granted, she added to the second part. Do you see any 'neither shall ye touch it' in the original command?
Bskillet
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Post Number: 362
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

And in today's language, what would be that one tree?



In today's language, that tree--"Knowledge of Good and Evil"--would be the tree of attempting to live by legalism.

quote:

BTW, seems to me that not only did she take the first part of God's command for granted, she added to the second part. Do you see any 'neither shall ye touch it' in the original command?



Yeah, I saw that. I still don't now for sure what to make of it. I've read some Rabbinical interpretations that it meant that she got the command from Adam, and not from God, and thus flubbed it. I don't think that's it. It may be the attempt that we always see in Law, to add to God's commands.

(Message edited by bskillet on June 17, 2009)
River
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Post Number: 5022
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Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 4:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds to me like it was Eve's version of adding on to Gods word, didn't he put them in there to care for the garden? He didn't say not to touch it, he said they didn't have permission to eat off it.

We have to take the word as is.
River
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 10010
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Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 8:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very good insights, Brent. Interesting.
Colleen
Surfy
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Username: Surfy

Post Number: 542
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Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great points. Keep going and we will not have to buy your book.

Surfy
8thday
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Posted on Friday, June 19, 2009 - 6:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Love it!

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