| Author |
Message |
Bskillet
Registered user
Username: Bskillet
Post Number: 432
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 9:19 am: |     |
Animal, the problem comes in when Covenant Theology or SDAism or Dispensationalism or whatever, try to add the Law to the simple Gospel. It is incumbent upon us to contend for the faith delivered once for all. I prefer NCT because it is willing to let the simple Gospel be the simple Gospel, by not letting it be a convoluted path towards righteousness by perfect Law-keeping. The NT presents the Gospel as a New Covenant, and if we don't let it be a New Covenant, we open up the door for the Old Covenant to sit in its place. |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 568
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 9:36 am: | |
Bskillet...
I understand your concern...I really do.
But I really love the relationship I have with my Jesus. He has me in His arms. He will never let me go !!!
Isn't that what really matters?
To the person who knows not Christ, OCT vs NCT is not what they need to hear. They need to hear that they are a sinner and that Christ can deliver them from their sin and give him life eternal.
As for contending for the faith...
God is the source of all truth. I will let Him contend for the faith for me. I trust Him completely. He knows what to do better than I do.
My concern is for all of us to keep the gospel simple so it touches hearts that need a savior.
.....Animal...please keep the message simple |
8thday
Registered user
Username: 8thday
Post Number: 1079
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 10:29 am: | |
It gets complicated because the enemy makes it complicated. I finally realized the libraries full of endless books on theology are largely a result of 2000 years of defending against unending heretical attacks on the truth. Confusion was the aim and it was achieved. Then somewhere we got the idea that being a Christian meant having right knowledge - and forgot it's simple like Animal says- about having the right heart. I don't know how we contend for the faith and still keep it simple. I wish I did.
You might like this Animal
http://8thday4life.wordpress.com/2009/03/24/a-simple-faith/
I agree the NCT is simpler, but explaining it to others doesn't seem to be, in my experience. It gets complicated really quickly as they let all the rabbits out of the cage for you to chase. |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 570
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 11:20 am: | |
Theology isnt an invention of Satan. Theology is an invention of man. Sometimes we give Satan too much credit...But I agree strongly that theology does complicate the purity and simplicity of the gospel.
John the Baptist said...Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. Simple and to the point. No need to write volumes of books to explain that verse, is there??
As far as contending for the faith......
The best way to contend for the faith from a human standpoint ......simply LIVE the gospel truth daily thru the power of the Holy Spirit. Scripture says that those who preach the gospel should live the gospel. People might mistake the meaning of our words...but they can clearly see the life of devotion to Christ we exhibit in our daily walk with Him. Let our walk with God speak loudly for the truth of Christ.
Animal |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1724
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 1:19 pm: | |
The gift of salvation is given to those whom God chooses to give it; and although it is offered to everyone, it is not given to everyone. When God does choose to grant this gift, however, he effectively places it in the hands of his child; and once it is received, it can never be lost, stolen, or damaged. Truly, it is the gift that keeps on giving!
Having a high view of God means something more than giving glory to God, however; it means giving glory to God alone. The doctrines of grace together point to one central truth: salvation is all of grace because it is all of God; and because it is all of God, it is all for his glory. (Source: The preceding thoughts were gleaned from The Doctrines of Grace: Rediscovering the Evangelical Gospel" by Drs. James Boice and Philip Ryken)
By the way, I highly recommend and treasure this excellent book by Drs. Boice and Ryken. It is a masterpiece in the areas of Christology, hamartiology, pneumatology, and soteriology. My wife Sylvia has suggested that I get my own copy so she can continue to appreciate her many notations and underlinings. All in all, it is a great replacement for the SDA books that once dominated our library and thinking. Order your copy today and discover how you can have a greater doxology as well.
Dennis Fischer |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 269
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 5:32 pm: | |
I can't wait to ask God why He didn't save everyone if He had the capacity to do so. There is probably so much that we just can't see and know right now. I trust Him even though I just don't understand.... |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 905
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 6:26 pm: | |
Bskillet, I appreciate your explanation of Covenant Theology versus New Covenant Theology. Yes, Covenant Theology is truly a heresy and the Bible tells us to "contend earnestly for the faith." (Jude 3) |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1725
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 8:01 pm: | |
Our sovereign God would certainly be just and fair if He didn't save even one person. It is biblically clear that He didn't save even one fallen angel. The difference in treatment between angels and human beings may likely be because we are bearers of His divine image. We are the crowning jewels of His creation.
Dennis Fischer |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 271
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 8:23 am: | |
To my human mind it's fair to either save everyone or save no one. I trust God's decisions on who to save are not arbitrary. I guess this issue is why people cannot let go of the idea that humans have free will to choose God. I'm content with not knowing the answer to the dilemma for now, but can't help but be curious. |
Bskillet
Registered user
Username: Bskillet
Post Number: 434
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 8:47 am: | |
quote:To my human mind it's fair to either save everyone or save no one. I trust God's decisions on who to save are not arbitrary. I guess this issue is why people cannot let go of the idea that humans have free will to choose God. I'm content with not knowing the answer to the dilemma for now, but can't help but be curious.
I agree. I do not know why God saves some and not others. The issue is trust. A God who gave Himself for me on the Cross is a God who has demonstrated His trustworthiness. Trust does not require a perfect understanding of all the ways of God.
In the great paradox, those who are lost will know it was their own fault, and those who are saved will know it was all God's doing. It seems to me God is under no moral requirement to save anyone, because all have chosen death. So He is free to save whom He chooses. |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 355
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 12:34 pm: | |
quote:The gift of salvation is given to those whom God chooses to give it; and although it is offered to everyone, it is not given to everyone.
Is God playing games? "Here, you can have this, I offer it to you." "No, you can't have it. I won't give it to you."
When He offers something, doesn't he have the intention of giving it? Or is he lying, teasing, deceiving?
Hec |
Clintonc
Registered user
Username: Clintonc
Post Number: 38
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 1:28 pm: | |
Hec,
I don't know if this will be helpful or not, but I love Mark Martin's explanation of the problem with predestination and free-will. Imagine this, there is a doorway to heaven, and as you look into heaven through this door, at the top of the door is written this: "Come! Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life." (Rev 22)
So as you walk through this door to come, you enter in heaven. When you enter heaven, and turn around to look at the door, something is written on the top of the other side of the door: "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world" (Eph. 1)
So by our human perspective on this side of eternity, it's a "whoever" policy. All are offered eternal life. On God's perspective, on the heaven side, God's chosen us before the foundation of the world! So the question is simple: How do I know if I am chosen of God? Answer: Choose Him, then you'll know that you are.
I think it was D.L. Moody who said that he never taught predestination to unbelievers, it is a doctrine meant for believers only. |
Bskillet
Registered user
Username: Bskillet
Post Number: 435
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 1:35 pm: | |
Clinton, I like that metaphor. I have been thinking predestination is a bit like this: A man ties a rope around a donkey's neck and tries to lead the donkey by the rope.
Now the donkey might do one of two things. Either he will follow the man; or he will sit down, dig in his front hoofs, hee-aaaww and whine, and go nowhere.
Now, if the donkey does the latter, only the donkey is to blame for not getting to where the man was going to lead him. On the other hand, if the donkey goes with the man, then only the man, not the donkey, can be truly responsible for the donkey getting to the right place. There is a sense in which being chosen means being made and trained into the kind of donkey that will follow the man. We might call him a "good donkey" and give him a cube of sugar, but it is ultimate the man, his breeder and trainer and leader, who is fully responsible for the donkey getting to the right place.
I know this isn't a perfect metaphor, but I think it is a bit useful. |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 358
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 1:48 pm: | |
Brent,
This donkey had a choice. How about the other donkeys to whom the man did not tie a rope to their necks? Were they also chosen? Were they offered but not given the gift?
Hec |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10144
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 2:22 pm: | |
Hec, the thread Bskillet started in another place addresses this problem. You know what? you don't have to explain how it works. Our job is to submit to Scripture. God says to believe; our proper response is to believe. The Father draws us, and we believe.
Once a person has been born again, part of the gift of the Holy Spirit to us is His witness with our spirits that we are sons of God (Romans 8:14-16). The witness from God that we are His adopted sons comes with the knowledge that God chose us from tall eternity.
When we are born again, we are seated in Christ at God's right hand (Ephesians 2:4-7). Our spirits receive eternal life and enter eternity with Jesus even though our bodies are still decaying. Because we are already hidden with Christ in God (Col 3:3), we have spiritual understanding of some eternal realities. The knowledge of God's personal election of us is one of the gifts He gives us with our new birth.
We don't have to explain how it works—and we also can hang our hats on John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
We can rest in His own revelation of His will to us in His word.
Colleen |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 279
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 9:31 am: | |
I like Mark Martin's illustration, Clintonc. I agree that predestination is a doctrine that's very difficult for the unsaved. |
Bb
Registered user
Username: Bb
Post Number: 480
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 12:18 pm: | |
Well, if we apply John 3:16 to the donkey metaphor, it could go like this....
There is a large room full of donkeys that are going to be gassed and need someone to save them. The man goes in with the rope and lets them know he is there to save them. (Let's say they comprehend)
They either believe him and submit to having the rope placed around their neck and let the man lead them to safety or they resist and stay put and decide they don't believe that this man is really here to save them. So they were chosen to be offered and given the gift of being saved. The man knows that some of them are stubborn and will not allow him to take them to safety.
He may attempt to place the rope on the necks of those who are unsure, but if they continue to resist, eventually he will give them up to their destruction. |
