| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Isn't love and all these things in Philippians 4:8, the result of the 'power' (dunamis) of the Gospel? The Gospel is a power to all who believe, correct? So, if we believe, we recieve this power and become the 'workmanship unto good works.' Yes? No? YES! :)) God Bless, Denise | ||
| Max |
^^We must "work out" that salvation; our sanctification (fitness for heaven) comes of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit IN us.^^ Scripture does not teach this. This is a mis-interpretation of Scripture. Scripture says this: "My dear friends, as you have always obeyed -- not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence -- continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Do everything without complaining or arguing...." Philippians 2:12-13 NIV. The NIV text note to "work out your salvation" says this: "Work it out to the finish; [this is] NOT a reference to the attempt to earn one's salvation by works, but to the expression of one's salvation in spiritual growth and development. Salvation is not merely a gift received once for all; it expresses itself in an ongoing process in which the BELIEVER IS STRINUOUSLY INVOLVED (cf. Mt 24:13; 1Co 9:24-27; Heb 3:14; 6:9-11; 2Pe 1:5-8) -- the process of perseverance, spiritual growth and maturation." And the NIV text note to "fear and trembling" says this: "Not because of doubt or anxiety; rather, the reference is to an active reverence and a singlenesss of purpose in response to God's grace." In sum: 1. Salvation by grace+0 EXPRESSES itself in the lives of all believers. 2. Real faith RESPONDS to God's grace+0 by loving. -MC | ||
| Denisegilmore |
I'll be backk later..need to lay down. | ||
| Valm |
Denise, I hope you have drank your fluids and gotten good rest today. I hope you are better. Did you air out your dwelling? You didn't know you befriended a mother hen at the time did you? Take care and get better. Valerie | ||
| Max |
^^If one does not show enough "good works" in one's life, then one never really had a saving faith to begin with.^^ Patti, this is what Scripture DOES say in NASB Matthew 25: *************************** 31 ""But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 ""All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 ""Then the King will say to those on His right, "COME, YOU WHO ARE BLESSED of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 "For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you GAVE Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you INVITED Me in; 36 naked, and you CLOTHED Me; I was sick, and you VISITED Me; I was in prison, and you CAME to Me.' 37 ""Then the righteous will answer Him, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 "And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 "When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "" The King will answer and say to them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that YOU DID IT to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' 41 ""Then He will also say to those on His left, "DEPART FROM ME, ACCURSED ONES, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you GAVE Me NOTHING to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me NOTHING to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you DID NOT INVITE Me in; naked, and you DID NOT CLOTHE Me; sick, and in prison, and you DID NOT VISIT Me.' 44 ""Then they themselves also will answer, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 ""Then He will answer them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that DID NOT DO IT to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 ""These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'' *************************** Notice that the King has known ìfrom the foundation of the worldî those who are sheep and those who are goats. Therefore, it is also ìfrom the foundation of the worldî that he has judged them -- the sheep to eternal life and the goats to eternal punishment. And this is absolute scriptural proof for the truth of the statement: ìIf one does not show ... good works in one's life, then one never really had a saving faith to begin with.î Furthermore, in this example Jesus distinguishes the those who in life have accepted COSTLY / TRUE grace-plus-nothing from those who in life have accepted only CHEAP / FALSE / ìCHANGEDî [Jude 4] grace-plus-nothing. There simply is no denial that according to Scripture, Christ is IN real people by the Holy Spirit. It is ìChrist in youî who is ìthe hope of gloryî (NIV Colossians 1:27). Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
^^Isn't love and all these things in Philippians 4:8, the result of the 'power' (dunamis) of the Gospel?^^ Absolutely! A Spirit-filled life is a dynamic (dunamis) or powerful life that is the inevitable result of real or costly grace plus nothing. | ||
| Max |
^^Brinsmead's "Judged by the Gospel^^ as an ^^excellent dissertation^^ may show ^^how the SDA church in reality touts a Catholic gospel.^^ But I've read it, and I can tell you that it does nothing to contradict the scriptural truth that grace-plus-nothing transforms (2 Corinthians 3:18) lives by virtue of Christ's Holy Spirit WITHIN the believer. | ||
| Max |
LUTHERANS HAVE DRUNK THE POISON OF CHEAP GRACE THAT HAS KILLED THE LIFE OF FOLLOWING CHRIST ^^We Lutherans have gathered like eagles round the carcass of cheap grace, and there we have drunk of the poison which has killed the life of following Christ. It is true, of course, that we have paid the doctrine of pure grace divine honors unparalleled in Christendom, in fact we have exalted that doctrine to the position of God himself. Everywhere Lutherís formula has been repeated, but its truth perverted into self-deception. So long as our Church holds the correct doctrine of justification, there is no doubt whatever that she is a justified Church! So they said, thinking that we must vindicate our Lutheran heritage by making this grace available on the cheapest and easiest terms. To be ìLutheranî must mean that we leave the following of Christ to legalists, Calvinists and enthusiasts -- and all this for the sake of grace. We justified the world, and condemned as heretics those who tried to follow Christ. The result was that a nation became Christian and Lutheran, but at the cost of true discipleship. The price it was called upon to pay was all too cheap. Cheap grace had won the day.^^ Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.53 | ||
| Patti |
Obviously the majority of people here are not satisfied with the hearing of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ. I will be silent now. But I ask the reader to browse through the multitude of posts written in an attempt to refute my words and to answer this single question: Upon whom do these multitudinous post focus? Upon the historical saving work of Jesus Christ, or upon what happens in the believer? I cannot help but wonder why the presentation of the Gospel, the fact that Christ has done everything necessary for our full salvation, does not satisfy many Christians. The attitude I have found among SDAs, and among many professed Christians, is the "Yes, but," attitude. They acknowledge, Sure, Christ is our salvation, but... And then they constantly turn the subject around to themselves. They admit that those who speak of Jesus Christ and Him crucified are presenting the Gospel, but it does not see to be "enough" for them. If it were, they would not seek to constantly refocus us upon their characters. And the ironic thing is that the only way people will hear and accept the Gospel is by believing in the historic work of Jesus Christ in our behalf. Why, then, I ask you, should we ever speak of anything else? Is the Gospel not a sufficiently amazing, thrilling, exciting, awe-inspiring, and spiritually uplifting message that it eclipses all else? No one has yet answered this: Why would we even take the time to "testify" to our filthy rags righteousness when we have a message of salvation so powerful? Is it because we think we have spoken enough of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, so that we need to move on to "more important" things? I bid you adieu again. It is very sad that the Gospel is not welcomed by many posters here. But God must be leading me elsewhere. Why is it so difficult to find a group people who are excited about being fully forgiven and reconciled to GOd because of Christ's saving act? I suppose it is because your righteousness far exceeds mine. But I do know myself; and I have to be honest with myself. There is nothing that I have or can produce that is not totally permeated with selfishness. My only hope is the imputation of a righteousness in which I had no part; a righteousness that is kept safe in heaven; a righteousness that is flawless and without spot. Jesus is my righteousness. And not mine only, but all who TRUST in His faithfulness. May God bless you and lead us all into a deeper understanding of God's great mercy in forgiving us and accepting us sinful humans for the sake of the doing and dying of His Son, Jesus Christ. With love, Patti | ||
| Max |
^^Obviously the majority of people here are not satisfied with the hearing of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ.^^ Dear Patti, FAFF is not a political matter. Majority rule does not prevail. Scripture alone is determinative. Your views and points have been heard and answered. You are also free to hear and answer views and points made by others. One does not do well to characterize people who do not agree as people who aren't "satisfied with the hearing of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ." You are welcome to post here or not. Blessings to you always, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
^^Upon whom do these multitudinous post focus?^^ This is hardly the point. The only point worth considering is, "Upon whom do the multitudinous scriptural texts focus?^^ | ||
| Max |
Scripture focuses upon the historical saving work of Jesus Christ that is so powerful that something powerful happens in the believer. | ||
| Max |
Patti, how do you know that ^^the presentation of the Gospel, the fact that Christ has done everything necessary for our full salvation, does not satisfy many Christians^^? | ||
| Max |
^^The attitude I have found among SDAs, and among many professed Christians, is the "Yes, but," attitude. They acknowledge, Sure, Christ is our salvation, but... And then they constantly turn the subject around to themselves.^^ Can you provide an example of someone on this website who is doing this? | ||
| Max |
^^They admit that those who speak of Jesus Christ and Him crucified are presenting the Gospel, but it does not see to be "enough" for them. If it were, they would not seek to constantly refocus us upon their characters.^^ I don't believe that you can demonstrate the factuality of this opinion as it relates to this website. Can you? | ||
| Max |
^^The only way people will hear and accept the Gospel is by believing in the historic work of Jesus Christ in our behalf.^^ I believe that except for two persons all who has posted here recently and have stated their faith, have heard and accepted the historic work of Jesus Christ in our behalf. | ||
| Valm |
Patti, I do not think you will ever find a place where all will fully agree. Full agreement should not be a criterea of fellowship and healthy discussion. I would never cast judgement on your belief and hope that you do not on mine. We are all people and I am forsure full comprehension is beyond all of us. My brother shared a wonderful illustration of how he feels about his works in relationship to God. His children draw a picture and say "This is for you Daddy." He looks at it and sees the sweetness and the beauty of his child and the efort they put into the drawing. He tells them how beautiful it is and points out areas in which he sees they are improoving in their work. He shares with me that by all means his children's artwork is not perfect in the viewpoint of the "artistic community" but it is absolutely perfect to him. In his great love for his children he sees their work as perfect. Yes my accomplishments in this life are as filthy rags to Christ's righteousness. But in Gods great love for me he has provided that I am perfect in Christ. Yes my salvation is secured by Christ and he wishes more for me. He wishes that I have a full and abundant life. He is changing me. Not I but Christ. . . . . What happens to the believer is the wonderful result of the love of Christ. Why do Christian people wish to testify to the positive changes in their life since accepting Jesus? For myself what is the point if we all go to heaven in the same miserable state we begin in and that there is no growth? Salvation and eternal life without healing might not be such a good thing Patti. Is there going to be some magical (against our free will) change in our attitudes and behaviors that will prevent the new heaven and earth from becoming the messed up state this earth is in now? I am concerned about your opening statement that obviously the majority of people here are not satisfied with. . . . The overall tone sounds like if one does not believe like you there is obviously something wrong. Your perspective is valued Patti even if we part agreement. I hope that you can respect mine as much as I do yours. | ||
| Max |
Why should we ever speak of anything other than the historic work of Jesus Christ in our behalf? Why would Paul say, "We, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being TRANSFORMED into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit"? Is he not speaking of the historic work of Jesus Christ in our behalf? For is this spiritual reality -- transformation -- not the inevitable result of that historic work? | ||
| Max |
^^Is the Gospel not a sufficiently amazing, thrilling, exciting, awe-inspiring, and spiritually uplifting message that it eclipses all else?^^ The gospel does not ECLIPSE all else, it ENABLES all else. | ||
| Max |
^^Why would we even take the time to "testify" to our filthy rags righteousness when we have a message of salvation so powerful?^^ Why do you think that people on this website have been testifying to their own filthy-rags righteousness? ^^Is it because we think we have spoken enough of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, so that we need to move on to "more important" things?^^ Why do you think that anyone here thinks anything is more important than Jesus Christ and Him crucified? |
