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Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 554
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 5:50 am: |     |
I just finished reading an earlier article from Proclamation! by Edwin Reiner on the Covenants. He is SDA and they printed an article from him.
http://lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation20_02.html
His article is quite confusing and took me a long time to digest and look up the texts he used. I marked it up profusely indicating "circular reasoning" and "wrongly used texts".
His premise is that there is an Everlasting Covenant running parallel with the OC and the NC. And the Everlasting Covenant was put into place before the creation of the world. According to how I understand his article he says that the OC and NC are subsets of the everlasting covenant.
My question is what is the everlasting covenant? Or is there such a thing?
I did find some texts that do mention an everlasting covenant, but don't seem to be attached to anything specific (at least that I can find).
1 "Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.
2 Why spend money on what is not bread,
and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.
3 Give ear and come to me;
hear me, that your soul may live.
I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
my faithful love promised to David. (Is. 55:1-3)
Isaiah 54,55 are interesting chapters and I'm not sure if I can fully discern the context that Is. 55:1-3 is coming from. Is. 53 is definitely a prophesy about Christ. Is. 54 talks about the future glory of Zion. Is. 55 is an Invitation and Is. 56 refers to salvation for others.
"For I, the Lord, love justice; I hate robbery and iniquity, in my faithfulness I will reward them and make an everlasting covenant with them. (Is. 61:8)
I found texts that refer to an "everlasting covenant" that are not attached to something specific like the covenant with Noah, or with Abraham (at least that I can find). Is. 55:3; Is. 61:8; Ez. 37:26; Heb. 13:20.
20May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, (Heb. 13:20).
The Heb. verse seems to refer to the New Covenant.
Question:
1.) What is the everlasting covenant? Is there such a thing? Or is that something referring to the "length" of some of the specific covenants?
2.) Is the everlasting covenant in Heb. 13:20 mean the New Covenant?
I'm just curious, because I had never heard of an "everlasting covenant" before reading the article. I knew of the old covenant, new covenant, Abrahamic covenant, covenant with Noah. But is there some overarching covenant? My hunch is no.
Keri |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 555
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 7:08 am: | |
Ding, ding, ding. I believe the Is. text and the Heb. text are referring to the New Covenant in Christ - and referring to it as the "everlasting covenant" or "eternal covenant".
Reiner's article was really, really hard to read. In the same issue is a rebuttal by Dale - which I have yet to read.
If you have any further thoughts ...
I had just never heard of what Reiner was talking about ... |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 428
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 9:29 pm: | |
Keri
This formeradventist website has a link to a website called Sending the Light. I ordered Stonecutter's Bride and found it to be extremely helpful in understanding the covenants. Well worth the cost, in my opinion. I ordered the books and also the CDs.
Hope you find it helpful too.
Bob |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9915
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 11:47 pm: | |
Keri, God's promises to Abraham and the patriarchs (see Gen 12, 15, 17, for starters) are enduring. They were unconditional, and God will fulfill them regardless of people's behavior or belief or unbelief. Romans 11 stresses this point. God promises Abraham Seed, land, and blessing. He will complete these.
The Mosaic Covenant was given to Israel; it did not replace God's promises to Abraham; it was a national covenant given to the nation of Israel and established its rules and culture and worship and further established God's promises to Abraham by giving Israel the sacrifices and the priesthood.
The old covenant was fulfilled in Jesus, and the new covenant was instituted at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit wrote God's law on human hearts. This covenant is a further fulfillment of God's original promises/covenant with Abraham and the patriarchs.
There are still details of God's promises to Abraham that are being fulfilled. This fact, however, does not make God's covenant with Abraham the ONLY covenant, as Adventists often argue. It was the foundational covenant that contained the seeds and certain promises of God's over-arching intentions for humanity and for israel. The old covenant was not in conflict with the Abrahamic; neither is the new covenant. They are successive fulfillments of the Abrahamic covenant, and Galatians 3 confirms that the old covenant was time-specific.
I agree—Reiner's article is very confusing. He essentially says that the new covenant is not fulfilled until Jesus comes again. The Bible is clear that the new covenant is already in effect.
Colleen |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 563
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 6:05 pm: | |
Colleen,
Thanks for your post. If I might summarize my understanding, Reiner's points, and ask a couple more questions.
The Adventist understanding (according to Reiner's article) is that the Godhead (sorry, about using that word - but since I'm referring to the SDA view) formed an everlasting covenant before the creation of the world between themselves. In that everlasting covenant was God's law or 10 commandments. Reiner seems to indicate that there was a covenant with Adam (I don't see this in scripture) and successive covenants (I do see this) - all a part of this "everlasting covenant" before the world was created (don't see an everlasting covenant before creation). He seems to imply that each covenant "built" on the previous one thus verifying the 10C and its role in the "everlasting covenant". Though Adventists pick and choose which parts of the OC or "law" they will still keep - dietary laws and the 10C.
Now, this is how I'm understanding what you posted and scripture.
The Abrahamic covenant was as you said; seed, land, and blessings. The Mosaic Covenant was given to Abraham's offspring, Israel. The Mosaic Covenant was time - sensitive and was specifically given to Israel. The Mosaic covenant includes most of Lev. and Deut. The OC/Mosaic covenant was fulfilled by Christ on the cross. The New Covenant is that the Law is written on our hearts and ratified by belief (just like Abraham was counted righteous for his belief) in Jesus. The NC and the Abrahamic covenant are different covenants - but belief is a part of both of these covenants.
QUESTIONS:
1.) You said that the NC was instituted at Pentecost. Is there something in scripture that speaks to that? I thought the NC was put into affect at Jesus' death on the cross? And if not then my question is what was the difference between Jesus' breathing the Holy Spirit on the disciples (John 20:22) and Pentecost where the Holy Spirit was poured out?
I realize the disciples were all Jews, but at Pentecost both Jews and Gentiles received the Holy Spirit.
2.) Am I to understand that the covenant with Abraham still has "things to be fulfilled"?
3.) And circumcision was a part of the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenant ... not the NC. Circumcision was the entrance sign to both the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenant?
I'll probably post a new thread about Spiritual Israel (as this was also mentioned in Reiner's article and I know it is an SDA understanding). I did do a search of the forum for those two words, Spiritual Israel. I don't see the words "Spiritual Israel" used in scripture. There is Israel, Gentile, and the church. Am I correct in that? Spiritual Israel is a man made word (as far as I can tell), but the idea of Gentiles being grafted onto the true vine - might constitute "spiritual Israel".
I'm sure I have much more reading to do ...
I just want to be clear what scripture teaches and what the SDA view is.
Thanks,
Keri |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9920
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 11:12 pm: | |
Keri, Yes, the new covenant actually "began" at the cross when the curtain was torn, but the resurrection is what ushered in eternal life and the death of death. The cross alone did not place us IN the new covenant. Jesus had to rise from the dead and ascend to the Father.
Jesus told His disciples that the Holy Spirit could not come unless He ascended. He also told His disciples that they were not to go anywhere until the Holy Spirit came. He had already given them the commission to go into all the world and make disciples, but they were to sit tight in Jerusalem and do nothing about fulfilling their commission until the Holy Spirit came.
At Pentecost,the indwelling inaugurated the reality of the NC in believers' lives. Only when the Holy Spirit came and broke the power of sin and gave them living spirits—new life in Jesus—were they able to begin fulfilling their commission. Only when the Holy Spirit indwelt them was the Law written on their hearts.
Yes, there are still things in the Abrahamic covenant to be fulfilled. Romans 11 tells us that God's promises to the patriarchs still stand; Israel will experience what God has promised.
Yes, circumcision was the entrance sign to both covenants. Israel saw them as inseparable—and indeed, they were inseparable to Israel. Now, however, the OC is fulfilled in Jesus, and in Him the NC and the Abrahamic covenant are inseparable. This is an example of true progressive revelation; God has successively revealed His purposes and Himself, and now, in Jesus, He has revealed the miracle of what He promised to Abraham. And there is still more fulfillment to be experienced—Israel will experience the NC as God promised. The details or "how" are indistinct, but the promises are clear.
Colleen |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 566
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Monday, June 01, 2009 - 3:45 am: | |
My, oh, my. I really did not understand Pentecost or it's significance. I guess it will take a life time to undo all the indoctrination and relearn Biblical teachings.
I remember reading last fall about the Feast of Weeks in Lev. 23 and how that was a celebration commemorating what was to come - Pentecost.
I just didn't see the significance as attached to the New Covenant.
Thanks.
Keri |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 482
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Monday, June 01, 2009 - 8:57 am: | |
Animal isnt the sharpest tool in the toolbox, but....
The only covenant that really counts is the Covenant between God and myself. I think that is what scripture means when it says to work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling. I cant have faith for you and you cant have faith for me. Its all about my own personal relationship with God. GOD saves people, not nations or kingdoms or tribes. I spend no time studying all the different covenants mentioned in scripture. My focus is my personal walk with the Lord. In the end, that is all that really matters to God. Do I know Him? Do I trust Him and love Him with ALL my heart?
.....Animal...its All about Christ and our relationship with Him |
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