| Author | Message | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 511 Registered: 2-2008  |
I've been thinking about this for a few weeks. When I look at the sanctuary services, I see the pattern that the priests would only come before God after they were "clean". They only came before Him if they're sins had been atoned for. I believe that the only way I can come before God in prayer is because Jesus, through His death, has atoned me and I am forgiven of my sins. I come before God with a clean heart, humbly and grateful because of what Christ has done for me. So here's my question: If you believe in the Investigative Judgment... if you don't know whether Christ has gone through your records and has atoned you of your sins or has blotted them out completely, how does an Adventist come before God in prayer? If his sins haven't been completely forgiven yet because Jesus hasn't reached his records... his heart is defiled. How is he able to come before God? Is there a loophole? Am I missing something? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. ~vivian | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 336 Registered: 8-2008 |
I think the issue is bigger than prayers being heard. The word Paul uses for justification means roughly "declared innocent." Obviously, an Adventist cannot believe he or she has been "declared innocent" if his or her sins have not yet been blotted, and he or she has not yet been declared right before God. An Adventist cannot believe he or she is right with God so long as they cling to the IJ doctrine. So if I am not right with God, I have not been adopted by Him. If, as the IJ teaches, God does not declare me to be right with him until I have demonstrated that I can render to Him an acceptable righteousness of my own to Him, then neither I nor anyone else has a snowball's chance of ever being saved. Christ, as God on earth, demonstrated that the only righteousness acceptable to God is the righteousness of God. God is completely fulfilled in Himself. No other righteousness can fulfill the Trinitarian God but the righteousness the Persons of the Trinity render to each other. Thus, righteousness can never come by my works, but only by God's gracious declaration that I am right with him. The problem with Adventism, as the problem with all other cultic false gospels, is that they fail to understand the righteousness of God. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4856 Registered: 9-2006  |
I am convinced in my heart the Adventist bows down to a God and preys to a God that does not exist. Or more succinctly, a God of his/her own manufacture, or yet still more succinctly a God manufactured in the mind of their prophet, and when they meet the real true God, it may be too late. I don't say this in a 'good on me and bad on them' in a prideful sort of manor. They need to take warning though and find the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I think more than a failure to understand the righteousness of God, is the failure to seek the true God with a humble heart and out of their need of him. I doubt if a cultic denominational pride is going to be sufficient covering for our sins when we appear before him whom we have to do. I know this ain't going to sit well with some who are on this forum today with husbands and wives still in Adventism, but at least I am being honest and willing to face hard facts. I don't believe some of you are, you want to smooth it over so it smells better. I have Adventist friends whom I love, but I am honestly afraid for them when they come before a just God, one that is real and not hollowed out of a piece of imagination. Now I am going back into my silent mode. Thanks a bunch Lord for putting such a need to answer when I wanted to be quite and do my own thing for awhile. I really want to sulk and feel sorry for myself a few days. River | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 253 Registered: 10-2008  |
I can't remember where she said it but EGW said one day we won't have an intercessor-this is of course goes against Hebrews (11? I think) where it says He EVER lives to intercede for us. Vivian I think that is a great observation, how can we approach God if we have not been made clean first as the priests did in the OT? The IJ ignores that we are made clean through the sacrifice of Christ and not only that Jesus made the sacrifice once and for all and sat down not like the priests who had to make sacrifices over and over again. thank God the veil has been lifted Enoch | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 921 Registered: 11-2007  |
This verse came to mind: Heb 10:18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have CONFIDENCE to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, Heb 10:20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, Heb 10:21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in FULL ASSURANCE OF FAITH, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. I don't know how anyone reads Hebrews and hangs on to the IJ. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 520 Registered: 10-2008 |
Vivian, I never had thought of what you have said before. Thank you for your insightful post and question. Keri | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 297 Registered: 4-2007 |
Good question. This is the best I can come up with. WISTFULLY!! The reality is that they can’t be considered a believer until the IJ is completed (IF they pass, which they’ll never know this side of the grave). So How does one with zero assurance pray to God, and why would God bother to respond? And how do you praise God when you’re the one doing the saving? The IJ heresy is a ‘system’ that guarantees failure, based on the unscriptural concept that salvation is synergistic, that God does some of the work but the rest is up to man, as opposed to monergistic salvation, God alone saves. Those who depend on their works to ‘complete’ their salvation either conclude that their works are never enough and never good enough (despair) or rationalize that it’s not the perfection of their works but rather it’s their ‘good intentions’ (like ‘keeping’ Sabbath) that God looks at (self righteousness). From the very beginning Adventist theology has reflected their belief that man is not totally sinful (hence the ‘works’ by which man earns salvation) and by inference, God is not 100% sovereign, thus the core of Adventism is synergistic or works based salvation (the IJ is the result, not the cause) which ultimately negates the necessity of Christ’s atonement. Repudiation of Ellen is not THE solution, repudiation of synergistic salvation is, otherwise you just substitute one set of problems with another. | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 427 Registered: 1-2006  |
Vivian You make a good point. When the sinner brought a lamb to be sacrificed, the priest examined the LAMB. It had to be perfect, without blemish. The guilt of the sinner, who brought the lamb as his substitute, was never in question. So the scrutiny, the investigation, if you will, was in regard to the qualifications of the lamb, not the guilt of the sinner! John said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!" Jesus is our substitute! We rest in his finished work. Bob | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 464 Registered: 7-2008  |
Jonvil... Awesome post my friend...concise and accurate indeed. To me, as a child of God, you can have Full assurance of salvation. If one believes that they have something to contribute to their salvation, then they really dont understand the good news of the gospel truth. The only thing I can offer to God is my sin. As far as the IJ is concerned... Exactly what would be the purpose of the IJ? What does God need to find out?? Doesnt God know His sheep?? He said He did and that is good enuff for this Animal. Why would He need to examine the records of His children? Does God have a memory problem? The Lord has no reason to investigate anything or anybody. He is the Creator of all. He is Supreme in all the Universe. And I love Him so VERY much !!!! ...Animal..sounds like Adventists dont trust God. | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 167 Registered: 3-2009 |
Animal, I agree with you. However, remember SDA theology goes something like this: God is on trial before the entire universe! He has to demonstrate his fairness and goodness to all the "watching, unfallen" worlds and anyone else who could possibly question Him. The IJ is not for His benefit, but ours!! So, even though He knows everything, He has to keep very accurate records and go through "due process" and proper procedures to ensure transparency in the salvation decisions He makes. Remember, God must answer to humans for all His actions...yada, yada....  | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 512 Registered: 2-2008 |
BSkillet - If justification means "declared innocent", yet an Adventist is not declared innocent until Jesus has blotted the sins from his record... how can they believe that they are a part of the remnant church and not be justified at the same time? It is these concepts that boggle my mind... they are the remnant but yet are not justified? How do they rationalize that? Bobj - The fact about the priest examining the lamb to make sure it had no blemishes... I hadn't processed that before. amazing! So by believing in the IJ that tells them that their sins were not blotted out by the sacrifice of the Lamb says many things... Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough because He still has to blot out sins, Christ's sinless body wasn't spotless enough because He still has to blot out sins, His blood wasn't enough to blot out our sins... it is as River says... a god manufactured by their prophet. I still don't know how they can rationalize that they can come before our Holy God if they don't believe their sins have been blotted out. I think this is why they tied a rope around the priest's leg... in case the priest wasn't right before God and he was destroyed. ~vivian | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 337 Registered: 8-2008 |
I don't think they do rationalize it. I don't think most SDAs have any understanding of what justification means. Paul is not well understood in Adventism. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1446 Registered: 6-2006  |
I've been hanging around CARM (I'm just about done again for awhile), and it never ceases to amaze me how the SDA's will argue for the IJ to the death. Besides being completely unbiblical, and besides so many scriptures which contradict it, it's just such a hopeless message! Why would anyone want to hold on to it? Is there a fear of contradicting the almighty prophetess? Great thread Viv!  me | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9884 Registered: 12-2003  |
Interesting thread! Vivian, exactly. The issue with the IJ is, primarily, that it is founded on the belief that Jesus did not finish the atonement. Faith in Jesus is not enough. The IJ is basically "Catholic" in that it demands perfection and good behavior--not to mention the recall and repentance of every single sin in order to be forgiven. In other words, we can't be saved unless we are able to confess every sin we ever commit (utterly impossible) and behave perfectly (utterly impossible). Praise God for Jesus and for His 100% completed work! Colleen (Message edited by Colleentinker on May 25, 2009) | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 472 Registered: 7-2008 |
For a period of 2500 years, from Adam to Moses, there was no tabernacle into which to take confessed sins, and no Aaronic priesthood to receive or carry the sins to any place, and according to S.D.A. teachings Christ had not yet entered upon His duties as priest; yet the old worthies received pardon and peace. When Abel brought his offering to the Lord do you think he had any idea of sending a bundle of sins somewhere to be put in cold storage for 6000 years? And if he did, where did he send them and how did they get there? There was no sanctuary on earth and according to the denominational teaching the sanctuary in heaven was padlocked for four thousand years during and after Abel made his offering. When Abel or any other penitent sinner brought his lamb to God he did it because he recognized that he was a sinner and because he was a sinner under penalty of death. His only means of escaping this penalty was thru a substitute; so when he offered his lamb, he did it as an acknowledgement of his guilt and as an expression of his faith in the promised death of the Son of God. Paul tells us that "By faith Abel . . . obtained witness that he was righteous." And this was without an Investigative Judgment. The childishness of making sin a commodity that can be carried from one place to another and stacked up like wheat in either earth or heaven, has no parallel in religious literature. Sin is a condition, not a commodity. Of course Jesus bore our sins, but not in the sense in which He bore the cross upon which He was crucified. Yes, Isaiah says "The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." 53:6 ************************************************************************************************** The above passages are not mine. I found them on the internet. those words were penned by a person by the name of E.S. Ballenger. Animal thought you might enjoy them. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 853 Registered: 7-2005  |
Colleen, you said the problem with the IJ is that it is founded on the belief...etc. Actually, the problem with the IJ is that it is founded on UNBELIEF. Somewhere in Revelation it says that the fearful and unbelieving will not have any part in the kingdom of God. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2767 Registered: 10-2004  |
Great point, Honestwitness! Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9898 Registered: 12-2003 |
So true, Honestwitness. Unbelief sums up the IJ, the identifying mark of Adventism. Colleen | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 424 Registered: 7-2004 |
In thinking about the sins of Abel and the old testament saints, I believe that I was taught that when Jesus died on the cross, the graves were opened and all the righteous walked around the earth and then ascended with Jesus. That's why my mom thinks those people are in heaven. (not because their spirits went to be with Jesus) My question is, where did I get that from? Is it Biblical or egw? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4872 Registered: 9-2006 |
BB, Here is the scripture: Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. What you are talking about is probably an Ellen-ism and Adventist assumption. It just says 'many' not 'all. Jeremy probably knows where it's at. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2768 Registered: 10-2004 |
I'm not sure she taught that it was "all"--but the part about them ascending with Jesus (and thus being raised with glorified bodies) is not Biblical and comes directly from EGW. Jeremy | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 475 Registered: 7-2008 |
What if the President of the General Conference publically stated he no longer believed the doctrine of the Investigative Judgement anymore? How long until he was removed from office? ....Animal, the curious one | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6987 Registered: 3-2004  |
That is something only God knows. I would like to see that happen also. Diana L, another curious one | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 527 Registered: 2-2008 |
Animal... did you happen to see the April Fool's joke my friend Marcel wrote on Reinventing the SDA wheel? Did anyone else catch it? ~vivian |
