| Author | Message | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 96 Registered: 2-2006 |
I think I have been taught that it was God's intention that Israel should not keep the truth of His love to themselves, but share it with the pagan nations around them and that it was because they were not faithful in doing this (they were selfish with His benevolence) that is the reason why the Gospel was taken from them and they were rejected for the Gentiles. I am looking for the source of this belief. I thought it was in the Bible, but I can't find it in this form. I find where the blessings of God upon Israel are to make the nations acknowledge that He is sovereign. (This is different, it is not something that is incumbent upon Israel to do.) I find where, because they have rejected Jesus the Gospel has gone to the Gentiles. Neither of these express the belief I am attempting to document. This is, rather, about evangelizing the nations to worship the true God. Can Anyone Point Me To The Source, Scripture? Ellen? SDA Lore? Pegg  **I have also posted this question at CARM. My apologies to those who may have seen it there. Thanks for your reply in either place. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9855 Registered: 12-2003  |
I don't know, Pegg. This concept is not biblical; people are disciplined by God for unbelief, not for failure to do work. I don't know about a possible source, although it sounds very "ellenesque". Jeremy? Gilbert? Anyone? Colleen | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 242 Registered: 10-2008  |
Wow Pegg, I wish I had more time to put my 2 cents in but my summary would be to say that God's intention for Israel was to show His sovereignty. Genesis to Revelation is about His sovereignty. Forgive me for not immediatly having all the scriptural referrences but when Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden, God promised that there would be enmity between the seed of the woman and the devil; skip forward to Abraham and God said He would bless the world through Abraham. Skip forward again to the new testament and we are told that not only is Israel God's children but so are we. when Israel left Egypt, God told them specifically to wipe out/conquer the land not intermarry and unite with the people of Canaan. Yet He said I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. (Deut 28 I think) Rahab, was witness to the power of God and surrendered to Him and thereby she and her family was saved. (Joshua chapters 1-6 I believe) God sent spies/scouts into the city yet in His sovereign purpose, people were saved and one of them became an ancestor of Jesus. Even when Israel was in disobedience people were drawn to Him and His sovereign will was manifested such as when Nebuchadnezzar wrote one of the chapters (4??) of Daniel and experienced the chastening of God when God took away his sanity. Paul in his epistles repeatedly states that the gospel was to the Jew first and then to the gentiles. The gospel is still for the seed of Israel as well as us through faith by grace (way too many things to flesh out but it's midnight here and my brain is tired) Enoch (Message edited by psalm107v2 on May 17, 2009) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2750 Registered: 10-2004  |
Yes, it comes straight from Ellen. I think I saw a specific quote about it the other day, but I'm not sure where it is (I think it might have been from The Desire of Ages). In fact, Jesus says the opposite, that the Jews "travel[ed] around on sea and land to make one proselyte;" (Matthew 23:15 NASB). Jeremy | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 100 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thanks you guys, I have a reason for bringing this up, but I need that quote from Ellen to flesh it out. Jeremy - Do you remember any of the key words? I can't come up with something that will work in the search engine. Thanks Pegg | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2752 Registered: 10-2004 |
Pegg, Unfortunately, I don't think I can remember the exact key words. I was able to find this though, which I don't think is the quote we're looking for, but it does allude to the idea: http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/gateway.dll/egw-comp/section00000.htm/book01247.htm/chapter01251.htm And actually, I'm not sure whether or not she said that it was the reason why they were rejected for the Gentiles. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 18, 2009) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2753 Registered: 10-2004 |
Here's another quote that I just found: "In the years that followed the occupation of the Promised Land, the beneficent designs of Jehovah for the salvation of the heathen were almost wholly lost sight of, and it became necessary for Him to set forth His plan anew. "All the ends of the world," the psalmist was inspired to sing, "shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before Thee." "Princes shall come out of Egypt; Ethiopia shall soon stretch out her hands unto God." "The heathen shall fear the name of the Lord, and all the kings of the earth Thy glory." "This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the Lord. For He hath looked down from the height of His sanctuary; from heaven did the Lord behold the earth; to hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death; to declare the name of the Lord in Zion, and His praise in Jerusalem; when the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the Lord." Psalms 22:27; 68:31; 102:15, 18-22. 371 {PK 370.1} "Had Israel been true to her trust, all the nations of earth would have shared in her blessings. But the hearts of those to whom had been entrusted a knowledge of saving truth, were untouched by the needs of those around them. As God's purpose was lost sight of, the heathen came to be looked upon as beyond the pale of His mercy. The light of truth was withheld, and darkness prevailed. The nations were overspread with a veil of ignorance; the love of God was little known; error and superstition flourished. {PK 371.1}" (Message edited by Jeremy on May 18, 2009) | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 101 Registered: 2-2006 |
Okay, thanks, Jeremey. This isn't exactly it but is very close. The part I was looking for was that God had instructed Isreal to actively share His truth and love with the nations - in other words to engage in evangelism, making believers, - prior to the New Covenant age. (This is different from God demonstrating his power, benevolence, love through Israel while Israel is passive.) I believe Paul says the opposite. I've got to go right now, but I'll be back later to make the point. Thanks again - if anyone comes up with anymore related quotes, please post them. I very much don't like to misrepresent what she has said. Pegg | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 610 Registered: 5-2002 |
In addition to mixing Ellenisms with Scripture, Adventism also mixes in a few traditional cultural interpretations of Ellenisms. Some things in Adventism didn't come directly from Ellen, but have been extrapolated from her and passed across generations of Adventist tradition. Cottage cheese loaf is a classic example... ;>) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9864 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ha! Freeatlast, I love how you make it practical! Great example, and great point! Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 480 Registered: 10-2008 |
Freeatlast, You mean Special K loaf? Keri | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 611 Registered: 5-2002 |
Keri, that's an even better example! The K is for "Kellogg" and he was once an Adventist ;>) Here is a good example of how Adventism extrapolates certain traditions from Ellen's writings: Ellen wrote: "We all entered the cloud together, and were seven days ascending to the sea of glass..."{Mar 305.2} All of us formers know the traditional story of how we would spend Sabbath on some distant world during this 7-day trip to Heaven. But you won't find that in Ellen's writings. It's just Adventist urban myth that has become as ingrained in Adventist thinking as if it had come from Ellen's own pen. (Message edited by freeatlast on May 20, 2009) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6933 Registered: 3-2004  |
Ah schucks, I thought that came from EGW - a seven day trip and stopping somewhere to spend the sabbath. I can't blame her for that any more!! Diana L | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 607 Registered: 10-2006 |
Cottage cheese loaf and Special K loaf are supposed to be really good. I know there are people with recipes that they say are the best ones ever. Coming in as an adult, I could never figure out why people liked them so much. I tried them at potluck a few times. YUCK! (My apologies to those of you who grew up on the stuff and love it.) | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 486 Registered: 10-2008 |
Freeatlast, Thank you for expounding on what you were saying. Yes, I am familiar with the 7-day trip. I really thought that was an EGW comment. Interesting - I wonder how many "others" like that I have somehow believed . Keri | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1592 Registered: 5-2007  |
When you mention that the "K" is for Kellogg, keep in mind that the reference is to William K Kellogg, not either of his SDA doctor brothers. W.K. Kellogg was kicked out of the SDA church for "worldlism" because he insisted on running his company in a business like way. Among other things, his brother John didn't get along with him for similar reasons. One of the missing details of SDA history is that William had as much or more to do with the discovery of corn flakes as John. Their brother, Dr. Merritt Kellogg, had a hard time attempting to get everybody to like each other. Even went against Ellen in their defense. Fearless Phil | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 394 Registered: 2-2003  |
Hi Pegg, I am pretty sure the idea that God: "instructed Israel to actively share His truth and love with the nations" is not in the Bible. I have come across similar teachings, however, and I won't have got it from Ellen, never having been SDA. Of couse, Ellen did absorb a lot of generally accepted 19th century religious concepts into her works, so it could just be one of those, and not necessarily Biblical. The only things that come to mind are: Exodus 19:5-6 - "Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of the nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." As a priest is a mediator between man and God, and the whole nation were to be priests, then who were they to be priests for if not the nations? I know it is a bit tenuous, but Peter says something very similar in 1Peter 2:9, now referring to the church (under the new covenant). Also, some of the prophets were given messages for other nations, not just Israel. God's call to Jeremiah includes: "I appointed you as a prophet to the nations" (Jer 1:5). Most of the messages seem to have been about judgement though :-) Anyway, maybe the idea comes from passages such as these. And Ellen embelished it. God bless, Adrian | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 395 Registered: 2-2003 |
Even I have heard that one about stopping off for the Sabbath on the way to heaven!! | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2012 Registered: 8-2004  |
Stopping off for a Sabbath is how everyone who is 'saved' will managed to be a Sabbathkeeper for at least one day before they arrive in heaven - or at least that's how I was told. | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 103 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thanks for all of the thought you are giving it. Please continue to post anything you think of. I haven't had time to post anything substantial, and wont until after the weekend. I've gotten a couple more directions to look in on CARM. Then I hope to get my thoughts in order. Hi Doc! I didn't know you were a never-been. It's clear that she was heavily influenced. It can be difficult to sort it out. Pegg | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1512 Registered: 11-2005 |
Those are some amazing quotes! Gilbert |
