| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9869 Registered: 12-2003  |
I've been out attending to my mom, who is actually improving quite dramatically and will be discharged from rehab soon. The issues surrounding her ongoing living arrangements, per her request, are pretty huge and require quite a bit of time/attention. We'll see where it finally settles... But that's not why I started this thread. I received a short but pithy article a couple of weeks ago that I believe I'll use in Proclamation. The point in this article is one similar to our collective "A-ha!" over, "By beholding you become changed..." This article addressed the "Ellenism" (Patriarchs and Prophets and Adventist Home) that says that in their children's earliest years, parents stand in the place of God to their children. The writer rightly points out that this is not a biblical notion, that quite to the contrary, God is God even to children. Children need their parents to be parents, but even as small children, kids need to know God as God. God never has a human stand-in. The guilt so many Adventist parents have felt over their children's spiritual state is exacerbated multiple times because of false teachings such as this. I wonder how many other subliminal teachings shaped our private guilt, expectations, and behavior without our realizing these things were never from God? Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6935 Registered: 3-2004  |
I remember that one Colleen. When I was pregnant with my son I had a horrible temper. I had had that temper since childhood. I remember praying and asking God to remove it because I wanted to be a good parent and I "knew" I stood in God's place to my son. Well, God took that temper away over night and I have never had any problems with it. I thank God that He took it, but not for my reason. He took it for His reasons and I am so very thankful. Diana L | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 487 Registered: 10-2008 |
How many do you want?!!! I don't have time to look up the references right now - but I can try later ... "Idle time is one of the devil's tools". .... This teaching shaped the fact that every time I tried to relax I felt horribly guilty .. I felt constantly stressed, because to relax was giving the devil ground ... This might even include sitting down to watch a little T.V. to unwind. The teachings of perfection from EGW went along with the above reaction as well. I could never relax - because if I let my guard down - my, oh, my, I might sin something awful. Not to mention the fact that I was a sinner to begin with! Don't eat between meals ---- every time I had a snack or it wasn't meal time and I ate something I felt guilt. I could never simply enjoy a treat - because all the while I would be feeling guilty. Today, I had a D.Q. blizzard and it was a wonderful treat - now I only worry about the "waistline".  The teaching of eating between meals made me feel guilty, because we all know that our bodies are the temple of God (but EGW took this to an extreme) (she taught that we aren't to eat mustard, or pepper or anything spicy, because that would excite the animal passions.) For some reason that created some sort of fear and crazy thinking when going out to eat or wanting something other than "bland" food - what was I to order when eating out and what affect might that have on me later (ha!) ... Is this what you are looking for? Keri | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4850 Registered: 9-2006  |
Don't you know that all the men would be pushing pepper and spices on you gals if that would have worked at all? If fact we would have made a run on the grocery stores for pepper. We'd be spikeing gals water with pepper, we'd invent a way to put it in the water system. Sorry colleen, back to your thread. River (Message edited by river on May 20, 2009) | ||
| Mommamayi Registered user Username: Mommamayi Post Number: 805 Registered: 12-2007  |
One thing I discovered when studying my way out, is that the context of the verse "Our bodies are the temple of God" has to do with sexual immorality and nothing at all to do with our eating habits. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 488 Registered: 10-2008 |
Mommamayi, Good point ... it seems that much was tied to our eating habits ... another former and I were talking the other day and we were laughing at all the crazy things we at one time believed or thought. All those subliminal teachings really were the formula for producing an anxious child and teenager not to mention a "tied-up-in-knots" adult. It seems that there was much anxiety about many things and many of those things were not scriptural or based in reality. It is amazing to come out of Seventh-day Adventism and realize that the world is such a bigger and broader and beautiful place. And that doing the "right" thing is based on something internal - like the Spirit of God living in us and a spirit that is alive to God that does not want to cause God any dishonor. And it certainly isn't tied into trying to keep all the crazy teachings in EGW. After I posted above, I thought how many things were tied up into perfection, or "getting it right". Food, diet, leisure time, reading material, etc. Keri P.S. River, after I posted I knew someone would have a post like yours . Ha! As a kid I had no idea what "animal passions" were, but I subliminally knew it must not be good ... and I'll stop there. | ||
| Akweavers Registered user Username: Akweavers Post Number: 133 Registered: 8-2008 |
So...By beholding we become changed is EGW? Well, I guess I am just now having that aha moment for this one..dadgumit..nothing is right in my head I guess. Ok, so there is the one about Adam letting Eve wander away and eat the fruit..myth busted The tower of Babel being built to out do God in case of another flood...Myth busted The quote about Son of God come forth, Thy Father calls thee..busted Jesus is Michael the Archangel...busted The Sabbath is the greatest commandment...busted Everyone of these effected the way we thought. My sister was so afraid that her name would come up in judgement and she would have forgotten some sin that she used to kneel beside her desk in school (public school no less) and pray repeatedly for forgiveness just in case.. We ate clean meat (when we got to eat) and every bite I took I recall thinking how I was chewing my way to hell because if I kept this up I would no longer walk with God's people. My sister and I loved Elvis Presley and oh my, the guilt for that...we just knew we had a reservation at Heartbreak Hotel which surely must sit on the corner of Death and Hell street. After all, not only was it secular, there were drums!! *shakes her head and walks away* | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2014 Registered: 8-2004  |
"By beholding we become changed" is actually Biblical, but it's referring to the change that will come in us when we turn away from 'Moses' and turn to Christ, as it is written: "Even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." 2 Corinthians 3: 15-18 In fact, if I'm understanding it correctly, it is describing the difference between 'living the letter of the law' and 'walking in the Spirit'. The old way was "do this and you will live," the new way is "Christ and Him crucified." The old way was that of servants. The New and Living way is that of children who watch their parents so closely they pick up their very mannerisms and attitudes. | ||
| Akweavers Registered user Username: Akweavers Post Number: 134 Registered: 8-2008 |
It is Biblical in that sense yes. However, it was never quoted in that context or wording. Also, it is NOT how it was used against us when we were kids. It was used as the reason we couldn't do anything..from playing with the neighbor kids to watching a ball game at school. Because, "You know we are told, "By beholding you become changed." That is what is confusing, all the "we are tolds" that we hear. As a kid you think it is the Bible that is doing the telling and then by adulthood there are so many "we are tolds" mixed in with actual Bible you don't know one from the other. BTW..is it in the Bible or not that Adam and Eve were warned to watch out for the fallen angel, satan? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2016 Registered: 8-2004 |
Nowhere in the Bible that I know of. The only thing on record is the warning not to eat of the tree. | ||
| Akweavers Registered user Username: Akweavers Post Number: 135 Registered: 8-2008 |
One day my head WILL explode from all this..then maybe all the egw.."stuff" (nicely put)... will come flying out and I'll be rid of it | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9873 Registered: 12-2003 |
Mary, thank you. It just seemed to me that those words were biblical somehow—but because I learned "By beholding we become changed" meant looking to Jesus to learn how to be good, and because I couldn't find the words in a search, I couldn't place it at all. You're right, though--the context is entirely about learning to live by the Spirit as we look away from the law. NO WONDER I couldn't find it in the Bible—I was searching for entirely the wrong concept, and I wasn't arranging the words correctly in the Bible search. You know, this whole thing is even more serious than I first imagined. We were taught that actual Bible "words" meant something entirely different than they really mean. No wonder we—well, I, at least—felt crazy and helpless with confusion and dissonance most of the time. We were quite literally taught that good was evil, and evil was good. To top it off, we internalized at the deepest, least conscious level, that Satan was the final sin-bearer. The effects of that sort of twisting left us unable to cope with reality. Praise God for JESUS and for the Holy Spirit ripping away the veil and for the Word of God which is alive and authoritative and reveals our deepest sins and resolves our worst confusion. We really are given new life! Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 495 Registered: 10-2008 |
Colleen, Don't know if this will be helpful, but in a round-about way I came across some EGW quotes about perfection (if I have time I'll post in the members section - how I came across them). God requires perfection of His children. His law is a transcript of His own character, and it is the standard of all character. This infinite standard is presented to all that there may be no mistake in regard to the kind of people whom God will have to compose His kingdom. The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law, and when those who claim to be children of God become Christlike in character, they will be obedient to God's commandments. Then the Lord can trust them to be of the number who shall compose the family of heaven. Clothed in the glorious apparel of Christ's righteousness, they have a place at the King's feast. They have a right to join the blood-washed throng. Christ Object Lessons; pg. 315 I included the whole paragraph - since I don't want to take things out of context. But here is where deep bondage is for the Adventist - God requires perfection of His children. When those who claim to be children of God become Christlike in character, they will be obedient to God's commandments. Sorry, we can't claim to be anything, except as the Holy Spirit witnesses to our spirit that we are children of God through the new birth. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:11-13; NASB We don't claim something as if it is our right (as EGW implies) - God adopts us as His children - He claims us! Notice EGW wording in the paragraph - God requires perfection ... if you claim to be His children you will be obedient ... Then God can trust them to be of the number who shall compose the family of heaven ... BUT then ... clothed in Christ's righteousness they have a right to join the throng. God trusts us when we are obedient ... What about God doesn't need to trust us - for goodness sakes He is God! There is nowhere in this paragraph of the work of the spirit in the life of the believer - it is based solely on the believer being perfect ... Bondage, bondage, bondage. Here is another: The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin. COL 316 You might want to read the whole paragraph but it is confusing and double-speak. This is the enemy at work causing the person to look to their own perfection rather than the sufficiency of Christ paying our debt on the cross. That is why Jesus is the lamb without blemish. Yes, she mentions Christ's robe of righteousness only after plainly stating man needs to work towards perfection on His own. Double-speak. The law and the prophets are God's appointed agencies for the salvation of men. Christ said, Let them give heed to these evidences. If they do not listen to the voice of God in His word, the testimony of a witness raised from the dead would not be heeded. This totally discounts Heb. 1:1-2; NIV. "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe." I'm done - that is enough EGW I can stand for any length of time. Keri | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 496 Registered: 10-2008 |
Oops. I think I misread the initial post ... ah, well ... Keri |
