| Author | Message | ||
| Scarred4life Registered user Username: Scarred4life Post Number: 30 Registered: 1-2009 |
Since leaving Adventism the one thing which isn't the clearest to me is what happens to us after death. I know that people on this forum don't believe in the SDA theory BUT what do most of you believe. Do you believe in Heaven or Hell after death, basically the person either goes straight to heaven or hell or something else. After my own personal study the only thing I can seem to accept is that when we die that our souls are taken by God ready to be restored with our new bodies at his second coming. What our souls are doing in the meantime I have no idea.. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1578 Registered: 5-2007  |
Scarred4life, Sounds like you've been reading ahead in the SDA Quarterly. If you read the commentary for Week Nine you will learn what the Bible has to say about this topic: http://www.biblestudiesforadventists.com/2009/quarter2/week9/index.html Fearless Phil | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 87 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hello Scarred! We were just having a similar discussion on CARM. (Thread Link.) Much of the following is what I posted there: The church I was led to does not focus on these issues or require any specific stance. Jesus Christ: The Sole Source Of Our Salvation and the Unity Of Believers are our Essentials. Everything else is disputable (and disputed!). In the end though, every week we come together to the Table of the Lord as A United Body of His Children. This was one of the main things that influenced my decision to end my great-church-hunting-expedition with this congregation. I remained undecided about the state of the dead for over 3 years. Recently I have gradually concluded that the promises that Jesus made regarding receiving eternal life here and now can only be true if immortality of the soul is granted to believers. I believe this is very much tied up in our nature pre- and post-fall. I believe that Adam was created with an immortal spirit that was oriented God-ward. This is what died in the day that he disobeyed God. All of his children since have been born spiritless God-haters, utterly incapable of coming into intimacy with God of their own accord. In the moment when one is born of the Spirit, Holy Spirit God instills a God-ward spirit in the believer. This spirit is immortal. Jesus said, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." John 4:14. and "whoever lives and believes in me will never die." John 11:26. I have come to the point where I find these and other statements of Jesus, as well as Paul's comments, impossible to reconcile with soul sleep. I am not prepared to be dogmatic about this issue,as I don't consider it salvific. It does concern me, however, because I believe that coming to grips with this concept makes it much easier to comprehend how the depravity of man occurred and the issues that are involved. Our situation is much more hopeless than just that we are born into a "sinful world" or with some "tendency to sin"! Eternal torment is a whole different matter. I find it much more difficult to support Biblically. (There was a time when I thought that state of the dead and eternal torment were inseparable. I no longer see it that way.) I am not entirely settled, but at this time I am strongly inclined to Annihilation. This freedom to listen individually to the Holy Spirit and draw from His conslusions is a freedom that I had no idea existed! I did not expect to find it when I went church-hunting. It wasn't even on my radar screen. I can tell you, though, when I stumbled onto a group of free-minded Christians I knew immediately it was for me. I have tried to explain it to my SDA family. They think I am crazy. BTW - In my church-hunting experience I found this kind of openness very unusual amongst the congregations I visited. At least in my part of the Bible Belt, agreeing to hold to the Essentials while offering charity in disputable matters is NOT common practice. This was a great source of discouragement in my search. I praise God that He caused me to be so turned-off by this arrogant behavior. Had I not found it so distasteful I likely would have settled for a church that met my other (infinitely less important than His!) spefications. Pegg  | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1579 Registered: 5-2007 |
Pegg, The wonderful news that has been repeated over and over on this forum is that we don't have to have answers for every theological question. As we grew in our understanding of God's Word, we can even change our mind on the details, especially things that don't effect our salvation without hampering our spiritual growth. On the topic of "annihilation of the wicked", the common response I get from non-SDAs is; "Why is this such a big deal"? After all, God is going to do what he is planning on doing and will not be effected by our present understanding. It is ok to have differing ideas on this topic. SDAs on the other hand, have this tied to Soul Sleep and Investigative Judgment and, for them, it is a big deal. For me, when I realized that Jesus was my Scapegoat it led to me dumping Investigative Judgment. Then, I gradually learned that there was no need for the doctrine of Soul Sleep. It is a great joy knowing we will never be separated from the love of God. With our limited ability to 'picture' anything outside of our physical world, the "Lake of Fire" which is reserved for Satan and all that is wicked is something beyond our full understanding, so why worry about having a theologically sound position on the topic of "annihilation". What God has planned for the wicked will be done. It doesn't require our help or understanding. What is does tell us is that life as we know it will not continue forever. The destiny of the wicked is terrible to contemplate This should be a motivating factor in spreading the real gospel message of Jesus Christ. Fearless Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4802 Registered: 9-2006  |
I have a big problem with the Annihilation theory because it goes against Jesus stern warnings, at least that is my take on it. It invites "Well, if I don't listen to Jesus he will just Annihilate and after all I didn't ask to be born anyway, Blah ba Blah ba blah" And god said this was his beloved Son and to listen to him. Annihilation doesn't make any sense anyhow accept to someone who hasn't thought it through with logic, God sent his word and your spirit was formed and Gods never changes his word so logically your spirit cannot die or be obliterated so it's got to live out eternity somewhere. I challenge anyone to prove out of the Bible where there is indication of Annihilation, I think it is not only a false doctrine, but a dangerous one. I don't think the spirit of man can die, because we were made in Gods likeness. I got big problems with it.An awful lot of the formers believe in this theory and that is disappointing and dangerous to souls, it may not be salvic, true enough, but it sure is alarming. I don't say all this too be unkind either, its just something that I feel deeply about so I'm saying my piece on it. I think sinners may well heed warning, the warnings are in the Bible. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9836 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, Scarred4life, the issue of death is one of the last to resolve, and the issue of hell is usually the last big doctrine for a former adventist to resolve. But, as Pegg has said, the issue of the spirit is critical. Only when we understand that we are born with literally dead spirits, our legacy from Adam, and are made alive with Christ when we believe in Jesus (Ephesians 2:1-6), does our natural depravity make sense. Moreover, this issue affects the nature of salvation (is salvation behavior-based or spiritual life-based?), and the nature of Jesus (was he a human that was just body-plus-breath as we were taught we were, with no advantage we don't have, or was He literally God in flesh, spiritually alive from conception, the only human ever born who didn't need to be born again?) 2 Corinthian 5:1-10 and Philippians 1:22-23 make total sense to me now. The part of us that knows God—our spirits, which which we are to worship God who is spirit (John 4:24)—are never separated from Him. We are hidden with Christ in God (Col 3:3), and to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor 5). The underlying reality of Jesus' words about hell began to make sense when I realized that the consequences for rejecting the Sin Bearer have to be as significant as the consequences for accepting Him—only in an opposite way. Moreover, Revelation 20 describes the resurrection of the wicked for eternal punishment. Nowhere does the Bible suggest that the wicked receive different sorts of bodies at their resurrection than do the saints. The "first death" in the Bible is the separation of the body from the spirit. The second death, described at the end of Revelation 20, is said to be the lake of fire into which the wicked go with their resurrection bodies. The passage also says that death is thrown into the lake of fire. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 152 Registered: 3-2009 |
Colleen says: "Nowhere does the Bible suggest that the wicked receive different sorts of bodies at their resurrection than do the saints. I understand that the saved will received "glorified" bodies. Will the wicked received glorified bodies too? And why would they need glorified bodies? Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2741 Registered: 10-2004  |
River, I agree completely. It's been alarming to me, too, especially going on CARM and seeing so many still holding to annihilationism. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9845 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hec, not glorified the way Jesus is glorified—and to be honest the Bible doesn't tell us much about it. But Jesus had a body, after His resurrection, that was not limited to three dimensions and time. He appeared without using doors; he was able to ascend to heaven in His body. There are never two different definitions of "resurrection" in the Bible. When Jesus raised people from the dead, it said he raised them from the dead—not that He resurrected them. Jesus was the firstborn from among the dead (Col 1:18). No one could be resurrected from death eternally prior to Jesus, and we know His resurrection was eternal, not merely a resuscitation (Romans 6:9). We also know that death (the separation of the body from the spirit, illustrated by Jesus on the cross when he gave up His spirit and died) and Hades are thrown, at the end of the millennium into the lake of fire which is the second death (Revelation 20:14). And if anyone's name was not found in the book of life, he was also thrown into the lake of fire—along with death—after having been resurrected for judgment (v. 12-13). We really aren't told many details—but with Jesus teaching more about eternal punishment than any other person in the Bible, coupled with what Revelation says about death, the second death, and the fact that wicked dead are resurrected for judgment (notice they are sent into the lake of fire with bodies, not just as spirits), it certainly looks to me as if hell is eternal. God is just, and He is merciful. He does not punish capriciously or without offering grace. He offers Himself, through the death and resurrection of the Son, as grace toward us. To reject so great a sacrifice leaves us without any sacrifice for sin at all—and it leaves us eternally, spiritually dead. And River, I'm also concerned about the resistance to the biblical teaching of eternal hell. I know it takes time—sometimes years—for a former Adventist to develop a biblical, consistent worldview, so I understand struggling with the idea. Ultimately, God Himself teaches us through His word and the Holy Spirit, and we become increasingly anchored in biblical truth and reality. Colleen | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 159 Registered: 3-2009 |
This discussion has touched a sensitive chord inside me. There are people here on this forum at different places in their journey, and as Colleen has said, the eternal hell concept is often the very last doctrine that formers accept (and perhaps some will never do so). River, you admitted that this is not a "salvation" issue. If that is the case, why is it "dangerous" and "alarming" if people hold to annhilation? Many of us SDAs have heard these same types of words (i.e., dangerous) used by EGW to describe the grave consequences for those who reject her doctrines (which we all agree are also not related to salvation). Please be aware there may be individuals on here who are truly new in the faith, and if pushed to accept the eternal hell concept right away (b/c it would be "dangerous" not to do so), they may move away from Christianity all together. This is how I feel right now. I find the concept of God allowing people to be tortured forever too much to take--particularly when I'm trying to sort thru all the other things that go along with transitioning out. On a side note, this topic holds particular significance with the things I've been hearing in the news about the U.S. torturing people at Guantanamo or Christians being tortured for their faith around the world. Sadly, I also read in the news that it's church-going Christians who are most ammenable to the idea of torturing terrorists for information if it helps keep America safe: http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=156 I become sickened when I hear about these reports. I can't help but think that some "Christians" may actually use the following rationale: "Well, if God can torture people for what He deems is a good reason, the U.S. can also do so". Just wanted to bring this up in case there are those who are reading this who are early in the journey and feel overwhelmed by this difficult doctrine. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 437 Registered: 7-2008  |
The important issue is.....JESUS !!! Do you know Him? Does He know YOU ? Is He YOUR Savior? Do YOU trust Him with YOUR salvation? Are YOU sharing Christ love with others? Animal doesnt fully understand the state of the dead or the doctrine of the Trinity. Should that concern me??..Not at all. Salvation is about a Love relationship with Your creator..NOT understanding the mysteries of the spiritual realm. As long as God knows the end from the beginning..I am fully content with my " limited" understanding of life. I am in His hands...isnt that what REALLY matters??? ....Animal...rest in HIS arms | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 161 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks, Animal. I can relate to what you said. I want to slowly increase my understanding of doctrines, of course. But right now, Jesus is my Savior and that is enough. I can't believe I never knew how to rest in Him until just a few weeks ago. Amazing! Here's where I am with the eternal hell doctrine: I don't understand it right now. I just do not know at this time. But, I trust our incredible, beautiful, all-powerful God, and however He handles the unsaved--I will have peace with it. Bottom line, I trust Him, whatever He does.. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4809 Registered: 9-2006 |
Seekinglight, The reason I think it is so dangerous has nothing to do with your journey or your ability to process out of Adventism. Now you said : Many of us SDAs have heard these same types of words (i.e., dangerous) used by EGW to describe the grave consequences for those who reject her doctrines (which we all agree are also not related to salvation). Comparing me in any way, shape, form, hints, alluding, to Ellen White is not advisable. I don't know you so I am just assuming that this is not what you intended. River | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 162 Registered: 3-2009 |
Sorry, River, please allow me to clarify. Words like "dangerous" etc. when used for non-salvation issues trigger things in my wounded heart b/c of the EGW stuff. So, you & Jeremy's statements reminded me of her, and I should have emphasizing that this perception is in me -- not that you guys are like EGW. I do not believe anyone here on the forum is like her at all! I'm looking at life thru a filter that distorts things, and I think that other relatively new people may have a similar type of filter in place. Just making you aware. Thanks for listening and for caring. | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 438 Registered: 7-2008 |
Everyone Needs Someone People need people and friends need friends And we all need love for a full life depends Not on vast riches or great acclaim, Not on success or on worldy fame, But just in knowing that someone cares And holds us close in their thoughts and prayers- For only the knowledge that we're understood Makes everyday living feel wonderfully good, And we rob ourselves of life's greatest need When we "lock up our hearts" and fail to heed The outstretched hand reaching to find A kindred spirit whose heart and mind Are lonely and longing to somehow share Our joys and sorrows and to make us aware That life's completeness and richness depends On the things we share with our loved ones and friends. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 155 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks, Animal, Just what I needed today. Hec | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 450 Registered: 10-2008 |
If I might interject ... Not long ago there was a thread that listed the words that cause reactions in former Adventists ... I copied those words into a word document - simply because I thought it was SO intriguing. Do you realize there was over 80 DIFFERENT words in that thread that caused formers to have a knee-jerk reaction. It blew me away. I realized how MUCH damage has been done by this denomination. So River, I do not believe Seekinglight was implying that you were in any way like EGW. It is not that the words in themselves are wrong - it is the attachment that Adventism has given to those words - such as the Plan of Salvation. Yikes! We all know that makes some of us strongly react. If I were to say that phrase to someone who has never been an Adventist - they wouldn't react in that way and their understanding behind the words would be totally different. Seekinglight, (sorry, to talk about you in the third person) mentioned that Clifford Goldstein's book Graffiti in the Holies mentions that if you don't accept the IJ it is dangerous and a person can lose their salvation from not accepting that doctrine. I believe Seekinglight was reacting to your comment that it was dangerous not to accept the doctrine of hell (even though you weren't implying she would lose her salvation if she didn't). Am I on target? Neither one of you, River or Seekinglight, were "wrong" ... just being family - I'd say ... Us formers are a messy lot. I remember reacting very strongly to a pastoral sermon where the pastor said, "Stop sinning, just stop it!". I talked to 5 different people that day sharing my knee-jerk reaction. I'm getting better though ... For example I'm attending an evangelistic seminar at the church and they are using the 10C often in it - I feel frustrated at times, but I also know that it is desensitizing me. The others in the group don't have the reaction I have ... Anyways, ... Keri | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 451 Registered: 10-2008 |
Scarred4life, I'm SO glad you started this thread. That was not my initial reaction when I read your initial post, but I almost see an element of God-timing in it for me. I won't go into detail ... but this was a topic that came up in a difficult conversation I recently had. This post may be in parts, because a horrific storm is raging and my little dog demands attention when the thunder and lightening come. The doctrine of hell being eternal and having an element of physical suffering - was extremely difficult for me to grasp. It was the last major doctrine to fall for me. But accepting the doctrine of hell as being eternal conscious punishment has been the biggest blessing for me. I had been studying for almost 3-4 months when my pastor preached a sermon in which "hell" was addressed. He was preaching from Matthew (Matt. 13:36-43; the parable of the weeds). Verse 42 is particularly frightful - "They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." The pastor handled the verse and sermon very well. It was not a fire and brimstone type of thing ... It was simply this is what I understand scripture to teach on the subject - Hell is real and there is an element of physical pain/discomfort to it. Why do I now see this doctrine as a blessing? It was after this sermon I was convicted that the doctrine could stand up under scrutiny. [Some of you may not see it and that is ok] I made an appointment with the pastor and a woman who had been used by the Holy Spirit to start my process of questioning. At that appointment I finally voiced out loud that I no longer believed in the Sabbath, annihilation, soul sleep, etc. I was overwhelmed by the implications for this change in understanding and I had no idea what to do. It was the beginning of the end of Adventism for me - that was one blessing. The other blessing of accepting the doctrine of hell as eternal conscious punishment was I finally allowed God out of the neatly established parameters of my understanding of Him. I finally allowed Him Sovereignty ... Before I couldn't picture a loving God allowing eternal conscious punishment. It just didn't fit my picture of what a loving God looked like. When I finally accepted the doctrine and looked at the scriptures and the realization that this was the piece that held all the others together ... God finally was allowed to be fully God to me, fully Sovereign; fully out of my neatly packaged box I had put Him in. Accepting this doctrine prompts me not to lose opportunities to share Jesus - it prompts me to realize God is Sovereign and beyond my comprehension. And finally this doctrine makes logical sense. If the reward for the righteous is eternal and amazing the opposite must be true for the unrighteous - eternal and devastating. I'm going to post and then I may share some interesting texts next. Keri | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 452 Registered: 10-2008 |
I'm only going to share a little more ... There is a book I got awhile ago by D.A. Carson called, "The Gagging of God". It is a HUGE book and covers many arguments and the pluralizing of beliefs ... In the book is a chapter entitled, "On Banishing the Lake of Fire". It is a good chapter, because it gives arguments for conditional immortality (annihilation) and arguments for conscious eternal punishment. The chapter starts on page 515 . So you can see it is a big book. As I was thinking of this thread I came across an interesting chapter in the Bible that I would not have thought of as talking about hell. Psalms 55. Scarred4life I would suggest reading the whole chapter and asking God to reveal what He would have you to know from the reading of His word. 2 Thess. 1:5-12 is another good one. The last amazing thing I found, while thinking about this thread was Rev. 14 and the third angels message. Yes, the third angels message. Don't go puking on me, now . Adventists don't preach the whole thing remember . Read Rev. 14:9-13. he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength (in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (NASB) Forgive me if I triggered a knee-jerk reaction by using Rev. 14. There just seems to be evidence in scripture that does point to something very, very, very, unpleasant for the wicked and it isn't annihilation. Keri | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4810 Registered: 9-2006 |
Seekinglight, I realize these sore spots exist, I am in sympathy with it to the nth degree. Who knows, maybe I'll grow on you! I think I have grown plumb out of joint with a few, that's ok too. The biggest shock that I ever had to go through was that everybody wasn't going to like me, I wanted everybody to like me and I tried all my life until the Holy Spirit said "Your trying to please men and not God," well...that sure threw a wrench in my spoke. But I truly do need you. I have spent a lifetime being a loner all cooped up in the house that I had built with sticks, packed mud on the roof, that worked until just two or three years ago God began removing the sticks, I may have a few sticks left, but it gettin' awful airy in here. Its funny, you mention sore spots, it don't take anything but a certain word, or what I perceive someone has said, for me to try to run back into that none exist hole and pull sticks over my head. See, I am on my way out too, bet you didn't know that. River P.S. To Keri,thats good teaching, not trying to talk over you. I'm reading and enjoying your writing. |
