| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2747 Registered: 10-2004  |
Seekinglight wrote:
Well, actually, even according to most annihilationists, including EGW, God is going to "torture" the wicked for certain amounts of time--longer than the mere moments the US has "tortured" anybody. So, actually that argument would only work if you were to deny any punishment in the Lake of Fire whatsoever. Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4818 Registered: 9-2006  |
Jeremy was annihilation-ism condemned as heresy at the Second Council of Constantinople in 553 A.D.? River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4819 Registered: 9-2006 |
All cults generally tend to distort biblical teachings on eternal punishment: Christian Science Jehovah’s Witnesses Mormonism, Unity, and such like, modern theology insists that a loving God could never subject anyone to such punishment. It is foundational to the Christian doctrine however, Hebrews 6:2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Just what part of eternal is folks having problems with? I stand amazed. Of course I have been having some problems with eternal lately myself when my barber has to remind me I am not in a movie theater. I’m getting to where caution is the only thing I am willing to exercise. River | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 782 Registered: 7-2007 |
And then on the "other side," there are examples of "eternal" that had an end. Exodus 21:6 and Deuteronomy 15:17 are talking about a servant who, if he/she decided to remain with his master and not go out free on the seventh year, was to serve his master forever. I'm sure there isn't slavery in Heaven, so I suspect this "forever" was to be only until the servant's death. Another example is that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the "vengeance of eternal fire." Anyway, these are examples to take into consideration, but as for myself; I don't know yet what to believe about hell. It's not a salvation issue anyway. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 162 Registered: 3-2009 |
For now, I have solved it in my mind that it means eternal punishment not eternal punishing The result of eternal life is "life forever". The result of eternal death, is "death forever" not life forever under punishment. It has been said before that at resurrection, both the saved and the lost will receive the same body. This will mean that both will have eternal life, just that one set will go to one place and the other set will go to another place. If eternal life is only in Jesus, then the lost cannot have eternal life even if it is in a state of punishment. Hec | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 460 Registered: 10-2008 |
Asurprise, The issue with the texts you post above is that they are NOT referring to what happens to the wicked at the end of time. You are using the word "eternal" to transfer to a different topic. And the scriptures you use are NOT in the CONTEXT of what happens to the wicked at the end of time. Sorry, oh, man, I am sorry - cause my next sentence is going to probably cause you or someone else to react. Glad you'all can't throw tomatoes over the internet  . Adventists are exceptionally good at taking scripture out of context. Now, look at me ... I took it out of context above myself when I said to look at Psalms 55. I was wrong and using the same type of "exegesis". I'm just now learning what it means to really digest scripture and to look within context, etc. I'm afraid I also have to say I had my own knee-jerk reaction to the Sodom and Gomorrah reference --- that is what we used in Daniel and Revelation seminars - that same argument about Sodom and Gomorrah to show/prove annihilation. Sodom and Gomorrah is destroyed and we don't see the smoke today. But could that have also meant the people of Sodom and Gomorrah rather than the actual physical city? Just a thought. The texts that are in context of talking about what happens to the wicked in judgment do indicate "eternal"as a forever thing. Take for example the following: Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:9-11; NASB) Here is Jesus own teaching about the end of time and what will happen to the wicked. The disciples asked Jesus to explain the parable. So this is in context of explanation of the parable and the "end of the age". Listen ... and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 13:38-42) The weeping and gnashing of teeth doesn't sound too pleasant. Here is another teaching in context on what happens to the wicked in judgment: This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed. 2 Thes. 1:5-10 The penalty for the wicked is "eternal" and it is "punishment". At least that is how I read the text. Also, if I might digress. We were taught as Adventists to look at Luke 16 and the interaction between Lazarus and the rich man as a parable. In the context of the passage it is not necessarily a parable. Jesus has been teaching about things that actually happened. He doesn't give the meaning to the disciples later (like he does when teaching parables), because the meaning is implied in what He is saying. It is as if Jesus teaches a little on what happens when you die using an actual story of a rich man and Lazarus. At least that is my take on that particular subject. Keri P.S. You are right this is not a "salvific" issue, but it sure is intriguing that many formers haven't made a decision concerning it or do not embrace eternal hell and still hold onto annihilation. It is just interesting to me. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 163 Registered: 3-2009 |
"These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction." Is it "eternal destruction" or "eternal destructing" Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2748 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hec, The Greek word for "eternal," according to Strong's definition, literally means "perpetual." Therefore, the texts are saying "perpetual, continual punishment" and "perpetual, continual destruction." It does not mean "the effects last forever." Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 16, 2009) | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 90 Registered: 2-2006 |
My! My! You guys will have to forgive me if I get confused. I'm used to posting in hybrid on CARM. How do you manage to reply to this linear thingie...open 2 windows at a time, one for reading and one for writing????? Then I need another for discovering secrets of formatting.<sigh> Okay --> Now that I got that off my chest...! Dennis - IMO You have posted the strongest ET arguments that I know of (not that I know them all, by any means!). The idea that sins cannot be atoned for in forever and ever is strongly logical, but I haven't seen anyone offer Biblical support for the way you are using this concept. Do you know of any? River - I didn't mean to insult you about the SDA thingie and I was in no way referring to the subject of the discussion at hand. My reference was to the SDA practice of acting as if every doctrine is Essential. I think this is clearly not the case and that disputable doctrines should not divide believers. Since I don't post here very much, I don't know you well and I'm not sure how to take your comments. On the surface, I find them insulting. I'm guessing, however, that you didn't mean them that way. I might say, I once was in a hurry to throw aside all things SDA only because they were SDA. I quickly found out that it's not that easy. Since then He has led me to proceed methodically, resolving one issue before leisurely moving on to another. When He chooses to make this issue clear (IF He does!) I will know it immediately and move on. Until then, I will listen to and evaluate the discussion and continue to ask questions while I await His conclusion. River - you have said that As set aside immortality of the soul. First, where are we told about this immortality of the soul so that it can be set aside? And second, it seems to me that As can easily preserve immortality conferred through Christ to believers, but that those holding to ET must set aside Paul's words that God alone is immortal: "which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:15-16We are told in many places that immortality is conferred to the believer. For example: "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. John 5:24It seems to me that the ET scenarios have the wicked crossing over from death to life as well. Do you have Scripture to support this assumption? River - IMO opinion, "eternal judgment" is different from eternal torment. Eternal torment, if it exists, would be the result of eternal judgment. Let me reiterate that I in no way mean to be dogmatic about this subject. As I have said, I am in no position to even assume a position. Rather, it is my intention to objectively examine the arguments that have been leveled. I want to thank all of you for the time you have invested. I have found your comments useful and I hope we can amicably continue with the discussion. Pegg | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2749 Registered: 10-2004 |
Pegg, River is a never-been-SDA. Jeremy | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 443 Registered: 7-2008  |
I wish I had never been an SDA....sigh | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 91 Registered: 2-2006 |
Jeremy - Is there a different Greek word that means "the effects last forever"? Pegg | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 785 Registered: 7-2007 |
Pegg, River DOES come across as rather harsh sometimes. I myself don't always know how to take him, but I think that he was probably just kidding. He does that a lot! Keri, I know that those verses don't refer to what happens to the wicked. They do, though, talk about something that is "eternal" for someone. That's why I mentioned them. If "eternal" means one thing in one place, why not mean the same in another? However, whatever the answer is, I'm not concerned because I trust God's heart. He will do what's right - He's both just and merciful. Another thing. Jesus DID say that there would be degrees of punishment, depending on the person's guilt. Luke 12:47,48 | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4820 Registered: 9-2006 |
Pegg, Sorry about yanking on your chain, I'll be good. You didn't insult me, the thought never entered my mind. Love ya. Now what were we talking about? Isolation, insulation or was it germination? Oh, it was idealization! Er...no that wasn't it either. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4821 Registered: 9-2006 |
Harsh Dianne? Oh come on now. I am gentle as a lamb, Shaun the sheep is me motto. Why, I haven't cut off an ear in a week! | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 444 Registered: 7-2008 |
Still got my 2 ears...lol lol lol lol | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 164 Registered: 3-2009 |
I think the reason this is such a difficult issue is because many formers are prone to agnosticism because they aren't grounded in faith at first. This is one issue like no other that may push them in that direction if they're just learning to trust the heart of Jesus. IMHO, I would like to see it put to rest or at least discussed in the members section. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4823 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well I can sing you a song seekingglo. Tater's never did taste good with chicken on the plate .. Yodelahee! But I had to eatem just tha same.. yodeladeooo! What? Keep my day job? Cruel, cruel. I am doggy sitting, he's sitting here either enjoying my music or telling me he has to go pee pee. | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 93 Registered: 2-2006 |
River - These were my questions above: River - you have said that As set aside immortality of the soul. First, where are we told about this immortality of the soul so that it can be set aside? And second, it seems to me that As can easily preserve immortality conferred through Christ to believers, but that those holding to ET must set aside Paul's words that God alone is immortal: | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 462 Registered: 10-2008 |
Asurprise, Thanks so much for responding - I certainly don't want to offend. I'm going to post a quick response to your question about why say "eternal" in one spot and mean something and then say "eternal" in another scripture text and mean something different? Have you read Dale's book, "Sabbath in Christ" or Greg Taylors? I think it is somewhere in those books or Cultic Doctrine where it says that words like "law" can refer to different things - like the whole Mosaic law; ceremonial, 10C, and civil, etc. Sometimes law referred directly to the 10C (and the context will show that), etc. Also, Spirit has different connotations depending on context. So yes, a word can have different meanings depending on the context. Kinda like our horrible English Language. No offense to any English teachers, tee, hee. I just found out today that commandments - as translated in NT scriptures came from the Greek word for teachings (Dale's book; Sabbath in Christ) ... So meaning and word can be different. The two texts you used were OT texts and I'd have to look at the Hebrew to ascertain the meaning (never took Hebrew ). Maybe Doc will jump in here. The texts I used above are NT and would be in Greek. And they do directly refer to the punishment of the wicked. And Jeremy already posted the meaning according to Strong's - perpetual. Thanks for keeping the lines of communication open . I'm open to learning too ... Keri |
