| Author |
Message |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 128
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, May 07, 2009 - 6:22 pm: |     |
Wow. I'm humbled by all the love & encouragement that has come my way today. I appreciate all your perspectives.
Grace, Colleen, Keri, Jeremy, and Doc, thank you for sharing your thoughts about Clarence's ideas.
Hec, you are right. I've been hurt by the system, so I can be hyper-sensitive. I have been quite reactive lately--various things will push my "buttons" easily. I realize this is more about me than anyone else, and I thank you guys for bearing with me in such a gentle manner. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2729
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 07, 2009 - 8:12 pm: | |
River wrote:
quote:Easy River, just don't say it. 
Did we all say it for you, River? 
Jeremy |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 4738
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 07, 2009 - 9:40 pm: | |
Now your catching on Jeremy. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9787
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 07, 2009 - 10:26 pm: | |
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 4739
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 07, 2009 - 11:20 pm: | |
Seekinglight,
We love you and it is as simple as that.
River |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1668
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, May 08, 2009 - 6:52 am: | |
Lest we may think that Seventh-day Adventism is the only cult with ever new and changing conspiracy theories, I just learned that Jehovah's Witnesses have a new conspiracy theory that "blood products" are in Hershey and Dairy Queen products. Thus, JW's have a so-called "health message" too--even railing against Dairy Queen ice cream and chocolate bars. It seems like their key principle, like with Adventism, is that if food tastes good, it must be somehow inherently evil.
Dennis Fischer |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1913
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 08, 2009 - 7:38 am: | |
Dennis, that reminds me of a book I glanced at once which was aimed at helping Adventists into freedom. I only saw the title to one of it's chapters:
"Are You Suspicious of Joy?"
My friends and I laughed. And said "Amen!" |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1914
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 08, 2009 - 7:42 am: | |
Grace & Colleen & others,
The "by beholding we become changed" thing is unnaturally "heavy" when it comes in Adventism precisely because of the driving necessity of being "changed". In other words, being "changed" is imperative for our ultimate salvation. The force or spirit behind things says that, yes, we had better become changed or else we're lost.
The goal of "beholding" is then "becoming changed". The purpose of the beholding Christ is becoming perfect. And the purpose of becoming perfect is simply "not being lost". The root of things is fear (again!). The "beholding" then becomes a sort of work to attain the goal of having a saving character perfection (salvation by Christlikeness).
While in Adventism, we somehow did know that all the "law" stuff was heavy, and so the phrase "beholding" was meant to make things sound simpler, lighter, easier. But it didn't really, because the ultimate goal (having a character perfection) was still the same. "Beholding" was a means to that end. Even the grammar of the SDA phrasing betrays this, "By beholding we become changed." The action is ours. We look, we instigate, and thus we "become" different.
As Paul writes it, though, the end is "beholding", and the "transformation" is the by-product! (Wow, I am suddenly crying in Him as I write that!) The "and" at the beginning of Paul's "beholding" statement shows that this is simply an "and" -- a by-product. The ministry of the Lord Himself! The glory and transformation comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. And the "righteousness" and "glory" that the Spirit brings in His ministry is not ours, either. Earlier Paul had spoken of the ministry that brings condemnation (the Old Covenant on the tablets of stone), and then in contrast spoke of the "ministry of righteousness" -- the ministry of the Spirit which gives life. Not works that bring life, but rather the good news that Christ has given us His life, His righteousness.
Our own transformation, our own "Christlikeness" is an "and"! A blessed "and"! It is not the goal of beholding. It is a wonderful by-product, make no mistake about that, but the goal of beholding is losing yourself in His face. Yes, we may go to Him to be changed and ask Him to make us better people, make us like Him. But we can trust Him to do that. Yet He has called us to be His bride. What bride do any of us know who sees the "beholding" of her husband as the means by which she will be transformed enough to be accepted by him?
In wonderful, liberating contrast, the picture we have in Scripture is of a Husband who loved His wayward bride so much that He gave Himself up for her to make her holy. He "washes" and "cleans" her with His loving words. He wants her to be radiant. He did all this because He wants to present her to Himself. He loves her. He loves her as He loves His own body. Yes, she's going to be spotless. Yes, she's going to be holy. But that is His work, not hers. He is the cleaner. He is the washer. (And in blessed contrast to the SDA grammar, Paul's grammar says we are "being changed" in a passive tense!) And moreover, He Himself is her righteousness. He is her holiness. She is without stain, wrinkle or any other blemish because she is wearing His robe!
Anyway, I'm rambling. I wrote this because I wanted to mention that the "beholding" is not simply "beholding"... it's "beholding as in a mirror." That mirror part seems to just be extra emphasis to us today, as if it means "seeing clearly". And that is partially true, because it does mean seeing more clearly than before. But it does not mean seeing with complete clarity. In fact, it means the opposite of seeing with complete clarity. Today's mirrors give a perfect reflection, but ancient mirrors from 2,000 years ago didn't! In 1st Corinthians 13, Paul even used the "mirror" imagery to describe how dimly we see Christ now--how much less adequate that is than face to face!
God doesn't expect us to see everything. He only asks of us that we behold Him dimly. He will do everything else. In fact, He already has done everything else! We get to enjoy beholding Him while wearing His clean robe.
Bless you in Jesus' love!
Ramone |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 119
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, May 08, 2009 - 8:44 am: | |
WOW! WOW! WOW!
And I though that when SDAs used that verse about beholding they were being evangelicals (righteousness by faith) I was not that we needed to "work", but just behold Jesus. Still...
Ramone, I do appreciate your insight. It makes Jesus a whole lot more precious. Not that He can be made more precious, but that I can see how precious he is. I think SDAs are missing that part. The best part (Mary and Martha). Maybe the main point is the "cause and effect" as you mention it.
WOW, WOW, WOW,
Hec |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 6875
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 08, 2009 - 9:24 am: | |
I looked toward Jesus, that I knew as an adventist, and I did not change. When I read the NT 5 years ago I learned that only when the Holy Spirit lived in me, then I could, did and still am changing. He does not change everything all at once. He does one or two things at a time. At least that has been my experience.
God is so awesome.
Diana L |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 131
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, May 08, 2009 - 10:04 am: | |
Thank you, Ramone. We can count on you to take the sterility out of doctrines and bring them to the heart and experiential level.
Now, back to the original question. When a born- again person feels secure in their salvation, but they're not being changed, how should their pastor direct them?
All your suggestions are good: "become a disciple", "surrender", etc. but even these are a bit vague. And people usually don't respond well to vague prescriptions. Instead, they often want steps to follow--perhaps b/c folks are prone to default to the Old Covenant.
Anyway, I think we've pretty much ruled out the idea that a pastor should admonish "lazy" Christians to simply stop sinning. Instead, should the pastor lead them to the feet of Jesus--to experience Him in new ways? This is clearly the more difficult of the two options b/c I'm not even sure what this would entail in concrete terms. However, even in this case, if pastor's end goal is still to change behavior, then the situation again seems SDA-like.
So, if we take what Ramone is saying, a pastor should encourage "lazy" Christians to mingle with Jesus as an end in itself.
Ok, that's a nice thought, and I like it! But even Paul was reduced to telling Corinthians to just stop doing certain behaviors. Perhaps this was b/c they honestly didn't know that those behaviors were wrong? Currently, even the "lazy" Christians seem to know which behaviors are Christian-congruent, yet they still engage in destructive ones out of neglect, addiction, rebellion, or whatever.
So, allow me to repeat the question that I originally posed above before we became distracted:
How do we, who may be in spiritual leadership, encourage "lazy" Christians to change behavior?
Or is this the wrong question?
Possible solutions:
Do we show them how to behold Jesus as an end in itself, without addressing the behavior itself b/c in so doing, we may sound legalistic?
Do we tell them to submit to the H.S.? Are there steps to doing this? This is what I like about Clarence Schilt--he gives very specific steps on how to surrender. These include scripture memorization and setting aside time to commune with Jesus, using active imagination--making Him real. I guess one could do this through art, music, nature, etc. All in all, it's simply engaging in behaviors that provide a context for Jesus to change your heart in that mysterious way that we cannot really explain.
He also discusses the idea of asking God at the beginning of the day to show you where you are not submitting to Him on a moment-by-moment basis. When He shows you that you are not submitting, you are supposed to stop and confess and go back to scripture.
The thing that's difficult about Clarence's "program" (aside from the doctrinal problems discussed above) is that his program is a lot of work! And that's perhaps why many SDAs love him so much, lol! They are never happier than when they're working toward a goal.
Looking forward to your feedback on this absolutely fascinating thread... |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9789
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 08, 2009 - 1:22 pm: | |
Seekinglight, I've noticed a significant change in my response to and understanding of the whole issue of "obedience" and "sin" since I've gradually become "reprogrammed" from an Adventist paradigm into an evangelical one.
When we first attended Trinity church, both Richard and I had visceral reactions if we heard the concept of "obedience" discussed in a sermon. Ditto for "law". We REALLY rose up at at that word!
A couple of things have happened. The external thing is that, as the years have passed, our pastor has become more aware of those with Adventism in their history in his church, and now when he mentions "law" or refers to an OT text about loving "the law", he always adds an explanatory phrase that "law" simply means, in the OT context, "word of God". Pastors who do not preach to a lot of former Adventists generally don't have our particular "knee-jerk" reaction on their radar screen.
The second thing that's happened—and to me, this is the more significant thing because it tells me my paradigm is adjusting—is that I'm starting to see these concepts from a NT perspective, from the perspective of being born again instead of from that of needing to insure my salvation.
I'm going to risk making a categorical statement here: Adventists, regardless of their "flavor", all have a worldview shaped by EGW's influence and by SDA unique doctrines. Even those who don't think they believe in her live with a world view established by her. Adventists, even the most evangelical, believe there are things (primarily keeping the Sabbath) that God expects of them to show they love Him.
Adventists simply do not have the understanding, no matter what they say, that they are born of the Spirit and that salvation is secure. Because Adventists do not believe they have spirits, they have absolutely no concept of the new birth, and they further don't understand the repentance that is the pivot point between death and life. They totally believe that some work is necessary—either to be loyal to God, or to please Him, or to deserve their sanctification, or to stay saved.
When we begin to see that Jesus did it all, our sense of joy and freedom is almost unparalleled. When we know we are born again, we KNOW we have passed from death to life, and we vigorously react against any hint that works are part of salvation. And our reaction is just and justified!
But what I've discovered—and this took time—it didn't and it couldn't have come all at once—is that obedience still IS part of a Christian's life. The difference that takes time to sink in is that the obedience of a Christian is NEVER to the LAW. As Romans 4:15 says, "the Law brings about wrath", and Romans 5:20 says "the law came in so that the transgression would increase."
Now, being born again and alive to the Spirit who indwells me, I am called to be obedient to Jesus Himself. Oh, I can choose to ignore Him, and that doesn't make me "unsaved" at that moment; it doesn't mean my sanctification is thwarted or that I may I've fallen out of favor or "made Jesus sad". It just means I've chose at that moment to be willful and to act in the flesh.
As a born-again Christian, my fear is not losing salvation or incurring God's wrath (which is no longer directed toward me) or guilt over disappointing Jesus or causing Him to turn His face away. (Remember how we were taught that God doesn't love naughty children? Nonsense!)
Now the issue is that I'm not living in intimacy with Him, and I'm not growing in Him if I'm persisting in willfulness. And Christ followers absolutely can fall into sin—sometimes BIG sins. 1 Corinthians addresses all manner of persistent and big sins in that church—and Paul addresses them as "brothers". They ARE born again Christians.
Now, however, we are addressing surrender and obedience from a position of victory, not from a position of trying to attain victory. We are still called to obey and submit, but it's not so we'll "know God better". It's so we will have deeper integrity. It's so we will not have divided hearts and subversive motives. It's not even so we'll be victorious. We're already victorious in Jesus!
But now, God makes us aware of our deep split loyalties, our secret places of indulgence, our private vulnerable spots where temptation can divert us. He calls us to wholeness and total vulnerability with Him. He calls us to choose to surrender our "rights" to privately indulge in sins which can masquerade as defending our rights, upholding our reputations, clinging to our freedoms.
Now the Holy Spirit calls us to submit and to offer ourselves as living sacrifices—and He is usually pretty clear what particular thing He wants us to release to Him. And now, as saved Christians who are indwelt by the Spirit, we are called to obey. We are called to release our rights to sin.
God saves us IN our sin; He cleans us up after saving us. Our obedience is to His healing of our deeply split and divided hearts, to His grace and love urging us to trust Him instead of protecting or indulging ourselves.
The difference between this and the sorts of disciplines Schilt teaches is huge. It's not our job to do things to come into relationship with Jesus. He awakens us and brings us to Him. That's why obedience is to Him, not to a law or to a system of disciplines.
I'm not sure if this makes sense, but I do see a real place for talking to people who already KNOW Jesus about obedience. It's not for the sake of salvation. It's for the sake of allowing Him to rescue us from the sin we were in when He saved us.
Until we are rooted deeply in the true gospel and secure in our salvation, however, these kinds of exhortations rub us wrong. (And to be sure, some people DO preach obedience as a means of being right with God—but that's not the situation I'm addressing.)
Colleen |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 765
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, May 08, 2009 - 1:51 pm: | |
It's like a child who is born into a family. It's not the child's job to make sure that he obeys his parents; it's the parents' job. The parents spank the child when he disobeys, but the child isn't OUT OF THE FAMILY when he disobeys. He still is in the family.
Likewise when a person is born again, he is in the family of God. God "spanks" him when he disobeys (see Hebrews 12:5,6), but the child of God isn't out of His family. He is still saved. |
Cathy2
Registered user
Username: Cathy2
Post Number: 348
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Friday, May 08, 2009 - 3:16 pm: | |
Colleen,
As usual, you made it clear and summed it up--
"I'm not sure if this makes sense, but I do see a real place for talking to people who already KNOW Jesus about obedience. It's not for the sake of salvation. It's for the sake of allowing Him to rescue us from the sin we were in when He saved us."
Also, the way you explain submission to Christ is obedience.
Wonderful, loving Lord to obey and trust!
Cathy2 |
Cathy2
Registered user
Username: Cathy2
Post Number: 349
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Friday, May 08, 2009 - 3:20 pm: | |
Seekinglight,
You put it another, great way the main point of my posts--
"The only way I've found to successfully deal with sinful thoughts/feelings is to behold Jesus--it's as "simple" as that! This is a step we can take to die to self and rise with Christ."
Nothing truly changes without Christ through the Holy Spirit. Or remains changed.
God bless,
Cathy2 |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 368
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 3:57 am: | |
Good answer Colleen, and very clear as usual, at least to me :-)
There is an article in the March/April Proclamation (which I just got!) on Resurrection life, starting on page 7, which covers these issues pretty well, I thought. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 4752
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 6:33 am: | |
Doc,
I am still reading your article you sent me, I hope to comment is a few days. Where does the time go?
Praying for you on that side of the pond.
River |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 369
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 12:56 pm: | |
Thanks River,
I need it, believe me. (Where, indeed?)
Adrian |
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