| Author | Message | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 747 Registered: 7-2007 |
Before I begin, I want you to be certain that I'm NOT advocating sin. No no no! When a person becomes a Christian, part of the "package" of that is being SEALED with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13,14) and He CHANGES people! How do I say this without it sounding like "greasy grace?" Let's see.... The apostle Paul said (to believers) in Ephesians 2:8,9 "by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED." Think about it. These people had believed on the Lord and were sealed (Ephesians 1:13,14). Now Paul is telling then that they HAD BEEN SAVED. (See also 2nd Tim. 1:9 and Titus 3:5) Doesn't Ellen White warn that you must be vigilant and overcome every sin in order to be saved? That's NOT what the Bible says. Now, notice 1st John 2:12 "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake." That's ALL sins; past, present and future! The gospel is RADICALLY GOOD NEWS and so many people miss it, thinking that SOMETHING is up to them. The ONLY thing that will cause people to be lost is not accepting Jesus' sacrifice for their sins. Every other sin has been paid for. 1th John 2:2 says Jesus paid for the sins of "THE WHOLE WORLD." Religion says "do do do." Christianity says "DONE." When I was an Adventist, I couldn't quite accept Jesus sacrifice in my behalf because Ellen White said that no one should say that they are saved. Oh, I told people that one was saved by grace, but I didn't understand that and couldn't accept it completely. Therefore I was lost. It wasn't until I found out that Ellen White and the SDA church was wrong, that I was able to really BELIEVE the gospel! | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 363 Registered: 2-2003  |
Hey, OK, I'm going to get into trouble again here, but... First of all, I realise that Adventists/ex-Adventists need to be really sure that they are saved in Christ, without having to obey any of the precepts of the Mosaic law, and without having to worry whether they have "done enough to be worthy of salvation." That is fine and great and really needs to be absolutely clear. However... I have a problem with this idea of future sins being forgiven at the time of conversion, because: 1. This does not seem to be explicitly taught in the Scriptures, and 2. There are verses which seem to me to contradict it, like: "If anyone does not have them (qualities listed), he is short-sighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins." (2Peter 1: 9). (Past sins, not future ones) "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." (1John 1: 8-9). This second verse is also from 1John. Don't forget, he is writing to Christians here. So, if all our future sins have been forgiven at the point of conversion, what on earth is the point of confessing them in order to be forgiven? I am fully aware that I may be missing something here, so if there is a verse which teaches that my future sins have been forgiven, I would be quite open to accept it. I have to say, though, that I am not the sort of guy that will accept teaching by being yelled at for being a heretic, so I had better fall into line :-) So, please help me... Adrian | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1963 Registered: 8-2004  |
Claiming to be without sin seems different to me than claiming that your sins are forgiven. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4701 Registered: 9-2006  |
Well Doc, Yes the Bible does teach us that if we sin we have an advocate with the father, But is this to be saved all over again or to again regain fellowship with the father? What do you think? River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2718 Registered: 10-2004  |
Adrian, I know that you know Greek and that I do not, but just looking at this, it seems to me that you are misusing that word for "past." To me, it looks like it means that all of our sins are gone, "old," past, no more, blotted out and put away/done away with (Hebrews 9:26) by the blood of Jesus Christ. As for 1 John 1:8-9, the over all Biblical teaching that I've seen indicates that there are two (at least) types of forgiveness--eternal/legal forgiveness (salvation) and temporal/relational forgiveness (having to do with our fellowship with God while on this earth). And I just found this page from the great website gotquestions.org which happens to go along with what I had found to be Biblical: http://www.gotquestions.org/confession-forgiveness.html
And here are some other great verses: http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/trueconfession.html Think about it: God is not even inside time, how could He possibly forgive only our "past" sins? Jeremy P.S. I don't believe this is an appropriate forum for trying to teach people that their sins have not been forgiven! (Message edited by Jeremy on May 02, 2009) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2719 Registered: 10-2004 |
All of our sins were forgiven at the Cross (and for those of us born after the Cross, all of our sins were "future sins" at that time!). Otherwise, as Hebrews says, Jesus would have had to suffer often! Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2720 Registered: 10-2004 |
And here is a very important part of Hebrews 10 that I left out:
If our future sins have not been forgiven, then Jesus must come again and sacrifice Himself again! But the fact that He made one sacrifice once for all, means that all of our sins have been forgiven, according to this verse.
God doesn't even keep a record of our sins--how can they possibly be unforgiven? Adrian, there is a reason why we are no longer Seventh-day Adventists--we do not believe in the Investigative Judgement where God keeps track of our sins! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 02, 2009) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2721 Registered: 10-2004 |
God does not even take our sins into account. Jeremy P.S. Yes, this is a subject that can get me worked up!  | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 750 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jeremy; AMEN!!! Very good answers! Adrian, if your future sins haven't been forgiven, your salvation is based on your performance and not on Jesus. If you can't do anything to earn it, you can't do anything to lose it. Also, if your future sins haven't been forgiven, you're lost, because then you'd sin again and be lost. A person never knows when they'll sin again - even a simple lack of faith, or being jealous or mad at someone is sin. So, without knowing that ALL OUR SINS, past, present and future; are forgiven, a person lives a life of fear and despair. A person might as well stay an Adventist... Catholic... Mormon... Muslim... J.Witness... because their salvation is based on them again. Also, there's a BIG difference between a saved person and an unsaved person. A saved person is in the family of God. God is his Father. For an unsaved person, God is his Judge. God DISCIPLINES those who are His children, but judges those who are not. When one of His children sin, He "spanks" them, but doesn't throw them out of the family. When they sin, their fellowship with the Father is broken, but not their relationship. They are still saved. Otherwise how could Paul say in Ephesians 2:8,9 that believers "HAVE BEEN SAVED" ?? And how could he say that after a person believes on Jesus they are "SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is the GUARANTEE of our INHERITANCE" ?? (Ephesians 1:13,14) Dianne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2722 Registered: 10-2004 |
Exactly, Dianne. We are continuously sinning, and if the only way to "stay saved" is to confess our sins, then how often must this be done? And after how long of "not confessing" our sins do we lose our salvation? Or are we automatically lost every time we sin until we confess our sins again? It would seem that according to this theory, we would actually be "unsaved" all the time! How could Paul ever tell anyone they were "saved"?! Also, if this were true, then surely God would have given us the answers to these questions so we could make sure we "stay saved"! And yet there is nothing like that in the Bible. Adrian, I am serious with these questions. If you don't have actual, practical answers to these questions how are you supposed to even know how to be saved?? Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 02, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4702 Registered: 9-2006 |
Boy howdy Jeremy, you sure did. It's a good thing I never get worked up. River | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1660 Registered: 4-2000  |
Jeremy, Thank you for quoting Ps. 32:1,2 as Paul did in Romans 4:7,8. This fundamental soteriological truth transcends covenantal distinctives. The assurance of our salvation is vital to our spiritual lives. Without it our growth is retarded and we are assailed with crippling doubts. No true believer ever loses his salvation. To be sure, Christians fall at times seriously and radically, but never fully and finally. We persevere, not because of our strength but because of God's grace that preserves us. Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on May 02, 2009) | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 94 Registered: 9-2006 |
Like Dennis said, this assurance is vital to our spiritual lives. As part of our desperate need for total assurance, we not only commit behaviors that are sinful, we do them because of what we are. We are by nature objects of wrath, having inherited Adam's guilt. I was lost when I was only a zygote. This is not physical or behavioral, it is spiritual. It was not our specific behaviors which made us lost, so the pardon of behaviors alone cannot save. But we have a "once for all" sacrifice of God as our substitute and eternal high priest. Because of that complete and eternal act, the indwelling Spirit can seal us forever. Otherwise, our situation is completely hopeless. Is it not the believer who is justified, and not his behaviors? (Message edited by Martinc on May 02, 2009) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9764 Registered: 12-2003  |
Adrian, this question also plagued me until I understood that, as Martin and jeremy have indicated, we have two "things" going on: First and foremost, we have our inherited guilt from Adam which renders us born with dead spirits, disconnected from God. This is our true, natural "sin". It underlies our "sins"—the deeds we do that transgress against God and our fellow man. Jesus' death and resurrection undid our natural DEATH. Romans 5 details this process. Paul even says in Romans 5 that sin was in the world before the Law, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses... Jesus' death undid our natural sin which caused us to be born dead. It is our being imputed with the actual life of Jesus, His resurrection life, that broke the reign of sin in us. Because we are spiritually alive when we accept Jesus, we finally have new power to begin to overcome sins. Romans 8 explains how, in the Spirit's power, we can put to death the deeds of the flesh. Because our spirits are alive, we are still in relationship with Jesus because we have His Spirit and His life. We still commit "sins" because we are still in sinful flesh, but these "sins" are the "cling-ons" of our still-mortal flesh, not the outgrowth of hearts belonging to the domain of darkness. We still need to confess these sins because they cause us to pull away from God and also from each other. When we rationalize instead of acting in faith, we suppress the Spirit's voice and assert our flesh. But these individual sins are not causing us to lose our resurrection life which is ours because of faith in Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit. If "sins" were our SIN problem, we'd really HAVE a problem. But what makes us lost by nature is our spiritual death we're born with. Once God makes us alive, He does ask us to put down roots and to allow His gospel to become more important to us than worldly concerns--but this growth is the work of the Holy Spirit. Jesus' once-for-all sacrifice UNDID death, and sin reigned in death. With our new life, "sins" are no longer our definition. Now we have the power to say no to sin, and we have the Holy Spirit in us convicting us to repent of them when we do them. This repentance maintains and grows us with our Father; it does not mean we lost our spiritual life. Because death has been undone for the believer, SIN is no longer our master. Now, our "sins" are our plagues that are related to our mortal flesh, but they are not related to our natural death. We don't die when we commit sins if we are believers. But we do have to ask forgiveness, just as we do when we hurt a loved one. There is a rift that prevents intimacy when we don't repent, and that rift can become more and more defining. But our life is life from God, and He does not undo our life from Him. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1894 Registered: 10-2002  |
Hi Adrian, I think Colleen & Jeremy & everybody covered it well. That our 'future' sins are forgiven (indeed, this is normal considering that Christ died before any of us were ever born), and yet we still need to ask for forgiveness. I think both things are true. A sort of picture of this is when Jesus washed the feet of His disciples. He said they were already clean because of His word, and had already "had a bath". But if you think about life, just walking around your feet get dirty. It doesn't change the fact that you've had a bath and are fully "clean". But you still step in some junk just being alive. So we've got to clean our feet -- and help one another clean each other's feet from all the daily junk we go through and step into. Not a perfect analogy, but I like it. Bless you in Jesus, Ramone | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 295 Registered: 8-2008 |
One thing I'd point out is that this rift isn't because of God. God isn't steaming angry with us Christians when we sin, becaues no matter what, when He looks at a Christian He sees His Son. But the rift is because the shame it creates in us makes it hard for us to relate to Him. If you've ever wronged someone real bad, you know how difficult it is to hang around with them until things have been patched up. The same situation applies with God. We can feel it, and it's called guilt and shame. God does not desire either for us. When Adam and Eve sinned, God comes down to be with the just like always, but it is Adam and Eve who can't take being near Him, not the other way around. God knew they had sinned, but He still loved them and had a plan already in place to solve the problems created by their stupidity. The use of fig leaves represents their attempts to cover their shame. This is the nature of sin. (Message edited by bskillet on May 03, 2009) (Message edited by bskillet on May 03, 2009) | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 478 Registered: 5-2004 |
Ok, I love this discussion and the answers provided. But i do have a technical question here too. How does the punishment of Ananias and Sophira fit in here. Why weren't their present sins forgiven...or are we to assume they were never really saved to begin with? Also, what about the verse that says that if someone's tasted of the good of salvation (I think it actually mentions the HS) and turns away that there will be no more sacrifice for them? I'm assuming that these ideas deal with the fact that we don't really know about any elses salvation and whether or not it's really true. If they're exhibiting the works of the HS in their lives then that'd be evidence that it's true. And in our own lives we can know for certain that all our sins are covered: past, present, future. Though as saved, we won't continue to live "in sin" though it still is at work in our bodies of flesh... | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1967 Registered: 8-2004 |
Is there any reason to assume that Ananias and Sapphira were not saved? They received temporal death as a punishment but is there anywhere in the text that requires it to have been eternal as well? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4706 Registered: 9-2006 |
That's a good question Mary, one of course that I can't assume to have answers for now that the question has been asked, I just always assumed that they were not saved and that reminds me we cannot assume anything in scripture that the Bible does not tell us.That's what I get for assuming. Esther, I am assuming that you are referring to this, Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Context is important, for after we are exhorted we come to this verse Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. Is falling away things that accompany salvation? What do you think accompanies salvation having the earnest of Gods Spirit placed within us? Hebrews 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. So what he is saying here is don't be slothful in ministering to those around. Be followers of those who dedicate their lives to the ministry. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2723 Registered: 10-2004 |
River's right, Esther. Always read to the end of the chapter if you find a text like that. Also, with Ananias and Sapphira, I don't think there is anything in that passage that necessarily indicates that they aren't saved. Again, it may just have to do with the relational/discipline thing. According to the New Testament, sometimes, when we sin severely the Lord says that that's enough and He stops us from sinning by killing us and taking us home to be with Himself! This is taught explicitly in 1 Corinthians 11:
Notice that he calls them "brothers" and he says that they are being judged/disciplined (including being killed!) so that they will not be condemned along with the world (the unsaved). And, actually, this is another proof that you don't have to confess your sins in order to "stay saved"! These people did not confess their sins, the Lord Jesus killed them, and yet they are with Jesus Himself in heaven right now enjoying salvation with Jesus!!! Isn't that something?! (It's a whole new way of thinking from Adventism, isn't it?! Hehe.) Another passage that might relate to this also is 1 John 5:
(Here is a previous post where I discussed the above passage.) Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 03, 2009) |
