| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4707 Registered: 9-2006  |
Jeremy says, According to the New Testament, sometimes, when we sin severely the Lord says that that's enough and He stops us from sinning by killing us and taking us home to be with Himself! I started to say that very same thing, but I thought sure as crap they are going to jump me if I do, but I joyfully hang Jeremy's neck out there. Ha!  River | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 369 Registered: 10-2008 |
Two cents worth ... The passage in first 1 John 1:8-9 ... "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Early in 1 John in verses 1-4 when I took Greek there is a verb in Greek that we don't have in English ... The Greek verb indicates past tense, present tense, AND future tense ... What I remember was our prof. indicating that John is saying in the beginning of John that what he SAW, Continues to SEE, and WILL SEE testifies to God. In other words God is active in the past, present and will be in the future ... our testimony encompasses all of that - vs. 2 saws wee have seen it, we testify to it, and proclaim it ( meaning the future). I was trying to find whether that verb is used in 1 John 1:8-9. Could the verb forgive indicate this same Greek tense ... forgive past, present and future. Sorry, it has been awhile since I've taken Greek and I was trying to find it .. I don't have time to do the research ... but I wouldn't be surprised it did. I will try to find it and post later. Esther, Also, the Heb. 6:4-6 verse ... I don't have time to post much NOW, but I will try later ... BUT it is interesting - if I remember a recent study in my ABF they pointed out that the pronouns/nouns change from the verses before 4-6 and then change in the verse 4-6 and then change back ... which seems to indicate that Heb. 6:4-6 shows that the people he is speaking of are "unbelievers" ... Example: In verses 6:1-3 ... it says "WE" then in verses 4-6 it says, "THEY" and "THOSE WHO" then back in 9-12 it goes back to "WE". Therefore, it seems that Paul is talking about believers, then switches to unbelievers (seed that has not taken root), then he goes back to talking about believers. When they shared that in the Bible study I remember thinking - I need to remember this, because Heb. 6:4-6 is one of THOSE passages that is disputed and debated about. I think it is also interesting in Mathew 7: 21-23 indicates that a person can show the fruits of a "Holy Spirit" driven life and still not be saved. HMMM - wow ... You can prophesy, drive out demons in Jesus name, and even perform miracles - BUT Jesus can say, "Away from me, you evil-doers! - I don't KNOW YOU" Deeds are NOT the issue ... The life of Jesus in us and us in Him - being brought from death to life by the blood of Jesus Christ, and KNOWING and placing all FAITH in Him as the bridegroom Who alone saves... that is the issue --- Sanctification is not far from Justification - BOTH are from God - therefore we can not boast regarding our salvation AND our deeds. "Apart from Christ we can do nothing" of eternal value. ALL is of Jesus. That is why His yoke is easy and His burden is light. I just spoke with a woman who talked about doing the church thing - she is not an Adventist - for many, many years. She went to many different Christian denominations - But she was not saved. You can look "saved" and still not be "saved". That is why NO ONE can judge. I think a telling question is, "If you were to die tonight, would Jesus take you home with Him?" If the answer is I'm not sure ... I would "assume" they might not be saved. When you are saved and the Holy Spirit is in your heart - You generally know it - when you base it on Jesus and Jesus alone. The end of my two cents - and I won't even charge that in this disastrous economy. Keri Gotta run ... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9768 Registered: 12-2003  |
Also, Esther, I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that in A Biblical Theology of the Old Testament edited by Roy Zuck the author Dr. Constable says in a footnote in his commentary on the book of judges that the death of Achan and the death of Ananias and Saphira were similar. In Achan's case, Israel was just beginning to enter the land and inhabit it as a nation. The issue with Achan happened in one of the first conquests, and God made sure that as Israel began a completely new era, the sin of Achan lying and stealing did not get overlooked. Achan served as a lesson to all of Israel in a way similar to the passage from 1 Corinthians Jeremy quoted above. Similarly, Ananias and Saphira's complicit lie occurred in the very early beginning of the church. God didn't let them get away with it and thus set an immoral example and have the fledgling church believe they could play games with God. And as Jeremy, Jeremiah, and River have said, there's nothing in the passage to suggest that the two were not actually saved. It's an idea we grew up with that if God kills, it means "not saved". But the passage Jeremy quoted in 1 Corinthians is clear that God's discipline of believers is for the purpose of preservation, not for the purpose of destruction. Colleen | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 479 Registered: 5-2004 |
Thanks everyone... Just to clarify, i wasn't questioning the absoluteness of our salvation, but just wondering how those Biblical exampes fit into that belief in assurance. I guess I'd never really made the connection with what I have accepted from the OT (that the deaths of the peoples wasn't necessarily w/out chance of salvation) into the NT and especially into the case of Ananias and Sophira. It's easy to still view death as a loss of salvation...sigh | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 753 Registered: 7-2007 |
Colleen; I was just re-reading what you wrote and noticed something. If I'm not mistaken, the SDA church considers the "law" (the Ten Commandments, at least) to be eternal - both going backwards into eternity and forwards. You mentioned Romans 5:13, where it says that sin was in the world BEFORE THE LAW. That clearly says that the law had a beginning. (Also Gal. 3:17 says that the law came 430 years AFTER Abraham!) I've been writing to my SDA sister, telling her that she needs to read the New Covenant (New Testament) to see just which law(s) are in the New Covenant. I've also been telling her that now we are in the "ministry of the Spirit" rather then in the "ministry of death, written and engraved on stones." (2nd Corinthians 3:7,8) I'd like to say a bit more to those who might be reading this who are Adventists: Can you "put your weight down on these verses in Ephesians? Or do you have to come up with a sort of middle ground between them and Ellen White? Ephesians 2:8,9 says: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT of God, NOT of works, lest anyone should boast." (see also 2nd Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) If you can't quite COMPLETELY BELIEVE it, if you cannot "put your weight down" on Jesus' sacrifice for you and accept it, then you aren't saved. The ONLY people who are saved are those who have COMPLETELY ACCEPTED Jesus' sacrifice for themselves. Not people who think there is something they must accomplish themselves before they can be saved - whether it's "confessing every sin" or "making it through the investigative judgment" or "perfecting one's character." Just like in the first Passover, the only ones spared are the ones who have the BLOOD. That's all. No questions were asked of the inhabitants of the homes passed over. "Are they good enough?" "Have they confessed all their sins?" No. The only question was, "do they have the BLOOD?" | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 117 Registered: 3-2009 |
And His blood transforms me. I don't always feel like I'm being transformed, but because the Bible says so, I will claim the promise! | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 226 Registered: 10-2008  |
If I can through my two cents in here as well. I've heard it put this way. Sin may not break your union with Christ but it certainly can affect your communion with Christ. for example if you and your spouse have an argument and you are unjust and unfair in that argument and sin-your union is still in tact (you are not divorced by one argument-you're still married) but your communion is affected (you just had a fight, you're probably not cozying up to each other on the couch watching a movie) There has to be restoration of some sort which could be likeened to the ongoing confession that we need to do with God when we sin. 1 John 1:9 Enoch | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 382 Registered: 10-2008 |
Can't break your union, but can affect your communion! I like the example, Enoch. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9771 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes—the law had a beginning and an ending. The SDA insistence that the Law is eternal is seriously bad exegesis—and it avoids the truth that God alone is eternal. His personal word to Adam was the "law" he and Eve broke. The 10 Commandments never were the "transcript of God's character". They were the very words of the covenant God made with Israel (Ex 34:28). Moreover, God didn't give the 10 Commandments as a tool for revealing Himself. He gave them as His divine medium for revealing humanity's depravity (Romans 3:20-21; 5:20). We've understood it backwards and inside-out: the law is not a revelation (or transcript) of God's character or even of righteous behavior. It is the tool God gave to reveal to mankind that he is a hopeless sinner. The law, Romans 4:15 says, brings wrath, and where there is no law there also is no violation. The law was all about revealing our depravity and of seeing the contrast between ourselves and God, of understanding that we are separated from Him naturally. It brought wrath and a curse. Jesus became that curse (Gal 3:13) and became our sin (2 Cor 5:21) so we could become His righteousness (2 Cor 5:21). Totally amazing. Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 757 Registered: 7-2007 |
That's an excellent example Enoch! This is something that I'm writing my SDA sister about too. Also I'm trying to point out to her, that just like in the case of a child born into a family; so it is in the case of a born again Christian. As it's the responsibility of the parents to teach that child to obey and also to discipline that child; so it's God's responsibility to teach His children to obey and to discipline them. (Now I'm not talking about people who just mouth the right words in order to get "fire insurance" or to "fit in" with their Christian friends or something. There are fake believers. I knew of such a person - although I don't know for sure his spiritual state. He was on the pastoral staff of one of the churches in the area. I think he was caught though, because his name no longer appears on the weekly church bulletin. I'm talking about real believers who have accepted Jesus as their Savior. When one really becomes a believer, the Holy Spirit indwells them and they can't help, but produce "fruit" eventually.) It's impossible for anyone in Adventism, Mormonism, Catholicism, etc. to understand that, because they don't have the Holy Spirit with Whom every believer is sealed. (see Ephesians 1:13,14 and Romans 8:9) All they have are laws and rules to try to go by and compare themselves to in order to "see" how "good" they're doing. Have you noticed how all the false "Christian" religions have to add rules in order to make themselves appear "Christian?" When a person becomes a Christian, they quickly realize that a RELATIONSHIP with God really means a RELATIONSHIP with God. They find that the Bible makes sense just the way it reads and they don't have to force it to fit someone else's interpretation (Ellen White's) anymore. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 365 Registered: 2-2003  |
Hello all, Well, I finally got back here again. I’d like to thank you all for your comments, they have been most helpful and thought provoking. I am aware of a lot of the arguments, I have probably even used a few of them myself. Jeremy, You’re right that I did not actually check the Greek of 2 Peter, but now I have and, with my extremely inadequate knowledge of the language, it does appear there may possibly be alternative ways of translating it, e.g. “receiving forgetfulness of the cleansing of his past sins” or “receiving forgetfulness of the cleansing in the past of his sins.” The word order would indicate the former, and this is how the NIV translates it, but due to the nature of word order in the Greek language, it is not conclusive. You are quite right that this is not the place to tell people their sins have not been forgiven, and if I gave the impression that is what I meant, then I apologise most humbly for upsetting anyone. I am not talking about the investigative judgement, I have never been Adventist. You asked how I could have assurance of salvation, well I have that because the Bible teaches me that I can have it, for instance, 1John 5:13: “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know you have eternal life.” I am justified by faith in Christ, Romans 3:21-26. So, because I have a relationship with God through faith in the blood of Jesus Christ his Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit, then there is no reason for me not to have assurance. And as has been pointed out, we need this in order “not to go crazy”, or however someone put it. My background is different from that of most people here, and perhaps I sometimes forget that. I really have no idea of how any of you feel, or of what you have had to go through to get free of a mind-control cult and discover the actual Biblical gospel. Though one positive point is that people who do come to the gospel that way tend to make very dedicated Christians. I am grateful to God for all of you who have got this far. My journey has been a bit different. I have come from another direction and have had to fight different enemies. I was brought up in a Baptist family, and the doctrine taught was “eternal security”, though I don’t remember if the actual expression was used. The ideas I remember, were that if you had “had a personal experience” of meeting the Lord, then you were saved. So efforts were concentrated on bringing people to the point of accepting Christ by faith and being baptised. Unfortunately, what this produced was a lot of apathetic, lazy church-goers, who basically showed very little signs of having any relationship with God. There were some exceptions, like my parents, who were definitely a good example for me. Back to the idea of future sins being forgiven. Based on my background, I have been hearing this all my Christian life, and have no doubt told people exactly that when they came to faith, but recently it has just been bugging me. I have started to investigate whether the Bible actually teaches it, and as yet I have found no real basis for it. But, as I said before, I may be missing something. I have not found the answer to this yet, I am still working on it. River, No, people don’t get unsaved whenever they sin and saved again when they confess. That is probably an Adventist idea, as well as Roman Catholic (with mortal sins), and maybe other cults teach it too. Martinc, Yes, it is the believer that is justified. Agreed. Jrt, The verb tense in 1John 1:1-4 you are talking about is the perfect. This refers to something that happened in the past which has a continuing effect on the present (and hence into the future too, I guess), a bit like the English perfect, but not exactly. The verbs in 1:8-9 are not in the same tense. It is a while since I took Greek too, but I think “confess” and “forgive” are in the present subjunctive and “cleanse” is in the aorist subjunctive. The present is a continuous tense in Greek, so this means it goes something like: “If we keep on confessing our sins, he is faithful and just to keep on forgiving us our sins, and will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” God bless you all for being patient with each other, and hopefully with me :-) Adrian | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 387 Registered: 10-2008 |
Adrian, Thank you so much for clarifying the Greek. It has been SO long sense I took it - I really couldn't decipher it. Thanks for clarifying! I was going to email or call a prof. and find out more - but you saved me that time. I'd still like to dissect 1 John 1:8-9 a little more ... Is "confess" and "forgive" the present subjunctive? Explain present subjunctive again ... meaning happened in the past, continuing "effect" on the present (and hence into the future, too) I understand present means continuing .... I'm just curious, because it might reflect on the forgiving of future sins ... Adrian, thank you for sharing your background! My pastor comes from a similar background and I know that he sometimes preaches quite directly against sin - because he, too, sees people have become "lazy" in following Jesus after becoming "secured" in their salvation. Hope I said that right. And that is the "other" side of the coin ... Adventists have been hyper-sensitive about sin and formers are completely relieved that finally they can "rest" in their salvation. EGW said any unconfessed sin could keep you out of the kingdom. So we have our own "issues" to contend with. Thank you for sharing your journey! It helps me see through different eyes and understand more where my pastor is coming from too. Blessings, Keri (JRT) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4728 Registered: 9-2006 |
Doc, I had to confess I kind of smiled when you stepped in that one. Worst thing you can do is ask a question like that on this forum, unless of course you want pummeled, Haaa! You gotta realize that this is a people that for the most part have spent a lifetime in the misery of having no assurance whatsoever. As for the past, present and future thing I can't think of a scripture that expressly spells this out in that wording, I don't believe there is any. However, the concept is that one has been saved. Period. and there are scripture that spell that out. I had never heard of the past, present and future thing before I came to this forum and I have been a Christian a small while, least to say I have a few sermons under my belt, even read a little. But what the concept is, is that for the former Adventist who has spent a lifetime without assurance is that they can rest in the arms of Jesus. No matter what the Adventist tell them, or anybody else, they can feel loved and assured and safe within the arms of God, having that blessed rest and hope eternal forevermore. To the never been, this is not so important the never been has never been subjected to the torture of a person who alls of a sudden finds he has been in a cult all his/her born days. I was never raised up in the Calvinistic fire insurance business, but I hear business is booming. But in the final analysis what part of saved don't we understand? The gospel message is a simple message, its just simple, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be, have been, will be saved. If it was complicated then only the educated would have a chance, but even the mentally retarded can be saved. However, giving mental assent to obtain fire insurance is not what believing on means, it has a deeper meaning like, lean heavily upon, trust in, Repent and believe on. Believing on, leaning heavily upon, helplessly upon, brings repentance and humbles us before an almighty God knowing we cannot save ourselves. So resting in,leaning heavily upon, essentially means past present and future, even future forever's over eons of forever's and the Former Adventist don't have to worry about no IJ,EG's no more and it makes me want to jump for joy for them and for myself, because our past present and futures are all wrapped up in him, for him and by him. That got long, but I couldn't quit. River P.S. Anybody at all feel free to correct my thinking. P.S. Again. Doc, stepping in that around here is like stepping in cow pucky, it gets all over you. | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 120 Registered: 3-2009 |
Doc & Keri, you mentioned this idea of lazy Christians who are assured of their salvation but don't live like they're saved. Here are a few questions I have for anyone who wants to tackle 'em: What are these people supposed to do? Pray & read the Bible more? Surrendering sins to Jesus? Stop sinning? Join a group of some kind? If they're already saved, what are they supposed to do to get their lives on the right track? | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 391 Registered: 10-2008 |
River, Woa! Preach it brother! Thanks for the excitement of the cross and resurrection! Yep, my eyes are always pretty misty when it comes to Grace - now that I understand it with new eyes. Seekinglight, A friend of mine - also transitioning out of Adventism forwarded a u tube sermon to me several months ago --- It was a never-been SDA who was preaching about the "laziness" of Christians who claim salvation and then do as they please ... It was an interesting take --- For me, I've always wondered about my salvation until recently ... So after getting a full glimpse of Grace - I don't want to do ANYTHING that would reflect badly on the Grace I have received. I am beginning to vaguely understand the mindset of someone who has grown up believing they are saved and have let their first Love die - grace is a "nice" "catch-word" for them ... Do we hit them over the head with the "law"? Don't think so - and I know you weren't implying that ... Good questions you ask ... I believe that turning and facing Jesus, submitting ourselves to Him is primary - Does that mean that addictions or "sins" fall away automatically? Sometimes, but most often people need more help ... So yes, sometimes people need to join a support group ... I like 2 Sam. 12:13 ... Where the first words out of David's mouth after being confronted with his sin with Bathsheba was "I have sinned against the Lord." Why didn't David say, "I blew it and hurt Uriah - I sinned against Uriah or Bathsheba or brought reproach upon Israel?" David turned to the Lord and recognized that his sin was against God Himself. So to answer your question - at least how I understand it currently is for the "lazy" Christian to turn his face to Jesus and say, "I have sinned against You, Lord." Then he/she can join a support group if needed, counseling, accountability partner, whatever ... When we recognize our sin and confess it to God the Holy Spirit gives us the power to heal and overcome - or directs us to avenues of health and healing if it is a besetting addiction or problem ... What do you think, seekinglight? I always appreciate your thoughts. Keri | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9776 Registered: 12-2003 |
Seekinglight, good question. I've struggled with related questions also. For me, the parable of the soils in Matthew 13 helps. There are four different soils; one is fertile and grows a huge yield. Another is totally unreceptive and the birds eat the seeds. The other two actually receive the seeds, and they germinate. In one, the plants grow quickly and apparently are healthy, but they have no roots and die when the heat comes. The other grows plants that are puny and choked by the weeds that share the soil: worldly cares and concerns. So, do the two soils producing sickly plants represent saved people? Frankly, I think that's a question none of us can answer regarding another person. But I believe the admonitions in Jesus' teaching and in all the epistles to forsake sins and to live like God's children are admonitions to each of us. We are commanded to examine ourselves. If we have accepted Jesus, we have His Spirit in us, even if we are weak Christians. And even if we have nodded towards belief and associated ourselves with the body of Christ (as it seems those soils may signify) that doesn't necessarily mean we have surrendered our lives to Him. It is that ongoing surrender, that willingness to face what God brings before us and to hold loosely the things that we love and desire, that brings about growth. The rootless plants represent people who have not rooted themselves in Jesus. They are superficially "Christian", but they haven't opened themselves to being shaped by His word and to surrendering to Him. Likewise the plants among the weeds. They have not allowed the Holy Spirit to root out their worldly cares and desires, and their spiritual growth is compromised. They are weak. Once we have placed faith in the Lord Jesus and repented for our sin, we are then in a position to surrender to Him. And, Seekinglight, it is not so much "sin" that I think we surrender as "ourselves". When I am faced with a huge urge to behave badly or to deliver a sarcastic retort or to indulge in self-pity or to emotionally check out as a passive-aggressive response, I am also aware, now that I have been born again, that I have a concurrent option: I can submit myself to the Lord Jesus. I can either indulge the "self-justified" behavior, or I can look to Jesus and give Him the moment. I can actually choose to pray, "Show me how to honor You and not do something to hurt another person." It is really hard to make that second choice if I'm really wrought up, but I am aware that it is now a real choice that I have. So while in a sense we end up "yielding sin" to Him, in a more direct sense, I'm yielding myself to Him. I'm surrendering my emotions and behavior to Him just for that moment, asking Him to show me how to be honorable and to trust Him and to stay in reality. It is this ongoing surrender that is our response as Christians. And I like what Jrt says about repenting for our wrongs and admitting that we sinned against the Lord. Ultimately, that's what our behavior is about: are we honoring or dishonoring the Lord Jesus? Before being saved, we do not have the option of surrendering our moments to the Holy Spirit. We might have will power, but we don't have the mind of Christ. Exercising will power will not push us toward salvation. And only after we have been brought to spiritual life can we surrender ourselves to the Lord Jesus and the promptings of His Spirit at the moment of aggravation or other temptation. Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 761 Registered: 7-2007 |
Seekinglight; In my own experience, I've had times where I felt, how do I put it? - well, neutral, lukewarm, unloving toward God. Whenever that happens, I simply ask God to help me love Him. It's just that simple and He really does! A few minutes or hours later, my heart is simply overflowing with love for Him and it's not myself. We really can't do anything without Him and that includes love and well, everything!!! The trouble with Adventists and anyone in a cult is that they think they can do all this "with Jesus' help." They don't know that there is nothing at all THEY can do. It's ALL from God and He gets the glory for everything! They don't understand how the Holy Spirit indwells a person. | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 344 Registered: 2-2006 |
Seekinglight, In answer to your good question (I've had it too), off the top of my head-- Complacent Christians could start, through the Holy Spirit's fruits-- Loving others better than themselves. That SELF problem everyone has. Forgiving others as we have been forgiven. (I struggle with this one a lot). Giving up sexual sin, which is legion in mainstream Christianity, I have observed for 20 years. Loving, forgiving, and giving up are all actions. We can't just sit around and think about it, expecting only a thought change to be a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Only talking about it doesn't cut it either. (Some Christians--especially Adventists--tend to be too intellectual) Change flows like this--Holy Spirit-Thoughts-Emotions-Actions and Speech. At times, in God's managment, we just obey without the emotions (they might come later). I've observed that I do not change and grow in Christ unless I act on what I know, think, feel and have learned. Jesus first told his men to "Come, follow me." Not "Think about it first." Or "Feel good that I asked you and love you". Christ was an action kind of God. We all have sin, but excusing it or ignoring it only makes the sin and its harms grow worse and more people being harmed. God bless in your seeking, Cathy2 I guess, I'd better go and act on my own sermon, now! Heh. You mean I gotta go and forgive my SDA sister? AAAHHH! God help me. I sure don't feel like it. We all need help and prayers in our sin. | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 345 Registered: 2-2006 |
Seekinglight, I just recalled that you are a psychology prof. So you would know about the concept "Change your thoughts, change your actions". I just added the true 1st cause, change agent--the Holy Spirit. Without Christ, no one truly changes/heals at core, imho. God bless you much, Cathy2 | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6868 Registered: 3-2004  |
Cathy2, Forgiveness is done so it won't be hanging over your head the rest of your life. It is done not to change the other person, but to change me/you. I had to forgive a sister also. The problem was and still is that if I spoken or written to her she would have denied it and it would have started the fight all over again. I belong to Celebrate Recovery, a Christ centered 12 step program. I spoke to the CR minister about forgiving her and how she is in denial. So he said write her a letter and read it to a good friend/sponsor, then tear it up/shred it. I did that and God has given me peace beyond understanding. I had to call her to apologize to her. That I knew she would not deny. Yes, it takes the Holy Spirit to change me and heal me. Diana l |
