| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1737 Registered: 10-2002  |
Hi everyone, Here are some thoughts I emailed to some friends in mid-January. There is a picture that goes with them, which I am meaning to put online soon. I'm sharing these thoughts here in part because I need to organize them and sort them out so I can put them up as the explanation for the picture. Bear with me! Bless you in Jesus! Ramone ***** I was discussing the "central pillar" of Adventism with some friends via email. Ellen White said it was the Sanctuary doctrine, and indeed Adventism is built on that. But functionally it seemed that "Sabbath" was the central pillar. Cherry Brandstater noted this well in her opening article to her three studies on the "Gently Broken" website. I realized that when talking with people who've doubted Adventism or found fault with its beliefs, they generally have trouble letting go of "Sabbath" most. In fact, even after finding problems with the SDA church/history/institution/package, they often stay in the church simply because they feel the Sabbath day is right. And when you tell them of problems here or there, they fall back on the Sabbath... they sort of run for safety there. The whole of the "house" can collapse before their eyes, but they feel Adventism had this one thing right. And even if the Adventist church collapses, in the ironic words of Fanny Crosby, "Don't Forget the Sabbath!" It reminded me of a friend's prophetic dream, in which a man saw the "package" of Adventism opened and all of its embarrassing contents were exposed. He fled to the central pillar in the church (instead of out of the church) and crouched at its base like a frightened child. Instinctively we [as Adventists] fled back to the one thing that we thought was good, that we thought was unassailable. The Sabbath was like our one, great, untouchable good work. It was our insurance in the investigative judgment. So theologically, the "building" of Adventism is built on 1844-Sanctuary-InvestigativeJudgment. But functionally, the central "unifying" pillar seems to be the Sabbath, and it's the one thing that like Cherry said [in her study], if removed will unravel everything else. A few nights later I was talking with God on the way to the bath, and felt Him impress my heart strongly about this "Sabbath-IJ" connection ("IJ" including the Millerism experience, 1844, the "sanctuary" reinterpretation and the Investigative Judgment). I wrote: This is why the "Sabbath" and "the Investigative Judgment" are both the "central pillar of Adventism". The Sabbath in Adventism is rooted in the Investigative Judgment. To put it another way, the IJ is the foundation, and Sabbath rests on it. Or the IJ is the cornerstone, and Sabbath is the capstone. "The Sabbath" came to Adventists at a time when they were still trying to interpretively explain their way out of 1844 without admitting error. They needed validation and justification, and that came from 'discovering' and adopting Sabbath. As they examined it, it seemed indeed like something that Christianity had gotten wrong (and it often has, but not to this degree). It thus provided a sense of validation to their whole journey -- "Look, this is what He has led us to through all of this! A critical, crucial passed-over truth! It's even right there in His law, set in stone!" It thus became the validation for the entire Adventist identity up to that point (appropriately it later went into their denominational name). The soul-roots of why people keep Sabbath are varied. Jews keep it because they believe it is God's command to them. Christians often keep it for the same reason, but transfered to Sunday instead, and intermixed with celebration of the resurrection. Adventism keeps Sabbath for the same reasons, but there's a deeper stronghold beneath it and which got it started in the first place. It's a fear of the end times, a fear of the investigative judgment, a fear of not being saved unless the Sabbath is kept. (Awhile ago when God led me out of the "soul sleep" belief, He uncovered before my eyes the fear of being deceived that had been the root--along with pride--of my clinging to that belief. Here, in the same way I believe He's uncovered before my eyes a spiritual "root" of Sabbath-keeping in Adventism). I remember someone at the prayer group years ago saying that the purpose of EGW's "Great Controversy" book was to show that Sabbath had been kept through all the ages by somebody (some "faithful" believers) since the beginning of the church. I don't know if that's how it's written or the purpose for which it was written, but I think it highlights things. It is basically the End (Omega) of Adventism, while 1844 was the Alpha of Adventism. Somehow it also became the capstone of Adventism. It became the theme to which all other things pointed. Not everyone these days gets the full IJ-treatment taught to them... I didn't, or at least it didn't stick with me fully enough to remember. But the simple, broken-down bottom-lines of it are taught. You need to keep this. It's important for the End Times. The whole SDA eschatological scenario is focused on that, and I think everyone gets at least some significant measure of SDA eschatology. "Sabbath" rests on that, on that fear of "what's coming" and being the insurance-ticket to getting through it. There are many Adventists who will say that they keep Sabbath to make God happy, but I believe it's not the same as when a Jew or a Sunday-keeping Christian "keeps Sabbath". For those it's a matter of law, but for Adventism it's that and something much more -- it's also a matter of being pleasing enough to be saved in the end. In Adventism, subconsciously or consciously, "living up to the light received" has a very deadly weight attached to it. To be sure, when a Jew or a Sunday-keeping Christian "keeps Sabbath", they may do it to please God, and they may even do it legalistically as the Pharisees did in the New Testament. Their error is based on legalism, on the law. They want to please God and don't know that they don't have to, that Jesus is the pleasing one to God, and in Him we are pleasing to Him because He is pleasing! Adventism's Sabbath includes this error, but has a subtle string-puller beneath it --the IJ. Deep down there is a strong motivation, a memory of some fear that had been taught, passed on, which said that this is what needs to be done to be saved in the end. On a personal note, I think this is why I was able to leave Adventism so easily. At my friend H.'s home, the first thing He uprooted in me was the Adventist Sabbath! Thank You, JESUS, thank You! I thank Him that my friend faithfully served Him, spoke HIM and testified to HIM, and He knocked "Sabbath" right out of the way at the get-go! ***** I wrote these things because I just had to share them with two friends. I didn't know exactly what to "do" with this... I thought I might write an article about it as He leads (>_<) ...but will be seeking His face no matter what. What struck me most is that every sacrifice and ceremony (and major event) in the Old Testament was a picture of Jesus, a "shadow" of Him. And I suddenly felt His heart say to my spirit, "The Adventist Sabbath is not a shadow of Me!" The reason for this is because of its IJ roots. I was (and am as I write this again) in shock and tears from my spirit because I realize that I was never taught the Sabbath! As I was doing the dishes about a week later, I asked God for a picture of this, and He gave me one. But I've been hesitant about putting it online because I have Adventist friends, and I know that for them "Sabbath" isn't always as I've depicted it. But it is "the Adventist Sabbath". It's a picture of leaving His true rest for a shadow, for dryness, for desolation, and the effect that this has on a soul: (link to picture, "The Adventist Sabbath") - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KV00PuhGH98/Sa_xONOpNTI/AAAAAAAACuc/taemi_ZWTu8/s1600-h/n402+The+Adventist+Sabbath.JPG Please pray for me as I pray about how to put this up online in a loving and direct way. (Thanks!) Bless you in Jesus Christ! In Sabbath-rest IN HIM! Ramone P.S. If you know of some good EGW quotes that show the link between the Sabbath and Investigative Judgment, please share them with me. Specifically I'm looking for one or two quotes of keeping Sabbath because it's important for the IJ. And/or that illustrates how they adopted the "Sabbath" as the sort of "missing piece of the puzzle" in their Sanctuary/IJ scenario. I've read such things before, but don't remember where. Anyway, thanks for any help you can give! Especially for prayers! | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 756 Registered: 11-2007  |
Interesting connection I had not thought of before. If someone can leave Adventism from uprooting the sda Sabbath, I think that would make it so much easier. So often, that's the last hurdle and prevents people from finding other Christian fellowship for a long time - often years, sometimes never - just as you said. Just wanted to say it again. =) I also totally agree that while egw called the IJ the pillar, it truly is the Sabbath in practice. I'd say very few sda's even can explain the IJ at all, so they don't run to that, it's always the Sabbath. It's what they "trust" and gives them security in their standing before God. The IJ is all about fear and not knowing where you stand, so obviously you'd want something tangible. It makes sense. Good points! Sondra | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1738 Registered: 10-2002 |
Thanks Sondra. One big part of all of this realization & discussion was a desire and prayer to God, a desire to know how to pray and talk to Adventists for the sake of their freedom in Him. As fascinating as the connection is, I believe He was and is uncovering the "roots" of Adventism so that we can pray and intercede -- both in prayer and in deed. The two "roots" I've had uncovered before the eyes of my heart have both been fear -- the fear of being lost in the end. As I put this post up above, I thought of how that was actually the main thrust of the Millerites' message, wasn't it? "Come out and meet Him! (because if you don't, you won't be saved)". There are undoubtably several spiritual "roots" in the problems of Adventism, but the two I've seen so far are fear. And pride, too. The doctrines themselves, so to speak, are not actually the roots. The doctrines were constructed because of the roots. The doctrines are the trees that sprang up out of those seeds. Or to put it another way, the doctrines are the theological "fortresses" that were set up to protect those roots. Spiritually, however, the roots are the actual "strongholds". That is why freedom doesn't always come when studying doctrines. It's hit or miss with that most of the time. When the Holy Spirit is working on someone and it hits the right spot, it works. But if the Spirit is not already grooming that spot, it hits a brick wall almost literally. What I'm praying for with this is greater understanding and sensitivity to His leading... so that I can not get too distracted by the "points" of the doctrines. I don't want to argue for the sake of "truth" but for the sake of the person who needs the truth. Does that make sense? Someone once said, "Don't teach the Bible, teach your students!" I get distracted that way a lot, and easily get concerned with the points of truth & falsehood more than with how the listener understands or what the listener truly needs. I want to listen to God's Spirit, God's heart, telling me of what the person needs. I want to have His patience, because just like I wasn't rushed out of Adventism, neither will most people be if I perfectly present all the truths & falsehoods in their faces. And in talking to Adventists, I want to have the patience (and trust in God) to not follow every rabbit-trail of incorrectness that presents itself, you know? It can easily go off into countless tangents. There are so many problems and assumptions that are wrong in Adventism. I am asking for sensitivity in the Spirit to know which "trails" to take and which ones to let go for the time being (entrusting them to God to deal with in His time and in His way). I want to ask Him to help me see the root, the spiritual stronghold that is behind all the arguments an Adventist makes when talking with me. Kind of like my friend did when I asked about the Sabbath nine years ago. She simply said that if we are saved by our good work of keeping Sabbath in the end, then we're saved by works and not by faith. That snapped me awake. Of course, I realize my friend may not have consciously been asking God if this was a good "trail" to take or not. But I want to remember to ask God as often as I can and seek His guidance and heart about it. But anyway, yes, I want to see the "root" strongholds that are keeping whoever I'm talking to bound to Adventism. The existence of these roots and their function are like the rudders of a ship: they guide the boat of their doctrines/arguments. You know how sometimes you'll make a point to someone, and they'll just suddenly bounce back with something completely different, sometimes new, often very creative, actually. A Biblical truth is pointed out to them, and they find another way around it, often a brand new way to go around it. The reason for this is that there is a spiritual root underneath. The doctrine itself isn't the root. The spiritual root is the stronghold, not the doctrine itself. Something like fear or pride is the engine of the boat, so to speak. Okay, I need to go to bed! Bless you all in Jesus! Ramone | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6581 Registered: 3-2004  |
Ramone, I do agree that even though EGW said the IJ is the pillar of adventism, in reality it is the Sabbath. I would guess in the IJ, if one does not "keep" the sabbath one will not be written in God's Book of Life, according to adventism. Love your painting. The person looks lost and about to cry as he wanders away from the flock instead of towards it. Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9492 Registered: 12-2003  |
Ramone, really good insights. I believe you're right. Actually, Brian Cain's faith story here http://lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2008/2/faithstorya.html supports what you said. He tells of thinking he didn't believe EGW but discovering that his belief that Jesus and therefore humans could keep all the law was based in his worldview of The Great Controversy. The point of the great controversy involves keeping the law so God can be proven just. The IJ historically is how people are supposed to be shown to be honoring the law, and in the modern "version" which says the IJ is about proving God is just, people's Sabbath-keeping is still part of the package that proves God is just in requiring the law. The entire package is inextricably intertwined. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4303 Registered: 9-2006  |
Ramone, I don’t mean this in a negative way, but I don’t quite understand this coming at this late date. I saw it way back and I am not even Adventist. You are correct the IJ is the root part and the Sabbath the functional part. Or to put it another way, the IJ is the mountain and the Sabbath is the lever that lifts the mountain. Or yet another way to put it might be, the IJ is the gun, but the Sabbath is the trigger mechanism. A gun without a trigger mechanism is still a gun, but ineffective. The IJ is the gun of pride, and fear is the hammer and the Sabbath pulls the trigger which results in injury or death While it is true there are many evangelicals that keep the “Sunday Sabbath” and don’t know they don’t have too, the difference is that it is kept in faith in Christ by most, or in other words is kept in faith in Jesus death, burial and resurrection which is the Christian capstone, the lever that moves them is the still the cross of Christ. I had a conversation with my brother who was out here visiting for a week and he said something about the Sabbath (Sunday of course) and I immediately challenged him on that. Now you won’t find many more devoted Christians than him, he won’t have a T.V in the house and he and his wife drop on their knee’s and pray three times a day, you can be there any time of the year and just as sure as the sun comes up this takes place. He and his wife study the Bible every single day. If he is on a trip and pulls over to rest out comes the Bible. Yet he thought that Sunday was the Sabbath. When I went over the Sabbath of our rest with him, it was a push over to explain to him, he just had not been taught. No argument what so ever, he got it and agreed right away. Yet you take and Adventist and as you said he flees there and hunkers up with his fingers in his ears and his eyes shut, or if you try to get him on the IJ he just flees to the Sabbath. The Sabbath, the Sabbath, you can’t explain the 24/7 rest because there is no rest in the Adventist Sabbath and he won’t know what you are talking about. So the IJ is the lie and the Adventist Sabbath is the cover-up. My question is, what does it help knowing this? You tell him the truth and he thinks you are attacking him and he flees to the non-existent Adventist Sabbath. While I agree is important to know the root and the branch of Adventism, I just don’t know what practical help it would be in speaking to them, because if you use the Sabbath as a mainline of tact he will flee too the IJ and if you use the IJ, he will flee to the Sabbath and hunker up and stay there. Now that is for talking to them, as for prayer that may be a different story, but I just don’t see how since the Holy Spirit understands all this a heap more than we do. The one thing I think is very weak in the people on the forum is to see that people have freedom to come to God or no. God won’t over ride any mans will and determination, he won’t force himself on anyone, he is a gentlman, he courts and woo’s us but he will not over ride anyone. People say “Oh, if its Gods will he will be saved, but it is his will that all come to the knowledge of Jesus and call on him. As the old song goes ‘if thou would be saved then why not tonight?” ‘Oh do not let the word depart, and close thine eyes against the light’ ‘Oh sinner harden not your heart, oh why not tonight’ I am convince there are thousands of Adventist that close their eyes against the light, its very frustrating, but we cannot force them and the Lord won’t. I said at the outset this is not meant in a negative way, give me something to use in ministering to Adventist and I’ll take it and use it. I do see the value in having a deep understanding of all this so the folk coming out of Adventism can see clearly what they need to get free from. Adventism is founded on a lie, wrapped up in nice in pride and tied neatly with the ribbon and bow of Adventist Sabbath and sold to the world on a platter of evangelical sounding jargon. Ya think your buying 12 ounce steak and your getting 2lbs of garbage, rotten garbage at that. River P.S. I sometimes sound rather rough on folks, but at least I know I won’t be stoned if I try to talk straight because the folk on here are not rebellious against the truth. I know your gift of mercy, but sometimes you can’t love your way around truth. | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 223 Registered: 1-2007  |
Before I knew the Bible, or more importantly before Jesus removed the veil for me, I actually believed all that. Serves me right for trusting in man's (woman's) doctrines and commandments, rather than studying the bible for myself. It amazes me, was I really that naive? The teachings are so unbiblical and fly right in the face of God's Word. Praise God for His grace and mercy. Paul | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4304 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thats why its called deception, if nobody was deceived there would be no deception. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9495 Registered: 12-2003 |
You make very good points, River. Romans 2:5-6: But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart, you are storing up for yourself wrath on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, when He will render to every man according to His deeds…" Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1739 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hiya Riverrio, That's pretty true. Sabbath is a lot simpler to "get" and seems a lot more biblical, correct, and overlooked. In turn the Sabbath then "validates" the process by which it was arrived at (1844, etc.). The Sabbath is so difficult to dislodge because it's not rooted in Scripture, but in the IJ. Pretty wild. I'm surprised to hear this from you, River, because I've discussed things of the Spirit with you before. You know that the arguments/logic/rationales are not themselves the roots or the primary battleground, but rather the spiritual is what wields the arguments & logic. If I looked at things primarily from a doctrinal or logical point of view, then I would agree with "What does it help to know this?", but I realize that what is under the surface is what controls what is on the surface, not the other way around. (Mind you, I still get caught up in "on the surface" battles from time to time!) Are "prayer" and "talking to them" always so separate? Must they be so divorced? Yes, the Holy Spirit understands, but isn't it our desire to be more in tune and in communication with the Holy Spirit? Wouldn't that be clearly beneficial to everyone involved -- to them for the sake of hearing Him more clearly (instead of hearing us), and to us for the sake of not being so frustrated bloodying our head against a brick wall? It's not like we just do a "quick prayer" and then go off in logic, you know. I think that's why we can get frustrated at times (at least I know I do!), because we don't take God in to the conversation with us. If we're diligent, we throw up a quick prayer before we start (but more often we might pray well afterwards). In fact, not just "take God into" the conversation, but rather follow God into the conversation (if He's leading there!). Because often I think we let them set the terms of the conversation! Or we let the logic, arguments & doctrines themselves direct our actions, reactions, comments and responses. One evangelical teacher said about spiritual warfare that "We must follow our Captain, not our foe!" But often what I think we do is follow logic, follow the arguments about doctrine (in other words, we argue in the flesh instead of by the power of the Spirit). So we spin off on tangents, get frustrated, hit our heads against walls, etc. What I want to do is be a "smart bomb" for the Holy Spirit to guide, you know? Not just a cluster bomb dropped randomly from the air. Sometimes cluster-bombing hits what was targeted, but it's not pinpointed. I want to ask the Spirit to use us in a pinpointed way as much as possible. We can't always know this or see it, of course, but darnit, we ought to aim for it, you know! At the beginning of this, however, we'll need to seek His heart for the person. Not merely react to whatever offense they've spoken against the truth. Sometimes I think He'll have us enter conversation with them, and other times He'll have us hold back. That can be really frustrating to my flesh! It will mean above all laying down our concern with "proving a point", and desiring the person's salvation more than we desire acknowledgement of the correct truth. Amen! Bless you in Jesus, bro! Ramone | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4307 Registered: 9-2006 |
quote: I'm surprised to hear this from you, River, because I've discussed things of the Spirit with you before. You know that the arguments/logic/rationales are not themselves the roots or the primary battleground, but rather the spiritual is what wields the arguments & logic. I yield to being an idiot Ramone. What was I thinking when I said that? Without dealing with the Spiritual first we are dead in the water anyhow. The deceit is a spiritual one and not a matter of logic. It is talking and communicating with the Holy Spirit first and foremost AS we go. Thanks for reminding me Ramone, your a good brother to have. Prayer and talking to them should never be a separate thing. I am going to spend some time in prayer before I meet with them this morning. Accept that the Spirit draw a man he cannot be saved. River | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 147 Registered: 10-2008 |
Ramone, What has struck me in this dialogue/thread is the reference to the "roots". This somehow resonates with me . . . I have asked the Lord to pull the heresy I have learned, ingested and accepted out by its roots . . . But as you are alluding too, there are layers and many times the "core" or "roots" is pride, fear, and one I'm just becoming aware of is judgementalism or a critical spirit . . . Thanks for your insights and post, Keri | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1741 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hey, River, I'm an idiot with you, don't worry! Like I said, I get caught up in doing battle "on the surface" so to speak, and sometimes have to be slapped awake (by God usually!). See my second post above where I replied to Sondra for more of this stuff. Keri, thanks! You know, I'm realizing more and more that the "roots" are not usually very complicated things, but are very basic yet very deep. They cloak themselves in all sorts of shapes and excuses, but they're still what they are. It takes a bit of HolySpirit-exposure to unmask them, however, and that can often take time. Sometimes with spiritual-warfare-minded friends, they tend to look for the "name" of whatever spirit and they stop short there. "A spirit of this" or a "cultic" spirit, a "demonic spirit", etc. But what's more important than the name of the spirit is the foothold it is standing on in our souls. Does that make sense? Because that is the open door, that is the place we give it to stand. That is the room we give it to lodge in. That's why at the root of all the Adventist problems are simply things that anyone can have. The certain combination of them is uniquely Adventist, but the basic problems themselves---the stubbornness, cultic closed-ness, cognitive dissonance, legalism, etc.---these are things you can find among regular Christians as well in more singular measures (not usually all together like in SDA). The nature of the spirit and the foothold are the most important things. (The nature meaning the essence of it, the heart of it -- not the ontological, objective description of its substance, etc.). And then, even knowing this, it is not enough that we "recognize" it or give it a name. Often we give something a name and feel that we have then transcended it and have "passed" it (or are "past" it). But more important is that the Holy Spirit really takes us to the root (more than someone else pointing it out to us) and then leads us into deliverance and seeing that we are free because of the blood of Jesus Christ, and we are free in Christ. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 148 Registered: 10-2008 |
Freedom . . . Ah, yes, Ramone . . . I know at this stage of my journey I can become discouraged with all the "muck" of what has been and what has taken a foothold . . . I need to remember that "He who has begun a good work, will be faithful to complete it". . . . So, what do you mean by the Holy Spirit taking us to the root and leading us into deliverance . . . what does that look like for you? Keri | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 759 Registered: 11-2007 |
Very much in agreement with the "root" theory here. Let's take it one step deeper. That root often gets started independent of the religion, and many people get drawn to cults because they are already operating from a paradigm of fear and pride. It can work both ways, but I see in many cases, the root comes first.. then the cult beliefs. In a recent discussion with an sda I know who is hurting terribly, there is emotional healing that needs to happen before this person can ever even begin to process theology. This healing happened for my husband and I and I think was a huge factor in us being able to see God as He really was, not how our past pain defined Him in our minds. I know God can start to heal from either angle, so I guess we need to be sensitive to His Spirit when dealing with individuals and ask God to lead which way we can be used. In the above case I felt it was very important for me to share my emotional healing journey independent of theology for the time being, although one did lead into the other.. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9502 Registered: 12-2003 |
Such great insights. Yes, Ramone--the root is the problem. You're so right about the "name it and cast it out" approach to spirits doesn't work because it refuses to look at the foothold. So true. Repentance is the heart of being able to be free of these attachments. I realize that I even have to repent of my fear of offending/desire to please that has often kept me from speaking the truth when I should have spoken. This subject is on my mind because we just read the mail(!). We are often accused of hate, bitterness, critical spirit, and not being able just to "move on"! But as the atheist Penn Gillette (sp?) has said in a video clip, if you really believe someone is going to go to hell, how could you hate them so much you don't tell them? Yes. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1774 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Keri (Jrt), Sorry I didn't reply to this sooner! I had written: I think what I mean is the Holy Spirit really, personally showing it to you... you know? Does that make sense? It's hard to describe. I can feel it more than I can articulate it. Often people say that your problem is this or that. Or a pastor gives a sermon, and because he or she is preaching and is "the pastor", you think it automatically applies to you and that you must be "convicted" by it. In fact, there is a whole churched mentality that will actually feel like something is wrong if a pastor's sermon doesn't result in feeling "convicted"! Someone talks about a problem, or a pastor talks about a problem, or you read a book about a problem... and because of that, you start to worry and think, "Maybe that's me!" (or in church you actually feel like that's what you're supposed to feel). And the truth is that the things you hear or read are not always what the Holy Spirit is speaking to you. You've got to seek Him and hear from Him yourself. Yes, He can point out stuff to you through others, but the main way He will speak to you is (1) His Spirit to your spirit and (2) through your spiritual family. And your "spiritual family" is not the large church you attend two hours a week and sit passively through. Spiritual family are people you pray with, talk with, share your heart with, have their hearts shared with you, and seek God together with. What does it look like for me? Good question! I can't really think of an immediate way to summarize that, because really there isn't a pattern or regular way it happens, I think. I can look back at a few key issues that He helped me through... ***** In the first case (which was probably the most formational personal "deliverance" for me), it was through a prophet giving a word to me that God wanted to heal my relationship with a family member -- who at that time I felt numb towards and couldn't care less about reconciling with. That person spoke that to me and God convicted me it was right. The person gave some guidance here and there, about choosing to forgive and walk in steps of agape love (instead of waiting for the feeling). As we prayed together (with other friends present as well), I spent a lot of time in the center of the floor (we all sat on the floor in the living room) being prayed for, pouring out my heart, pouring out my tears and wounds. God would uncover one wound after another. Sometimes it was through a word, but often it was through an impression or sudden thought I had, or occasionally through a picture I suddenly saw while praying. In each case, when a wound was uncovered, my friend helped me go through the steps of healing -- choosing to forgive, repenting for my own judgment & revenging, and then putting it all under the blood of Jesus... leaving it with Him, seeing that He has taken it all in Himself, and I am healed in Him. After the foothold was exposed and the blood of Jesus applied to it (through choosing forgiveness, repentance & asking for His love, will & blessing for the offender), I would repent of harboring any spirits that had been exposed (e.g., fear, pride, rejection, etc.) and bind them in Jesus' name, and loose whatever He identified as needing to be loosed. That's the way some of my foundational or formational healing happened. But since then it hasn't always happened that way. Often it happens while I'm alone, or while I'm praying, or after He brings up something during the day. Sometimes through a seemingly random incident, other times in other ways. But in a sense, the process of choosing to forgive & repent, and choosing to believe God's word (that it is taken care of in the blood of Jesus) and proclaim it over myself and my situation -- I think that is a constant, that is a sort of "standard" in most of my deliverance experiences. In a nutshell, it means God exposes the bad spirit & foothold, and I choose His way instead (forgiveness & repentance), bind the bad spirit(s) and proclaim His truth. ***** Hmm, that is all more than I meant when I originally wrote my comment! I was mainly thinking of the fact that it just needs to be personal, that the Holy Spirit needs to show you, not someone else's "this is important" word. But... you asked! So I gave an example! It doesn't always happen that way, but that kind of "set the tone" for a lot of things that came later on. And it has been a blessing. God has been blessing me, and I am so thankful because He taught me a lot through that formational deliverance I had. He's used what I learned then to help me learn how to forgive, repent & be free of stuff He showed me later on. And He's used it to help several other people find freedom in Christ when we were praying together. Okay, I hope that answers your question, hehe. Bless you in Jesus! Ramone | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1897 Registered: 10-2002 |
I put up the picture about "the Adventist Sabbath" on these two blogs: 1- http://formeradventistjapan.blogspot.com/2009/05/adventist-sabbath.html 2 - http://art-for-jesus.blogspot.com/2009/05/adventist-sabbath.html It's not a complete or really detailed explanation, but I worry that if I wait any longer, I'll forget it. So here it is. Lord, please use it to help someone come into Your rest! In Jesus' name, amen. In His love, Ramone |
