| Author |
Message |
Surfy
Registered user
Username: Surfy
Post Number: 520
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 8:50 am: |     |
Many of you know my mother died last Christmas. A relative of ours just found out yesterday and called to wish me sympathy. He is a lifelong and pretty hard core adventist.
He said, "At least she is in a better place now."
I hear this a lot from adventists when someone has passed away. What gives? Do they really believe that when someone is decomposing in a grave somewhere that is a better place? Or is it that they know, down deep somewhere, or really hope that their loved ones are "resting with the Lord"? And I hear that a lot, too. "So and so went home to be with the Lord."
My mom and dad were "good" adventists. I had RESTING WITH THE LORD engraved on their headstone. I guess I could have had them engrave ROTTING HERE UNTIL JESUS COMES but just couldn't do it.
I am not so much argueing about their belief in "soul sleep" (we have done that a lot) as I am making the comment that by their words and actions....they really don't believe it themselves.
Surfy |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 4592
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 10:13 am: | |
Surfy,
I think people say that many times, because they don't know what else to say and they feel that they need to say something.
I think he was just being nice to you, why take it further than that? Adventist can be just as nice and sympathetic as anyone else.
And if you had put that on your mothers grave you would have ended up buying two tomb stones.
I'm not reprimanding you brother, just reminding you gently.
River |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 1923
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 11:20 am: | |
For what it's worth 'In a better place' can be used to refer to the sleep of annihilation (as in 'put out of their misery') - at least in some people's minds. If a person has been in great pain, or in terrible circumstances some annihilationists might think that 'resting in the grave' is better. Not suggesting this is what people SHOULD think, but I have heard the idea advanced. |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 296
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 11:41 am: | |
Surfy, I think you're probably right, there is a dichotomy. River is also correct, in times like this most of us stumble around trying to think of SOMETHING to say. When my mother died a sweet lady commented that she was sorry I had lost my mother, it was hard not to laugh because I immediately had an image of my poor mother wandering about...lost, followed by the urge to say 'Oh! I didn't lose her, I know exactly where she is.'
In times like these I can be as trite as the best of them so I've learned to keep my mouth shut and make due with a hug.
John |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 997
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 11:42 am: | |
A couple years before we left the SDA church, I was surprised to hear two different people at our church (both considered conservative, older generation pillars of the church), express they believed in real soul sleep - that the spirit returned to God and rested in an unconscious state until the resurrection. So I guess it is possible some SDA's don't buy the complete SDA view on state of the dead. I thought the one was a lifelong SDA, but don't know about the other - either way both had been in the SDA church for several decades. |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 1925
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 11:56 am: | |
The idea that the (unconscious) spirit goes and sleeps, somehow, in God originated with Uriah Smith I believe. I can't remember the name of his book at the moment. He went to great lengths to explain how the resurrection body did not need to be of the same particles for it to be the same person since the essential 'us' that is put into the new body is from God's storage place and is not just a copy. |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 74
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 1:52 pm: | |
I have a couple of questions. If this is not the right thread let me know. We can start a new one, but since this one is talking about death, I'll ask.
- 1. There has always been a debate about the possibility of some one who commits suicide being saved or not. What does the Bile say?
- 2. Can anyone here guarantee to me that if a person commits suicide, that person will be saved? The answer is not affected by your believe on the intermediate state.
Thank you,
Hec |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 1518
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 2:08 pm: | |
Hec,
Salvation is all about being made alive spiritually and has nothing to do with how you arrive at your physical death in this life.
Remember, the blood of Christ covers.....what?
Who can separate you from the love of God?
Technically, to die to save another person is suicide. What does the Bible say about someone who does that?
What did Jesus say about his own death?
Fearless Phil |
Seekinglight
Registered user
Username: Seekinglight
Post Number: 94
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 2:24 pm: | |
Amen, Phil. I'm weary of Christians preaching that suicide is the "unpardonable sin". |
Freedom55
Registered user
Username: Freedom55
Post Number: 25
Registered: 3-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 2:51 pm: | |
Re: suicide, there is the biblical example of Samson who prayed to be allowed to die with the Philistines he was about to kill. He could be considered a suicide bomber for ancient Israel. And yet, notwithstanding his suicidal act, there is Samson listed in Hebrews 11:32 as one of the faithful. I haven't found one word of censure or condemnation for Samson.
People commit suicide for various reasons, but more often than not, it is because of serious depression - a form of temporary mental illness. How could a just God hold this against a person? I for one am a Christian who does not believe that suicide is an unpardonable sin, and concur with the previous posts by Phil & Seekinglight. |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 315
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 3:26 pm: | |
Hmmm....
Salvation is based on the Son. If I have the Son, I have eternal life - if I don't have the Son, I don't have eternal life; 1 John 5:11-12.
If someone who commits suicide accepted Jesus as their personal Savior - with believing faith - then according to my understanding - they are saved.
Behaviors neither save us nor do they lose our salvation.
I agree with Freedom55, seekinglight, and Phil.
Surfy . . . How are you doing with your mom's death? I guess I was unaware that it happened not long ago and so I am late with my concern for you and her death...Know that I care...
Keri |
Surfy
Registered user
Username: Surfy
Post Number: 521
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 10:01 pm: | |
Keri, I believe that my mom is really in a better place. She was normal (for her) and two weeks later she was gone. During that time, I was with her every day and we got to talk and share a lot of things. I spent more time with ther the last few weeks of her life than I did the previous ten.
Everyone please forgive my rant. I am not in a very happy place regarding adventists right now. I'll tell you all about it sometime.
The point is, they vow to believe and live the 27/28 points of doctrine but really don't. How many of the 27/28 do they have to break before they are no longer considered an adventist or kicked out of the church? And why would someone want to stay a member of a church when they don't even believe the theology or doctrines of that church?
Surfy |
Gcfrankie
Registered user
Username: Gcfrankie
Post Number: 396
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 7:57 am: | |
Surfy,
God tells us He knew us before we were in the womb so we belong to God. As I tell people that God loaned my parents to me (I did not own them) and have now been called back home to be with Him. Yes it is hard on those who are left behind and I miss them but I praise God for giving me the years I had with them. So, yes they are in a better place but not the way sda's mean it but that their spirit has returned to the almighty God the Father who is the life giver.
I have heard the same sayings from non-adventists also so I would not take too much stock in what is said as sometimes we have trouble expressing our sorrow to that person who has lost a loved one.
Hec,
So far as someone committing sucide I can not judge them as I do not know where their heart is. God knows that one! All I can do is be a comfort for those who have been left behind and those who have not succeeded. There is so much pain (physical & mental) and it seems to be getting worse everyday.
There are no guarantees in this world except in Jesus Christ and that we believe in Him and what He taught us and that there is a better world acomin' and it can not be too soon for my liking.
I could go on but I will stop for now.
Gail |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9704
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 8:00 pm: | |
Knowing that our salvation is based on our knowing Jesus and being spiritually reborn has removed my confusion over whether or not "deeds" render us saved or lost.
We trust God to preserve and keep safe in Him those He has saved. Our deeds do not save us, neither do they cause us to be lost.
Colleen |
Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 472
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 9:06 pm: | |
Hi Surfy~
When my dad passed away a couple of years ago, I remember the very first reaction my mom had when someone told her "... at least we'll see him in heaven." She lowered her head and replied, "we'll see." This was on a Friday, by the next day my mom was agreeing with people, telling them, "yes, we will see him in heaven." We had my dad's burial service on Monday. My cousins were driving me back to where my mom lives when my cousin said, "... being Adventists, even though we die, we have such a hope." My jaw nearly fell in my lap.... HOPE? My mom had no hope... I felt so bad for my mom because she was struggling, wondering if my dad would be in heaven. This is a man who loved God in a very real way and yet she didn't know whether he was saved.
I found it ironic that my cousin thought that Adventism gave "hope".
~vivian |
Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 473
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 9:07 pm: | |
... just reading over my post... sad to see she thought it was Adventism instead of Jesus that gives us hope.
~v |
