| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9667 Registered: 12-2003  |
And just BTW, a "dead spirit" is one which is not connected to God. It does exist. "Death" and "life" in a spiritual sense simply is referring to whether or not a person is trusting God, and in the new covenant context, "life" means that a person is literally (spiritually) in the presence of God, approaching Him directly and without barrier of sin or guilt. Jesus took those things and paid the price and satisfied the wrath of God. Therefore, we can approach the Father, and the Holy Spirit can indwell us, and we are hidden in Christ with God. This connection is what makes us alive. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 53 Registered: 3-2009 |
Asurprise says:
Does that mean that the baby's new spirit is produced by the parents' unregenerated body? Doesn't body produce body, and spirit produces spirit? Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9671 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hec, I don't think we can identify HOW or from WHERE our spirits come. What we DO know is that we are made in the image of God; God is spirit, and we are created spiritual beings in His image. When God formed Adam and breathed the breath of life into him, he a gave him a spirit that made his body of dust a living soul. We can't explain how we receive the image of God, but God made this transmission of the spirit something that is indigenous to humanity. And the Bible tells us that all are born by nature objects of wrath because of Adam's sin. Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 289 Registered: 10-2008 |
Ok, I don't have answers - just some musings and questions . . . I have been following this thread. And something just wasn't "sitting" well with me - though I couldn't identify what it was . . . Looking at Jeremy's post 2687 in this thread (sorry, someone is going to have to teach me how to link directly to a post) I question whether a "dead" or "alive" spirit can be equated with "sinful nature" and "sinless nature". Something in me says, "no". I don't have the time right now as I post this to read in depth the scripture texts that mention "sinful nature", but these were the chapters I found when searching; Romans 7 & 8, Gal. 5, and Col. 2. Let me see if I can explain: This Sunday the pastor mentioned that we can be made alive in Christ, but still have a sinful nature. He was speaking from Romans 6. He seemed to differentiate spirit from nature. Some people (they come from an SDA background) came with me to church and they asked insightful questions. . . The pastor said in the sermon - you have a "choice" not to sin - he emphasized it several times, "You can choose NOT to sin!". The discussion my friends and I had was along the following lines . . . So a fellow goes through the checkout and sees a pornography magazine - he is a "born-again". . . So since he is "born-again" he can now CHOOSE to not purchase the magazine - because he is alive in Christ. While if he was "dead" in his trespasses (dead spirit) he would default to the natural choice of purchasing it. The comment was given that a person NOT "born-again" (dead spirit) can also choose not to purchase the magazine. SOO, what does an "alive spirit" and a "dead spirit" have to do with sinful behaviors? Anything? I believe it does - but I don't know if I could articulate it. From Elizabeth Inrig's seminar at the FAF weekend it sounded like "spirit" refers to the essence of who a person is - the immaterial part (mind, heart, soul). Nature and spirit seem different to me. Spirit to me means: My spirit (the essence of who I am), now has open communication and opportunity for intimacy with God, but I still may struggle in my sinful nature. So, how does having an "alive" spirit affect my behavior and choices? I know that SDA's have a definite understanding about "sinful nature". And then they aren't really sure if Jesus had a "sinful nature" or not - at least they haven't made a definite determination - Do you see why I am posting this - because it does tie into "spirit". I know that I can say Jesus was born with an "alive" spirit. Could I also say He never had a "sinful" nature?. I'm not sure if I've been able to articulate this at all. Keri | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 290 Registered: 10-2008 |
One last post: I found this link on the web that seems deals with a "Sinless Nature in the believer?". http://shrevegrace.org/Sinless_Perfection.htm The website seems to indicate that nature and spirit are two different things. Keri | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 291 Registered: 10-2008 |
One last thought  Bottom line: Jesus has paid the price of sin for me! I am considered righteous in Him, because of that gift of grace on the cross. I am now living the resurrected life in Him! I am at peace with God and rest in Him! Bottom line - Thank you, Lord! And that is totally inadequate for the gift of grace! Keri | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 74 Registered: 3-2009 |
Haha, I would like to confess that my hubby and I were the ones concerned about Keri's pastor's sermon. I've had some time to process the matter, so let me add to what Keri has already accurately articulated... I feel uncomfortable with this idea that now that I'm in the Spirit, He will give me stronger willpower to say no to sinful actions. For some reason, that's how the pastor's comments came across to me. It's like before Christ, I had no choice but to be a slave to my addiction to sweets (let's keep it fairly innocuous!). After I accept Him, I have heightened willpower to say no to sweets & eventually the craving will go away! Hmmm... Now, if the pastor had said: 1. When you accept Christ as Savior you are attached to Him and attached to His body of fellow believers. 2. Over time, acceptance and love from Him through His body will begin to change your heart and break down your defenses of pride/shame as you keep submitting to the Holy Spirit's leading. 3. Over time, you will start to recognize the harmful things in your life that have filled the void that only He can fill. You will feel His love/acceptance in the midst of your shame. This begins the process of healing. 4. With reflection, confession, and patience--in connection with His body (other believers)-- you will grow, develop, and experience healing from the feelings that once enslaved you to your addiction (i.e., food, pornography, etc.). I believe this is the more Biblical model for looking at the "sin" problems that believers face. It is not a simple choice. It is a long process and has very little to do with having stronger willpower at the moment of choosing whether or not to engage in a behavior. I believe sin begins way before we have the opportunity to act on it. I believe the root sinful behavior is often longstanding pain/anger/etc that is blocking our dependence on Christ--making it difficult to admit our helplessness before Him, and not letting Him in to certain areas of our hearts to do His work of restoration. And the pastor did not touch these aspects. He seemed to focus mostly on overt actions--which, in my mind, are merely symptoms of the real problem. Thus, he pushed my "SDA sensitivity button". :D I don't want to leave out the possibility that God can work a miracle such that a deeply rooted addiction immediately leaves a believer at the moment of conversion. However, in my own experience and from what I see in the Bible, most of the time, it just doesn't work that way. And when people expect it to, they are disappointed and start to question if their faith is real. If any of these points are not Biblical, please comment. I'm open to feedback. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2693 Registered: 10-2004  |
Keri, Some of it is just a matter of semantics, I think. Some people equate our sinful flesh with our "sinful nature" (in fact, the NIV translates the literal word "flesh" as "sinful nature"--which really bugs me, btw!). Others (and I've probably been influenced by Pastor Mark Martins' teaching on this) teach that we no longer have a "sinful nature," although we still have the struggle between our sinful flesh and our new nature in Christ. This latter teaching has made more sense to me in light of the Biblical teaching about the human spirit. 2 Corinthians 5 says that we are a new creation, literally, a new species. We have a new nature. Our spirit has been brought to life. Here's where Romans 6 comes in. We have died to sin. It says that we are now dead to sin but alive to God. This means that your spirit, which used to be dead (to God) and alive to sin--is now dead to sin and alive to God. It says that we were slaves to sin (we had to obey it!), but now we have been freed from sin (it's not our master anymore). We are now slaves of righteousness. We now have the ability to "walk in the Spirit." Galatians 5 says: "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please." (Galatians 5:16-17 NASB.) So we still have sinful flesh to deal with, until we either die or our bodies are glorified at the rapture, whichever happens first! When we die and go to heaven, will we still be sinning? No, because we no longer have our sinful flesh. Our spirit has already been regenerated, and desires only what is good and holy. It's our flesh that desires sin. So I would say that our nature has been changed, but we still have sinful flesh (our body). Of course, other Christians disagree with that, and I may be wrong. But I do think the NIV translation of "sinful nature" takes away from being able to understand that the Greek word literally means "flesh" (our bodies). So I guess you could say that our bodies have a sinful "nature" to them, but our spirits no longer have a sinful "nature" to them. It's kind of hard to define, because the terms "sinful nature" and "sinless nature" are not even Biblical terms (in the original languages).
Definitely! This is one thing Christians do agree on. There is no way that He ever could have had a sinful nature--or sinful flesh! He is the Lamb without spot or blemish. He is the perfectly pure, holy, righteous, sinless God. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 13, 2009) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4554 Registered: 9-2006  |
Jeremy' I agree, it is no longer our 'nature' to sin as it was before we were 'Regenerated' 'saved' 'born again'. That is why when we do sin, or do things contrary to the Spirit this 'wars' against us and we are not comfortable with it. I also agree with seekinglight. I think both of you were saying the same thing pretty much. I do not believe we can be made alive in Christ and still have a sinful nature. As Jeremy says, we will still have the inclinations of this body until it dies or is glorified. Paul clearly speaks about this problem when he exclaims 'Oh wretched man that I am'. His message is very, very clear about our condition in this body. I believe there are Christians who do not make it a practice of walking in the Spirit and they do not reap the benefits of that. As to being able too 'choose' not to sin, I believe Paul was clear there too when he said that the things he wanted to do he didn't do. Therefore it is umbilical to say that we can always choose not too sin, although we love right. River | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 91 Registered: 9-2006 |
River, did you mean to say "unbiblical" in your last line, "Therefore it is umbilical to say that we can always choose not too sin, although we love right."? Or is this using the metaphor of the new birth? | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 292 Registered: 10-2008 |
I just re-listened to the pastor's sermon. I brought the audio home with me - He spoke of Rom. 6:6 which says;
He referred to the old self in the Greek as literally speaking of the "old man" - and he used the analogy of "anthropology" - literally "man" or "human" has been crucified with Christ...I looked up the Greek and that seems to be accurate according to how I'm reading it... The cross-references are the following:
Again, this uses the same Greek word meaning "man" translated "old self".
Lastly, This "sinful nature" uses the Greek word for flesh - as you mention Jeremy. Rom. 6:6; Eph. 4:22; Col. 3:9 - all use the greek word for old self - or old "man". Then Gal. uses a different word and translated sinful nature or flesh. Anyways, I do believe you are right Jeremy in the sense that it is a bit of a matter of semantics. The pastor was saying that when we accept Christ - literally the "old self" or "man" dies and a "new self" is reborn in Christ. Then the pastor seemed to emphasize that we are no longer "slaves" to the old master of sin - but slaves to Christ. As reborn people we now have freedom in Christ to respond differently. The pastor used the imagery of a horse without a bridle - is free to be - rather than controlled by a bridle to go a certain direction. Absolutely, a non-Christian can also choose a different response than a certain sin (such as eating sweets - as seekinglight used) - but they are still slaves to the master - sin. And the sin they easily resist may not be their particular "bent" in sin. A born-again Christian is no longer a slave to the old master "sin" - period. They now the freedom, through the Spirit's work in their life, for a new way of responding. Though they may still slip and fall, because of the war that happens between the "new" self and this "something" i.e.'flesh' - but they are changing internally by the work of the Holy Spirit and they are no longer a slave to "sin". I may have just made this really muddy - so feel free to reinterpret and pull apart. I'm also sorting it out in my mind - just like "seekinglight". Hmmm - I agree with both of you - Jeremy and Seekinglight. I do think as Adventists that have been so focused on the law or "right" living that we are hypersensitive to anything that 'smacks' of "right" behavior. Yet, something does happen as new creatures in Christ. We are being changed from the inside out as a work of the Holy Spirit - and sometimes this takes time and community with other believers. But something does happen immediately when we accept Jesus - we are made "new" - reborn and have immediate "eternal life". I may ask the pastor again what he was referring to. . . and he does need to know how his choice of words comes across. . . Keri | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9674 Registered: 12-2003 |
I have also seen the definitions of "sinful nature" and no longer being slaves to sin the way Jeremy explained them--although I also find that I can't quite explain the whole thing totally clearly. In a nutshell, here's how I've understood this issue. The alive or dead spirit (connected to God by being born of the Spirit or disconnected, as are all natural humans) is what determines whether or not we are slaves to a sinful nature. We still have "sinful flesh"—and this reality—that we have habits, inherited weaknesses, chemical predispositions to certain addictions, electro-chemical reactions to early trauma, etc—is part of our "flesh". These physical realities make us very vulnerable to sin. Before we are born again, we have no real power over our tendencies to sin and over external temptations. We have spirits that are dead in sin, and we have no real power or position to keep us from sinning. When we are born again, we are given the literal resurrection life of Jesus in our mortal flesh. This living spirit does not negate our fleshly weaknesses and habits, but it does connect us to God. This transformation makes us alive, and it gives us—for the first time—the ability to submit our temptations to the Lord Jesus. It gives us the ability to pray before acting, to surrender out natural impulses and desires to God and to ask Him to anchor us in truth and reality, to see as He sees and know as He knows. For the first time we actually have the ability to make real choices when tempted--we actually have the ability to surrender the temptation to God instead of fighting with it. We can give up our rights to whatever we're tempted with and allow the Lord Jesus to come into that moment and give us Himself and internal peace instead of self-indulgence. The reason we are no longer salves to sin is that we literally have God and the life of Jesus in us. Our real enslavement to sin comes not from our bad deeds but from our being spiritually dead. Romans 5:13-14 says, "for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is not law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam..." So sin reigned in all humanity, even before the law, because of Adam. God didn't impute "sins" to people before there was a knowledge of what sins actually were, but sin was in the world and death reigned even before people knew what sins were. We are saved IN our sins...and God cleans us up after we are born again. We finally have eternal life and God's presence, and we have new power and position. We are no longer "in Adam" but are "in Christ", and we literally have the imputed righteousness of Jesus. We have the power of God in us. We are new, even though our flesh is still "old" and sinful. There's an article in Proclamation on being "In Adam or In Christ" on page 11 here: http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2006_JulAug.pdf Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4557 Registered: 9-2006 |
Martin, I meant to say 'unBiblical'. If we have the ability to choose not to sin, ever, then we could have perfection in this body. Now maybe some one else can do this, I am not accusing anyone of sin, I just haven't been able too. Paul said he hadn't been able too unless I misunderstood him, the Adventist go on this supposition the best I understand. maybe we can have perfection in this flesh and it IS possible, I doubt it. However sin can no longer rule over us, this does not mean that we are always without sin, it just means that our Spirits are alive to Christ and no longer in subjection to it. As you see, it is hard to articulate this condition, Paul does articulate it very well. Colleen did a better job of explaining it than I did. Perhaps Keri's pastor didn't articulate it very well. I just think its wrong to go comparing ourselves with one another. While one may have greater ability to resist, another may have lessor. I'm like Kari, words like that just set me off. If my pastor made the statement it would have stirred my gravy a little bit too. I think I'll just quit trying to negotiate an explanation before I screw it up completely River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1866 Registered: 10-2002  |
Without getting into all the references at the moment (I'm in the middle of cleaning and then going out for PORK ramen, ha!)... One thing that I think helps in sorting this out is to look at it parallel to the struggle to come out of an addiction. Yes, you've been made new in your spirit, and you are safe in Christ. But old habits are hard to break. You've been slave to something for many years, and there is still a strong connection to it. For whatever reason, that thing you were addicted to was a kind of place of comfort for you. (And there are a lot of other things that advertise themselves to you as 'comforts', trying to pull you to new bondages afresh). Somewhat mysteriously (I haven't worked this all out yet or understood), I think this is something mostly in our souls rather than our physical "flesh" per say. Of course, I can say that because I take the three-part being reading of Scripture (spirit, soul and body, rather than spirit & soul being the same thing), and don't find anywhere where spirit and soul are explicitly equated (rather, I find that they're explicitly distinguished from one another in some clear cases). What I'm saying in that is that our physical bodies are often not at fault. What needs re-education and setting-free is usually our hearts. It is our hearts that have been set on other things for many, many years. And these need to be re-set on "things above". Now that enters another ambiguous term into the mix -- the heart! But let's say that our spirit is our heart of hearts, then, the deepest "us" that there is. In this place we have been made new. Yet the outer part of us that is still being made new -- still being sanctified -- needs re-training, purifying, and plain learning and growing. While I haven't studied this intensively, I do suspect that Paul's usage of "flesh" is referring to that part of our souls that is still being sanctified, rather than specifically our physical flesh. Those who have spent time in the school of the Spirit and heard of "prophesying in the flesh" can kind of grasp at what I'm saying here -- because when prophesying "in the flesh", it is something being done out of natural means, out of natural soul instead of out of the Holy Spirit. Anyway, I'm just sharing this without any support at the moment, so I know someone might shoot it down here, and I won't fight back about it. Bless you in Jesus! In His love above all, Ramone | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 75 Registered: 3-2009 |
River:
These are my thoughts exactly. Also, when we get mixed up in behavior as the definition of sin, we see that anyone, born again or not, has a choice at any given time not to overtly sin. Even people who don't believe in God can exert willpower from time to time. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4558 Registered: 9-2006 |
I just can't leave this alone. Using the words "You can choose not to sin" invites comparing one with another. I Envision 60 people sitting there when these words are spoken. Each have come before the Lord for worship, for teaching and for help from on high. This places condemnation and burden on them,"You could have, but you didn't, therefore I am a better Christian than you are." So instead of getting spiritual help the guy goes home feeling like he's just been crapped on. I don't think it has a whole lot to do with the definitions. I went to a church where there were few, and if anybody did come there they wouldn't stay and I heard this: "The reason they don't stay is because they refuse to give up sin." I thought, 'No, the reason they won't stay is because you won't reach out to them' I left and never looked back. Now I am going to go into my analytic mode. The reason that this statement got Keri all hung up was that Keri was very sensitive to the Spirit, he had plowed her ground. You don't plow your garden then go stomping on it. Is that about it Keri, or am I out of line? The pastor probably knew what he meant theologically, but didn't realize that someone was there who had just freshly got her ground plowed. Now I got out what I wanted to say in the first place and I'm good. I can set over here and be happy. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9680 Registered: 12-2003 |
I also have trouble with "you can choose not to sin". For me it comes down to this: when I'm born again, I can choose to submit. Paul said that no temptation would be given us without a means of escape. That means of escape, for me, is just not "will power" or choosing not to sin. It's always submitting the moment and my heart to the Lord Jesus. Only then can I hope to honor Him. My struggle moves from fighting with temptation to dealing with the Lord Jesus, letting Him be God, giving up my rights for His purpose in my life. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6782 Registered: 3-2004  |
A very practical application to me is my eating disorder. When I want to eat something that is calling my name, and sugar calls me by name, I tell God, I cannot fight this. You have to fight it. You beat this at the cross. I have to submit this to God and He takes care and control of it. Every so often I take back the control and guess what, I fail!!! Diana L | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 301 Registered: 10-2008 |
River, I wish I could say that I was sensitive to what the pastor said this past Sunday . . . in all honesty - I didn't hear the complete sermon, because I had to go back behind the stage to line up and do the "card board" testimony I was involved in. The pastor did preach a sermon several weeks ago that rankled me to NO end. He said several times with vigor in his sermon - Stop sinning, just stop it! It bothered me so bad I talked to 3 people - and the pastor himself. He was gracious and really wanted to know what had bothered me. He knows my background. Esther helped me sort through it. This one bothered me, because I didn't know how to answer Seekinglights' hubbies question - and I hadn't heard the whole sermon. Also, those two, seekinglight and hubby, are very dear to my heart and I wanted a good answer for them - which I didn't have. And I haven't really known how to "understand" how an "alive" spirit affects behavior in the life of a believer. So I really wanted to know the answer too . Also, I think I'm wrestling with the concept of "spirit" - being alive or dead. Not that I don't believe we have a spirit or that we are born with a "dead" spirit and made "alive" in Christ, etc. Just that I'm a visual type person and this word has never been in my vocabulary before - so I'm trying to structure it in my mind. And trying to visualize an "immaterial" type word. Also, scripture doesn't really use that language - dead spirit . . . alive spirit . . . at least that I'm aware of. Yet, according to how the texts are used - I do understand that it is implied strongly. The pastor used different words and so it is just trying to put it into a new structure in my mind. Anyways, . . . Keri P.S. I like this idea of submitting the temptation to the Lord. . . my thinking is being completely rearranged. It is a good thing. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2696 Registered: 10-2004 |
Keri, Actually, Romans 8 does use that language, talking about our alive spirit:
Also, in John 3, Jesus says that it is our spirit that is brought to eternal life when we are born again:
As for imagining "what" our spirit is, Luke 24:37-39 kind of equates it with the concept of a ghost--an immaterial but definitely real and conscious "thing" nonetheless. For example, angels are spirits, according to the Bible, and don't have physical bodies. But they are definitely living beings. The spirits (ghosts) of dead men even appeared visually to people on a couple of occasions in the Bible (Samuel in 1 Samuel 28 and Moses in Matthew 17/Mark 9/Luke 9). So that gives us some idea of what human spirits are like. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 14, 2009) |
