| Author | Message | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 92 Registered: 9-2006 |
One question who's answer really seems beyond my grasp, is: When we are gifted by the Holy Spirit for the work he has prepared us to do, how does this relate to our natural abilities which we exercised before coversion? If the gift is something "unnatural", then how can we know it and identify it? I'm having trouble even asking this question, but from study and our discussions here, it is apparent that what gift He gives us is something either entirely new, or at least something we already do, only now in a Spirit-led way. We often hear stories of people going off tangentially in their lives to serve in some shockingly different capacity. They just didn't know they had it in them--because they didn't! Or like Phil said, God gifted them with something they didn't want to do. There are lengthy Christian self-inventories online where you can learn what your interests and strengths are. Somehow, they seem misguided. At this point, I still don't know what my gift from the Spirit is, although I admit, the evidence may be obvious and my dull senses should have picked up on it. If it is something related to what I already liked to do, then it doesn't "feel" like a gift. Perhaps the mystery exists only because I am looking for something new and strange, or at least a new ability that doesn't somehow fit my previous self-perceptions. There is comfort in what Ramone said, that the list of 9 items by Paul is probably not all inclusive. Please share your understandings, as I know there are others who also wonder about this. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9679 Registered: 12-2003  |
Martin, I've also struggled with this question. I actually believe that God's spiritual gifts to us sometimes are His empowering to do things that seem related to our talents but actually function for a completely different purpose than our talents would have accomplished. For example, I don't know whether or not I'm identifying a specific spiritual gift here, but I can say that I've watched you grow in your biblical knowledge and in simply knowing Jesus, and I've observed your developed interest in astronomy and philosophy become transformed into vehicles for expounding on the gifts and sovereignty of God in ways few people are able to do. In my mind, this transformation of your philosophical and scientific pursuits into spiritual understanding coupled with a gift for articulating your ideas clearly represents at least one gift of the Spirit with which God is equipping you. I've also seen God do similar things in my own life. I was a musician and an English teacher. Yet for several years as I contemplated going back to school and would pray to know what to do, I very repeatedly ad distinctly seemed to get the message that God was having me "chill"--and that He would now teach me. So I didn't pursue more graduate work in music or literature, etc. But God has unfolded His word in front of me, and I never imagined—ever—that I would become immersed in theology and ministry to former Adventists. The specific Bible knowledge that God has helped me to have is not my natural pursuit or gift. It has been something God has immersed me in almost in spite of myself. The writing and teaching were always areas of interest for me--but NEVER did I imagine a venue such as the ones God has brought me. Just my thoughts at this time...I may change some understandings as time goes on! Colleen | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 93 Registered: 9-2006 |
Yes, that is helpful, Colleen, I see what you mean. If God can make children of Abraham from stones, and he can make asses speak wisdom to fools, so he can shape and direct our natural abilities for his glory when we submit them. This is getting a little clearer now. So that is what happens to us. Previously, our minds and abilities were not submitted to him, so they were misdirected, or in my case, also very fragmented. Nothing seemed to work very well, and looking back on those efforts, it appears God wanted me to "chill" and know him first. Then came work and the ability to carry it out...and probably more chilling and knowing time is in store. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1509 Registered: 5-2007  |
Martin, Let me make one simple little observation. A gift of the Holy Spirit is like any other gift in one respect. It is something you didn't have before receiving the gift. Certainly, the Lord may use our talents and they may even be tied in some way with the application of a gift of the Holy Spirit, yet our abilities are separate from 'The Gift'. I pondered the same question in my own life for many years before the answer suddenly came to me. I have the ability to teach but that is not 'The Gift'. It is an acquired skill, at least in my case developed at the shipyard teaching my trade. In your case, I think it very probable that Colleen has identified the gift the Holy Spirit has given you. What she said corresponds to what I have 'seen' in your writings. Phil | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1870 Registered: 10-2002  |
Hi Martin, Echoing what Phil said, things received from the Spirit are given by grace -- from God. Building on that, I think I want to try and make a general distinction between the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" and between natural talents. Natural talents (knacks, etc.) are indeed God-given, however the "gifts of the Spirit" have a certain supernatural element to them that just doesn't quite fit "talent". The biblical list of nine spiritual gifts includes things like tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophesying and so on. I think perhaps one of the main differences between talents and Spiritual gifts is that Spiritual gifts are found in the Holy Spirit -- they are the gifts of the Holy Spirit, gifts that come because we have received the Holy Spirit. Generally then we don't usually have them before we have the Holy Spirit. (Generally!) And more obviously, they can usually be activated only by Him at His will (praying in tongues may be an exception here, but I won't get into that). Things such as prophecy and interpretation of tongues just don't come whenever you want. In the same way, a friend who had a sort of visual gift of discernment (seeing spirits & angels) could not choose when he wanted to see something. It was up to God. For another friend, one of his gifts was the interpretation of dreams (or of peoples' situations), but it wasn't something that he could just turn on whenever he wanted. In fact, when he began to trust thinking he would or should be able to interpret something, it just wouldn't come. He would have to surrender the dream or situation to God, and if it was God's will, in His time understanding would come. Talents are things that we have a larger measure of control over, a larger "ownership" of, I think. Talents can be honed and refined, whereas Spiritual gifts generally are more like conduits of the Holy Spirit's power/love, and can't usually be refined (our hearing of God, however, may need refining and does get refined the more and more we walk in Him and grow closer to Him). Talents are things you can often fall back onto, you know? Granted, your talents are also God-given, and at certain points you may not be able to fall back on them or control them. But by and large, you can. The Spiritual gifts, however, belong more to the Holy Spirit than they do to you. They are more His to control than your talents are. While we are to offer our talents to God, our Holy-Spirit Gifts are things that we can't usually offer back to God. (If we think we've got a good handle of them, then we're actually kidding ourselves and may be opening up to substituting, imitation spirits ["familiar" spirits]). There is likely some frequent crossover between talents and Spiritual gifts, because I know many people whose talents have been supernaturally enhanced or activated, so to speak. I think that's pretty hard to describe or get a handle on, so I'll illustrate with my own example of art, which I wrote about somewhat here: http://art-for-jesus.blogspot.com/2008/08/story-of-art-for-jesus.html I think that often the sort of "discover your spiritual gifts" courses or programs at churches are generally geared more towards talents than actual Spiritual gifts -- which involves listening to God much more and waiting on His Spirit. The sort of 'inventory checklists' which churches use to discern your "spiritual gifts" generally work from the outside in rather than from the inside out. What I mean is that they look more at natural abilities, God-given talents, what you can do, etc. In contrast, Paul spoke to Timothy telling him to fan into flame the gift of God which was in Timothy "through the laying on of [Paul's] hands" (2 Tim.1:6). We can fan the flame by seeking God, waiting on Him (active waiting, not passive waiting), submitting to Him, etc. There are ways to exercise Spiritual gifts, but these are usually different than the way we exercise our talents. (Again, there is likely some crossover at times, but I'm speaking in general terms). The point I'm making is that Paul spoke of a gift that Timothy had received when Paul laid hands on him (perhaps at the same time that prophecies were made about Timothy as mentioned in 1st Tim.1:18?). Okay, I'm wandering in my writing here, so I'd better not say anything more confusing. Blessings to you in Jesus! Ramone | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 529 Registered: 11-2005 |
I think it's also important to remember that when God works in us, although the way He brings it "out" may be somewhat "shocking" sometimes (especially if our expectations don't line up with His will), it will at the same time be natural because it's from God. For example, I know of several people who have an incredible gift of discernment. They are able to "see" into the spiritual realm more clearly than most. Yet, I KNOW that if I were to tell them that, they wouldn't believe it. It is so natural for them (because it is God given and they are fully surrendered to it), that it just flows from them. And there are others who have the spiritual gift of wisdom. Not knowledge, but wisdom. Yet, again, if I were to say to them, "Wow...God has gifted you with words of wisdom", I know they would have no idea what I was talking about. I don't know if that makes sense. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think many of us operate in the "spiritual gifts" without even realizing we are just because when God works in us it's so natural that it's organic. In fact, I think at times, "striving" for any gift God has given (whether it's a spiritual gift or even a gift like salvation!) actually "quenches" the work of the Spirit in us. Striving is very different from being "open". Striving is a work, whereas being open is an act of submission to His perfect purpose and will. Anyway, just my two cents at 1:10am! (Message edited by snowboardingmom on April 15, 2009) | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 530 Registered: 11-2005 |
Along that same thought of "quenching the Spirit", I think analyzing the "classifications" and "labels" of the different spiritual gifts can limit us. God gives each of us gifts to build up His church. When you think of it that way, knowing how to actually "categorize" those specific gifts is somewhat pointless in the big scheme of things. For me, I often tend to get so caught up in trying to figure out what God's purpose and plan is for me that all I can focus on is, "I want to know how I can serve You, Lord!" While that is good and noble, I'm discovering more and more that my purpose is much clearer when I say, "I want to honor You." I can't honor God when my wants, desires, insecurities, etc control my "desire to serve". Only when I fully submit myself to God am I even close to being able to honor Him. And it's only at that point of being able to honor HIm, can His "gifts" flow naturally through me. Grace | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4570 Registered: 9-2006  |
I want to break in with a big Amen for Ramone and Grace, kinda lump them both into the same Amen, enjoyed, soaked in and learned from what they wrote. I thought before last year that I sort of more or less had the Spiritual gifts down pat in a way, even though I have not been used in all of the supernatural gift listed in 1 Cor. 12:8-10 have have observed most of them in operation, so basically I thought I had this gifting, baptizing stuff all down pretty pat in at least an understandable way, that is before last year. It was about then that the Lord started doing something outside the box I had this all tucked neatly into. I am not free to tell about the one thing (Miracle) he did, but I am free to tell about the other. Just out of the blue, from simple conversation on this forum about a book and a little Gal who I believe lives over in Tennessee saying "Well write the book, I wrote the book." It ain,t tongues and interpretation and stuff like that, but I hadn't ever written more than long love letters to my girl friend who is now my wife. I wrote it all in a about four hours, just whack whack and it was done, a little polishing on the old spelling and English which was far more work to this old country boy than the writing of it. Well...me being on the logical side, having to use pure logic during the days when I had to write my own programs for the old puters we had, that kind of instilled in me the beauty of pure mathematical logic. It tends to do that when you keep trying to run a program on your own ideas and you keep getting the word ERROR. So I figures, well...It was a fluke, so I wrote another one, and I said "Well Lord, let the fleece be dry and the ground wet, and I wrote another one, then I said "Let the fleece be wet and the ground dry and I wrote another one. And then I said "See here Lord, that was to easy, so I said "Here is what I will do, I will write still another one that cannot resemble any of the others" So I did. Its not like going from zero to sixty, it is like being at zero and then going sixty with no numbers in between. Now you don't see it, now you do. I really don't know what to make of a sixty eight year old who one day wakes up being a creative writer. I majored in English all right, I majored in failure, if you want to learn how to fail English, look no further. Now you may say "Well, it wasn't all that good." But you can't look at it and say it looks like some would be writer neither. Where does this stuff come from? And what about the other thing the Lord did, which I ain't going to tell you about? Friends and goim's, God has tossed my logical world on it head, this ain't all he's done this past year, if I told you what is going on right now you would just think I'm lie, so I ain't going to tell you that neither. I used to think I knew a thing or two, but now, I am so amazed, I am beyond amazed and I ain't sure about nothing any more. You tell me. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9688 Registered: 12-2003 |
Grace, thank you. You are so right. I frankly find those "spiritual git inventories" to be pretty pointless except to help one identify his own "sweet spots" which may or may not have more to do with talents than with the power of the Holy Spirit. I SO agree that people often function within a gifting of the Spirit and have no real idea that they are doing so. In fact, I also agree that trying to identify and classify one's spiritual gifts may actually eclipse what God is doing. River, I understand what you're talking about. I do believe your writing is an example of God gifting you unexpectedly. And I further believe that one of His miracles is that, as He heals our hearts from deep scars that shaped our past, that spiritual and emotional healing often results in freeing up talents which may have been there but were repressed because of our emotions being shut down. Spiritual gifts as described in the Bible, I believe, really are supernatural gifts of God which we may or may not recognize we have. But I believe God also gifts us by means of bringing to light talents that are empowered by His wisdom and knowledge as we allow Him to heal our hearts. An example of what I mean is our older son Roy. He has a bright mind and quite a bit of natural linguistic talent, but until he accepted Jesus, he had a hard time concentrating and pursuing the tedium of thinking clearly and well to complete things like long essays, etc. He said one day, "When I accepted Jesus, my thinking cleared up. Before that, my thinking was really muddled." And he's right. When Roy accepted Jesus, his thinking noticeably cleared up. He had a lot of deep wounds from his early childhood, but God began dealing with him and healing his memories and emotions, and as this process progressed, his thinking and writing became more and more clear. Today, I look to Roy for biblical insight and understanding. He has become a powerful Bible teacher and a spiritually insightful writer. These results I classify as an example of "spiritual gifting"--but it's not in the "classic" sense. Yet I know of no other way to classify it. He wouldn't have developed these gifts apart from the supernatural work of God in his head and his heart. Colleen |
