| Author | Message | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 465 Registered: 2-2008 |
We visited family a week ago and had a discussion on various topics. There was one thing that was said that really struck me that day. I asked my husband's aunt if she believed her sins had been forgiven at the cross. She replied emphatically "YES!" ... but then a few minutes later she said her sins were being "atoned" for presently... NOW, at this time and not at the cross. I realized, that in her mind, she separated "being forgiven at the cross" and "atonement of her sins". How do you separate being "forgiven" and "atonement"? Isn't the very fact that you are forgiven make atonement between you and God? How can it be said that your sins are forgiven at the cross and then not have atonement? I DON'T GET IT!!! I know, I used to say the very same thing... "my sins were forgiven by Christ at the cross." I now realize that I was just saying those words and not really believing it in my heart because I was taught that my sins were being blotted presently. I just had never realized how "separated" forgiveness and atonement was to Adventists until now. "It is finished" ... such sweet words! ~vivian p.s. I will also be posting this as a note on FB... if you have the time, please comment over there as well. Thx! | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 264 Registered: 8-2008 |
It is really quite simple: If you believe in the Investigative Judgment, then you must believe your sins are still recorded somewhere standing in judgment against you, and that only by keeping the commandments will you convince Jesus to blot out your sins when He comes to your name in the IJ. Forgiveness in Adventism is only ever conditional and temporary, and if you sin again, all your conditionally forgiven sins can become unforgiven. Me, I'm glad that Jesus bore my sin, took it to the grave, and left it there forever. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1507 Registered: 5-2007  |
This reminds me of a phrase I heard somewhere: "Is forever longer than always?" For Adventist, our sins forever removed is not always gone. They just don't face the contridiction in their thinking process. Forever is, well, forever. Our sins are forever gone. Fearless Phil | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9682 Registered: 12-2003  |
Good observation, Vivian. Once again we bump into Adventism's problem with vocabulary. They totally play with words and definitions in order to hide, even from themselves, the despair of their non-Christian beliefs that they insist are "evangelical". Crazy-making. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 56 Registered: 3-2009 |
Talking about despair. Last night I had a very long conversation with one of my aunts. I have been explaining to her for several years now about how the SDA doctrines are not biblical. She is having a very hard time separating her understanding from the "hold" that the spirit of SDA has on her. Even though she is not a very active member. She doesn't even now if she has accepted Jesus as her personal savior even though she has been baptized and has answer "pulpit calls" many times. It's one of those problems that we, born into the church confront. We don't really have a day when we can say, this is the day that I was saved. Sometimes it's just a process since birth and one day we do it, but it's not a really big emotional thing that mark that day as it does for non-Christians. I told her that if she really want to be sure, just pray the conversion prayer consciously accepting Jesus as her personal savior. She say that she does not feel any thing. The only things that excite her are the hymns sang in church. I explain to her that she is not going to feel the joy of the Lord in the SDA church, because it is not there. All they talk is about how you need to do this or that, and not to do the other. That creates a feeling of depression, and all that trying to measure up is counterproductive to joy. There is a spirit of oppression there that won't allow her to feel the joy of the Lord. The conversation started because her sister, a pastor's wife, is always insisting that she MUST pay tithe in order for God to bless her. She is not paying tithe anymore to the SDA church. Her husband is not an SDA. He actually does not attend any church, although he considers himself a Christian and prays, etc. They had a sad experience last Saturday. When people go up to ask for the tithe and offerings, you know how they always use Malachi and "you have rob me". stuff. They have always felt really bad when they are accused of being thieves. Well, this past Saturday, one of their friends who they thought was different, asked for tithes and offerings, and guess what he used, Malachi and "if you don't pay your tithe, your are robbing God." That was very disappointing to them. The felt like robbers. I told them that the SDA church is made out of a bunch of thieves. Hold on, don't go crazy on me yet. My explanation was that according to the church's own statistics about one third of the members pay tithe. Out of that third another half doesn't pay the full 10%. That leaves at least two thirds, that according to their use of Malachi are thieves. What a bunch of thieves! That kind of made her understand a little bit more the desperation of the church officials to get their money. But in the process they are labeling at least two third of themselves as thieves. Oh well, I'm glad I don't believe I'm a thieve any more. Praise God. Hec | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6784 Registered: 3-2004  |
Hec, Do you know what Mal 3:10 is talking about? Go to Deut. 15:22-29. That will show you what Mal 3:10 means. Not all the Israelites paid tithe. Tithe was paid only on animals and agriculture. Fishermen, carpenters and other craftsmen did not pay tithe. Study this so you can explain what tithing was about. Our awesome God will give you the words to say. Diana L ps I have your book wrapped and ready to send. Just have to get to the post office when it is open. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 267 Registered: 8-2008 |
Think you meant Deut. 14:22-29. Adventists are robbing God by choosing to be under the tithe laws, and then not giving any of their tithe to take care of the poor. And, in fact, since neither the Levitical priests nor the Temple still exist, they must give all the tithe to the poor. If you choose to be under the Law, you have to keep the whole thing, not just the parts your church likes. That's why I'm glad I'm under grace now. (Message edited by bskillet on April 15, 2009) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6788 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thanks BSkillet, I did mean Deut 14:22-29. Diana L | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 466 Registered: 2-2008 |
BSkillet... like that... your "conditionally forgiven" sins. ha! Goes right along with their "conditional" mortality. Basically, what is being said is that Christ's death on the cross wasn't enough to wipe out their sins. sad. About the tithe... nothing irks me more than when I hear that you should pay tithe in order to be blessed. Is that why we give? So that WE can be blessed? I remember when I was growing up that my parents would tell me that if you want to be able to pet the lion, have a golden home, to ride your bicycle down a golden street,. etc.... then you need to love God and obey His laws. This is not what I am teaching my kids... they know that heaven is going to be awesome, but what's even better is that we will be able to be in God's presence and worship Him. LOVE that!!! ~vivian p.s. I love giving to my church now... I know that I'm supporting pastors who are making an impact on others for Christ. | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 82 Registered: 3-2009 |
Amen, Bskillet. I've always held to these ideas about tithe and the poor, even as a loyal SDA. When I would express this concern to other SDAs, they would say that our offerings are for the poor, but the tithe is for spreading the SDA message & proselytizing. I always thought it was wrong that the folks who really needed help were in there as an afterthought--if you had anything to spare after giving your tithe! | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 57 Registered: 3-2009 |
Oh, this is one subject in which I'm very clear about. I have no problem understanding the tithe system of Israel. What irks me is that this pastor (my aunt's husband) boast about paying double tithe and that's why God blesses him so much. Well, two things:
Oh, one more thing, there is a third aunt who does not have a car and is on social security. When she needs to go to the doctor, she has to ask some one else from the church to take her because he will not take any one anywhere because he does not want them to get dependent on him. (He is also retired, mind you.) He has a new car. And he has plenty of money in the bank. As a matter of fact he buys his cars brand new and cash. Now, how about that? God blesses him because he pays tithe but is not willing to help any one? Yeah, right. And then he want to makes my aunt feel guilty. She doesn't pay tithe to the church, but she helps any one as much as she can. She has a '96 corolla, but takes several old people to the doctor and supermarket etc. when they need her. Now, who is keeping the law? The Christian law, I mean. I'll stop, because if I go on, you'll send the fire department to cool me down. Hec | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 84 Registered: 3-2009 |
Hmmm, interesting approach to religion. "Because I do the "right" things, God blesses me!" How many times have I heard that attitude growing up! How sad. So, if things aren't going well in your life, you must not be obeying all of God's commands, or He'd be making your life easier! There's a great book on this concept by Larry Crabb called "Pressure's Off". Very good read  | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 729 Registered: 7-2007 |
Having been an Adventist for over 50 years, it's a familiar habit to think that I'm somehow responsible for part of my salvation. I have to remind myself of what the Bible says - that Jesus paid for ALL the sins of the world (Isaiah 53:6; 1st John 2:2) and that even my future sins are all forgiven!! (1st John 2:12) Jesus' atoning blood covers sins all the way back to the fall and all the way forward to the end. The part that Adventists (and anyone in a cult) don't realize is that all SINS are paid for except one. That sin is refusing Jesus' atonement. The trouble is, that if one believes Ellen White, they believe that SOME PART at least, is up to them and they just can't believe that Jesus did it ALL and they therefore end up rejecting Jesus' finished work. Now, Adventists might protest, saying; "but if people don't have rules to go by, they'll just do bad things and put a bad name on Christianity!" What they don't realize is that we're in a New Covenant now - the Covenant of the Spirit instead of the Covenant "of death, written and engraved on stones." (2nd Corinthians 3:7,8) When a person becomes a Christian, he/she is sealed with the Spirit (Ephesians 1:13,14) and he/she literally becomes a new creature (2nd Corinthians 5:17). He/she becomes one spirit with God (1st Corinthians 6:17). The person cannot help but have fruit, but they are not saved by the fruit. No, they are saved the moment they completely accept Christ and His finished work. |
