| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2650 Registered: 10-2004  |
Just some more blasphemy from The Desire of Ages that I came across... Jeremy | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 527 Registered: 11-2005 |
Wow... "He trusted in the Father's might..." So this Jesus couldn't calm the storm without having to rest in the faith of "God's love and care"? Kind of wimpy compared to the Jesus of the Bible, wouldn't you say? Mark 4:39 says, "And He got up and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, 'Hush, be still.' And the wind died down and it became perfectly calm." I remember when Pastor Gary preached on Mark 4:35-41, he specifically pointed out the fact that Jesus did not pray to His Father to calm the storm. He spoke on His own authority, and as a result the disciples grew very afraid. Vs. 41, "Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?" Quite a different picture from The Desire of Ages scenario. Grace (Message edited by snowboardingmom on March 29, 2009) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2651 Registered: 10-2004 |
Exactly. Also, notice that she says that Jesus had "laid down" His power, and that it was instead the "power of God" that calmed the storm! Her Jesus is certainly not God! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on March 29, 2009) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9601 Registered: 12-2003  |
Wow, Jeremy--and this is the Desire of Ages that is said to much more "orthodox" than her earlier works. Ellen White NEVER believed in the eternally sovereign Lord Jesus in whom all things are held together. Never. And when people argue that the official SDA doctrine is orthodox, I want to say, "Wait a minute! Doesn't it even matter to anyone what we LEARNED as Adventists? Doesn't it matter to anyone what the 'continuing an authoritative source of truth' actually says?" We all exited Adventism with a reduced Jesus who did not fully posses the power of God--and certainly had none of that power on earth. As Grace pointed out, Jesus calmed that storm on His own authority. Who was she copying, anyway? Whoever was compiling her information totally failed to check the literal words of the Bible... Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 249 Registered: 10-2008 |
I am crying . . . oh, I am crying . . . Yesterday, in church, the teaching leader of my Adult Bible study group - a couple of weeks ago told the group that SDA's believe Jesus is the Son of God. Sorry, I don't have time to post much at the moment . . . An experience - so like being spiritually abused happened yesterday in church that I'm reeling from it . . . and sometimes I wonder if I'm overreacting . . . And yes, it had partly to do with what you are saying above - Jesus was fully God . . . I have to go, but I will write more later. Keri | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 250 Registered: 10-2008 |
I will post at a later time - possibly (it may be in the member section) . . . I realize my post above is nebulous, lets just say the thread touched me deeply with something that happened in an adult Bible Study group this Sunday. Thank you for the initial post Jeremy and the comments afterwards. Keri | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 47 Registered: 3-2009 |
I don't want to be argumentative at all, but I have a question. How do you interpret John 5:19, John 10:18, John 14:8-14 & Phil 2:5-8? Although the Holy Spirit is at work in my heart, I feel I still have the SDA "filters" in place when I read scripture. Here it sounds as if Jesus willingly gave at least some aspect of his power to the Father--at least temporarily--when He came to earth.... And I have always been taught that was so He could be our example of how we should depend on Him to meet our needs. I'm looking forward to your feedback. Thanks much! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2653 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hi Seekinglight, Here's a link to a post where I made some comments on the John 5 passage: http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/11/8139.html#POST107461 And here is some very good commentary on John 5:19: http://www.biblestudiesforadventists.com/2009/quarter1/week8/sabbathschool3.html Also, the following is a good summary of the Philippians 2 passage from the Christian Research Institute: http://www.equip.org/perspectives/the-kenosis Jeremy | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 48 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thank you, Jeremy, for helping me undo my SDA thinking. I just want to read the Bible the way it was meant to be understood, and it's still very, very confusing right now. Like Colleen said somewhere else, the truth confuses SDAs when they're confronted with it for the first time. Wow, is that ever the case with me! I'm determined to keep slowly plodding along, and I think these references will help in this process. Anyone else, please feel free to chime in with your discoveries from the Bible on this topic.... | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 49 Registered: 3-2009 |
Whoa, all of this is hitting me like a ton of bricks. So Jesus was NOT our example of how to depend on God in our day-to-day life? I've accepted Him as my Savior, so He's living inside me now. Thus that dependence concept really doesn't make sense. How do I depend on His strength to live the Christian life when He's already doing all that thru me? So here are 2 more questions: 1. In what aspects is Jesus my example for living? 2. What aspects is He NOT my example for living? *befuddled...* | ||
| Akweavers Registered user Username: Akweavers Post Number: 119 Registered: 8-2008 |
That quote makes me sick. I used to say "I can't make it to heaven anyway so why try?" If Jesus came as a human and lived perfect we should be able to. Right? Well, I knew I couldn't. So I comforted myself in the fact that I would probably burn up really quick and it would all be over. It's hard to get to heaven when you don't have a real God as your Savior isn't it? Thank you Jesus for showing me that I am saved already through You alone and nothing I can do or have ever done expect claiming you as my Savior. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 251 Registered: 10-2008 |
Seekinglight, I wrote quite a post last night - and promptly, accidentally deleted it. So I went to bed  . This morning in an interdenominational Bible Study notes I read a couple of texts and thought of you and your question. These were the verses:
You see my "living" now is looking to Jesus (Numbers 21:8,9; John 3:14,15 - Looking to Jesus is how we are healed and live today), and the sin which clings so closely will be delt with by Him. Sometimes I'm convicted of something - never condemned (Rom. 8:1). The difference between the "feelings" between what Satan may try to do and the Holy Spirit - I am convicted by the Holy Spirit, but I am condemned by Satan. Satan is the "accuser of the brethren", the Holy Spirit convicts me and disciplines me. There is a different "feel" between conviction and condemnation. The other verse I came across is:
Who is going to bring it to completion? He who started the work. God finishes what He begins - unlike us humans. Lastly, I feel a little uncomfortable with the word, "example" in your question. It feels too much like EGW. Jesus is not my example. He is my Lord, Savior, and my Sovereign King. Even while He was on earth. He saved me - I rest in His work and now He works in me as I look to Him. Sounds too good to be true, huh! Oh, one last thought and take it for what it is worth . . . Since I have the Holy Spirit (the fullness of God) living in me . . . at any given moment I might be impressed about something - something to say, or do, or not do, or . . . So I listen inside and that is how I live - that is how I now live in the spirit (Romans 8:9-11 and Rom. 8:1-12 is good). The Holy Spirit communicating with me - with my spirit. Blessings my friend as God completes His good work in you - Rest in His work that He is doing in and through you. Blessings, Keri | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 51 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thank you, Keri. I don't like the word "example" either, but many Christians (non-SDA) use it also. They talk about Jesus being our example or we should emulate Him in our relationships, the way we treat others, etc. But, even that sounds like a lot of work. I like the ideas of rest and listening to Him much better You're right, it's almost too good to be true. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9606 Registered: 12-2003 |
Seekinglight, the thing Adventists get so wrong about Jesus as our example is they use the "example" of Jesus to demonstrate how we become Christ-like. Jesus was alive spiritually. We are born dead. We cannot follow Jesus' example to become like Him. Doing as He did will not give us life. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus raised the bar for "righteous behavior". But He was not telling people how to be good enough to please God. Rather, He was revealing what true righteousness would look like, and this sort of righteousness would only be possible if they were spiritually alive. He was revealing what a born-again life would be able to begin to experience. The only sense in which Jesus is our example is that He showed us how a spiritually alive person lives. He said He did nothing except that which His Father told Him to do. He said nothing except that which His Father told Him to say. Jesus' "example" to us is not healing the sick, raising the dead, preaching the gospel...although those are things God's people are equipped to do when He gifts them. The true essence of Jesus' example is that, after we have been made alive, we submit our entire life and work and dreams and desires and words and time and self to Him as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1), and we do what God reveals to us through His word and through His conviction. Jesus' example is only that of revealing how a spiritually alive person submits to the Father through Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit who gives us His life. Colleen | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 384 Registered: 7-2004 |
"Jesus was alive spiritually. We are born dead. We cannot follow Jesus' example to become like Him. Doing as He did will not give us life." Wow Colleen, that was so unbelievably wonderful! I have never heard it like that before! I absolutely think if adventists could just "get" that concept, they might be able to understand. I really, really needed to hear that just to finally "get it". Thank you. I do have a question that has been bugging me. I think it is related to this thread. Keri quoted Hebrews about "Jesus being the perfector of our faith". I reread your article from Proclamation the other day regarding ellen white and if she had changed over the years. Here is my question...what do adventists (and ellen) mean when they say by "faith" they can keep the commandments. I saw that she said that twice in your article, and I have heard it all my life. What is faith to an adventist? Faith that God will perfect you? It seems to me that the faith they are talking about is just about a polar opposite of true Christian faith in the shed blood of Jesus. I guess it just sounds like another word they use that sounds "Christian" but in reality is not even close. Am I on the right track with this? | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 52 Registered: 3-2009 |
So is that hymn "I would be like Jesus" an SDA hymn? kinda sounds like it could be... | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 829 Registered: 7-2005  |
Bb, to answer your question, my SDA hubby says that, just as the corn in the ear is still immature, so are we humans still immature. But just as God brings the corn to maturity, so He will bring us to maturity. In either state, whether immature or mature, the corn is still perfect, because it's God's work. And if the corn is cut down before it is fully mature, it is still perfectly formed, according to God's plan and timing, at the point it was cut down. I think what hubby is inferring here is that, if we die or the Lord comes back before we are fully mature, God will still consider us perfect, according to His plan and His timing. I have always felt hubby's analysis is the correct response to Adventism's conundrum of us having to be perfect before Jesus returns or before we die. It shows ultimate faith in God as the Author and Perfecter of our faith and works. I have heard hubby explain this to Adventists during Bible studies and Sabbath School classes several times. It always seems to calm their anxieties. Honestwitness | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1481 Registered: 5-2007  |
Bb and Honestwitness, In response to the theme of the maturity of our faith and to add my amen to your posts: My brother died at age four (I was six) with a total trust in Jesus as his Savior. In the example of the 'growing corn', he was fully mature. He certainly didn't know a whole lot about theology, there was no time for that stuff. Well over sixty years have gone by yet my faith in Jesus is no greater than his was. We have the example of 'the thief on the cross' as an example of our maturity in Christ. Phil | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 411 Registered: 7-2008  |
Amen Phil..I agree completely. Theology isnt what we need. We need Christ, plain and simple. Theology only complicates our faith. Let our faith be simple so it may shine brightly and draw others to Christ. Animal...keep it simple and God will be glorified !!!!! | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1814 Registered: 10-2002  |
Bb & Seekinglight, I think Phil & HW said it really well. I'll piggyback on what they said by saying that our "position" in following Christ's example is really important: The position that we "follow" Christ from now is not one of attaining salvation, not one of one day maturing enough to be saved or save-able. Christ is not our "tutor", so to speak. He is our Savior. He is the One who has made us children of God. The position that we live in, follow in, and obey God in is the position as one of His children, one of His saved, sealed & adopted children. We're in His house. (Actually, we are His house! Our bodies are His temple!) We are free to grow, just like a child is free to learn, grow and obey his or her parents without fear of being cast out of the house because of imperfect performance. The point of our "maturity" and "growth" is on a different track than the point of our salvation & adoption. Our justification & sanctification are on different tracks, so to speak. But yet, both proceed from Christ Himself and in Christ Himself. Both are in Him: The way that we "follow Christ" and "live for Him" is by dying to the law and letting Him simply live out His life within us. There is a hymn that says it well: And it occurs to me now, also, that the "perfection" spoken of is not a perfection of action or deed, but rather Christ is the pefector of our faith. Isn't that interesting? The bottom line is not "law" and "perfect obedience", but rather faith. In Adventism the whole "example" thing is not only over-stressed, it is a salvational matter. But on the whole, in mainstream Christianity it is also misrepresented. It is not usually "salvational" (sometimes it is, but not usually), but "Christ-likeness" is still over-stressed and seen through the lenses of the Law instead of the lenses of faith. Hence, you have things like the WWJD fad -- "What would Jesus do?" -- which look to Jesus as the example, and which see the bottom line as being actions, obedience, and in effect, Law. Most tellingly, evangelicals tend to stress "Christlikeness" the most when talking about evangelism. The manner of helping others come to know Christ is still seen in terms of perfection of action & law-obedience. The result of this emphasis is that much of the world (if not most of it) thinks of Christians as unapproachable "Holier-than-thous" or hypocrites. It betrays that a lot of us Christians (likely most of us) still look at "grace" as a path to keeping the law -- that "faith" came in order to help us obey the tutor better, so to speak. Hey, I fall into this thinking naturally, too, by the way! We don't realize that our message is not perfection or some magic way to be perfect. Our message is not that the Spirit will indwell us for the purpose of making us law-keepers. Instead our message is grace. Our message is that Christ has done it for us already! And now, as children of God, we can be free to grow up looking up to Daddy, growing up as His child. The "perfection" of the New Testament is spoken in terms of faith and love. Not sinlessness. Sin isn't good and we've got to ask for His help getting rid of it in our lives, but the gospel is not about sin-management... and if we make the gospel just about that, we'll keep fighting a losing battle while trying to appear holier and happier -- and the world sees right through that (often a lot clearer than we do). The perfection of the NT is a perfection of faith -- of trusting in God no matter what -- and a perfection of love -- of letting Him love through us and choosing His love instead of choosing what we rationalize as being "justice" for ourselves. What speaks best to the unbelieving world is those very two things -- faith and love -- because it is in these two things that they've got huge holes in their hearts. These are things that the world cannot give, but that can only be found in God. And, often these things come out best through the cracks of our weaknesses, our trials, our tribulations, our brokennesses, our "falls from grace", so to speak. We try to cover up our weaknesses and present what we think are our "strengths" to the world (our good behavior, etc.). But our "strengths" aren't really strengths, so the world sees our frequent failures and shakes its head or gets a good laugh at our expense. In contrast, Paul boasted of his weaknesses and thus proclaimed Christ's strength. Hmm, I think I'm going to cross-post this at the Cultic Art thread, because it really connects. In Christianity we try to draw these "perfect pictures" meant to be inspiring, but they simply feel so lifeless, dead, and uninspiring. I think we should paint our weaknesses and brokennesses more. Like David's psalms. A lot of folks in the world can, do, and will relate to that better. Bless you in Jesus! Ramone (Message edited by agapetos on April 01, 2009) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6710 Registered: 3-2004  |
It is with our weaknesses that another can connect with us. Diana L | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1641 Registered: 4-2000  |
We need more than a mere Exemplar, we desperately need a Savior and Substitute. Not surprisingly, another nineteenth-century cult agrees with the SDA view: www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/fhe/example.html However, I was somewhat stunned to notice on this LDS website that they actually encourage making a small chart for every member of the family and congratulating each other on their spiritual progress as each point is achieved during the week(including a smiley sticker). Adventists have not only stolen the Mormon health message, but they have also stolen their soteriological stance. Indeed, the commonality amongst the four major cults is too vast to ignore. Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on April 01, 2009) (Message edited by Dennis on April 01, 2009) | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 429 Registered: 10-2006 |
Thank you Ramone, Your words describe the realization that a relationship with God in Christ through the Spirit goes way beyond all boundries of the law. The hunger just keeps growing, to be more like our Hero Jesus. Nothing can stop us, not disappointment in ourselves or others, not circumstances, not failure. These things all knock us down when relating thru the law. But the very same become freedom-filled opportunities to glorify God in His work in us when we simply take it all in instead of trying to attain it or qualify for it. We have every right to know and proclaim that we are accepted by God, that we are secure, that we are significant in His estimation. (last line borrowed from Neil Anderson's Living in Christ). Thanks again for your post, Steve | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 830 Registered: 7-2005 |
I'm glad you all found a "kernel" of truth in my post above. <grin> Did you notice that the concept of the "corn in the ear" is something I learned from my * SDA * husband? I think it's pretty interesting that he gets it, even though he doesn't get so much else about Adventism. Honestwitness | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 386 Registered: 7-2004 |
So, Honestwitness, your husband has faith that if he were to be struck down before he was perfected, he would be saved? That is awesome, because I never learned that in adventism growing up. No wonder he is able to reassure people during their sabbath school class! That is more in line with believing in Jesus than ellen's theology! And Ramone, I love that, the perfector of our faith!! Perfect faith, not perfect law keeping! |
