| Author | Message | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 61 Registered: 3-2009 |
Jeremy, this is why you just can't argue she's a false prophet with staunch SDAs. Because you can take a quote from her that's unbiblical (even if it's in the "proper" context) and they'll simply show you another one where she totally contradicts herself and is completely "in line" with the Bible again. How's the avg. person supposed to get a handle on what she means?? SDAs just assume that anyone can do it, & if you cannot, you just need to try harder. It's so frustrating! Because I want to fairly look at all sides, I'm trying to get thru the book "Graffiti in the Holy of Holies" by Goldstein (quite a challenge!!), and this is the method he uses. He insults the reader for being too stupid to know what she's REALLY saying. (He doesn't use the word "stupid" but comes close) ***gonna go revel in my stupidity now*** | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2658 Registered: 10-2004  |
Oops! I just realized that I may have misread your post, Keri. Was the quote just from the SDA Bible Commentary, and not a quote from EGW? Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4474 Registered: 9-2006  |
I'm with Seekinglight, Personally I ain't seen much context to quote from.  River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2659 Registered: 10-2004 |
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| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 262 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jeremy, The reference is SDA Commentary v. 5, p. 1129 (last paragraph) and it is taken from a manuscript 140 - I'm assuming from an EGW manuscript. The quote from the person using it to show that SDA's don't believe in the divinity of Christ was, "The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty." The full quote would be, "The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one." FIGURE that one out . I reread the page again and there are times when it seems like she is extolling Jesus as divine and other times where it is very questionable. So I was incorrect when I said the "whole" page talks as if Jesus is fully God. I was wrong. Here are some quotes from this same page:
So she says in one place Jesus is fully divine while a human on earth and a few sentences later she says when He finished His work on earth then He could take up His divine glory again. The middle quote seems to say that His deity could be lost if He sinned - where I now understand Jesus, as fully God, could never have sinned-PERIOD. SHE is confusing and doubleminded! That is why it is difficult to discern sometimes and reason with an SDA. I know I wouldn't have been easy to reason with either! I'm with Seekinglight . . . "How's an average person to get a handle on what she means?" Last sidelight. I spoke with the person that had the reference above. They said, by all means I want to know this! I realize it is difficult to get everything "correct" - including. . . notice my own post where I put it was in v. 7 SDA commentary - when I got home I realized it was v.5 - and had been looking at both volumes last night. So I, too, stand corrected . Sorry, I guess I was spouting. I realize I'm a little sensitive right now as I'm being called to not only get a "handle" on new understandings - BUT also being called to defend these new understandings that are still gelling. Thanks in advance for your grace. Keri P.S. River - got a personal true story about killing bugs I think you'll enjoy. I'll try to post again later. I think you'll get a laugh or two from it. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2660 Registered: 10-2004 |
Keri, Hehe, somehow, I was guessing that that might be the EGW quote you were referring to! And that is an example of what I mentioned. It really doesn't matter what additional "context" there is, the statement that "The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty" is utterly blasphemous--I don't care what the rest of the sentence is! (Of course, none of us should misquote or make it look like that's the whole sentence if it isn't. I'm not sure if that is what was done in the source you are referring to.) But the statement itself is heresy, and the rest of the sentence (and even paragraph) does nothing to change that. Here is the whole paragraph:
Now, looking at the context (including the paragraph before and after), her statement could be interpreted in several different ways, but none of them good! She could be saying that Jesus is a lesser god, but "one in purpose" with, and exalted to equality with, the "Father." Or she could be saying that while on earth, Jesus was not God/was lesser than God. Or she could be teaching Gnosticism/Nestorianism (making Jesus Christ into two persons--one human and one divine) saying that the man "Jesus" was not God, but the divine "Christ" was God (although we know that when she says "Christ and the Father are one" she does not mean the Biblical/Christian definition of "one being"). Or she could simply be teaching the heresy of Tritheism, saying that Jesus and the Father (though "one" in purpose, character, etc.) are separate beings (although it would still be making Jesus "lesser" than the "Father" by denying that He is "the Lord God Almighty"). This last interpretation (separate beings) is the one put forth by SDA author and EGW-apologist Bob Pickle:
In other words, he's saying that she's denying the Trinity/monotheism! Pickle does not understand what Christians believe about the Trinity, since he has been taught the SDA version (or he's being deceptive). So, no matter what EGW meant by her statement, it is incredibly heretical and it denies the deity of Jesus Christ, who IS the Lord God Almighty--the one and only true God! Even when EGW, or other SDAs, do make statements that sound orthodox (such as Christ and the Father being "one" or that Jesus is "fully God"), they do not have the same definitions for those words that Christians have. This is a common feature of the cults. They have their own private definitions for common Christian terms. So they can sound Christian, but mean something totally different. So more-so than being double-minded, it's that they have different meanings for their words than Christians do. I also just took a look through the EGW quotes on page 1129 of the SDA Bible Commentary Vol. 5, and I see lots of subtle (and not so subtle) heresy. She certainly is not teaching that Jesus was and is God, in the Christian sense of the phrase. Sometimes you have to strip EGW's statements down to the heresy she is actually teaching, and not let her statements hide in their confusing "context." She used "context" to hide her heresy, and surrounded her heretical statements with good-sounding words in order to deceive. She (or the spirit guiding her) was confusing on purpose so that people would just swallow her poison! So we have to have spiritual discernment in order to even understand what she was saying! Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2661 Registered: 10-2004 |
I'll tell ya one thing, it sure is tiring to sort through all the EGW and SDA confusion...!  Jeremy | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 62 Registered: 3-2009 |
*Enlightened, but exhausted here!* I feel very validated and relieved that all my frustration, anger, and rebellious spirit over the years toward EGW had a rational reason behind it. And I had so much guilt for questioning her! Thank You, Jesus! Keep the truth coming--even when it's as confusing as can be... | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6720 Registered: 3-2004  |
While I was still an active SDA, God put within me a dislike of hearing EGW quoted at church. The thought He gave me was if there were any non SDAs there, they would not believe the preacher because it did not come from the Bible. I knew nothing of EGW at the time, except what I had learned at SDA school. That was the start of my disconnect with EGW. I can see why now. Our awesome God knew what He was doing in me. Diana L | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 264 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jeremy, The source I am referring to did make it look as if that was the whole sentence. So when I looked it up and found different - I was dismayed. And then I read through the page - and as you can see I was dupped. Thanks for pulling that apart . . . How do you sort through all her stuff - when trying to discern the heresy from the surrounding "good" words? I'm asking, because it seems like God seems to be putting me in a position to need "good" discernment as I dialogue with others. I do need spiritual discernment and desire to be very grounded Biblically. I guess I need to be patient with myself as coming out of a cult takes time. Thanks, Keri | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 265 Registered: 10-2008 |
Ok . . . Anyone up for a good laugh? I mentioned in one of my posts that I had a good "bug" story. Actually, two. This will go with River's comments above I was a student missionary in a tropical area. The island I was on had geckos and other strange creatures. The creatures us ladies "hated" the most were 1-2 inch flying cockroaches. Yes, the buggers flew! One night coming back from vespers (don't you love that word?) there was a huge cockroach on the ceiling of my apartment. I grabbed a chair and some bug spray. My roomate grabbed a broom to hit the thing if it started flying. I sprayed the bug as it clung to the ceiling and the ugly, despicable thing fell a little ways and started flying. My roomate started swinging the broom. I jumped off the chair to get out of the way. And then - HORRORS the ugly, aweful, dirty, gross, nasty, thing took a nose dive and flew up my skirt. My roomate was not to be diverted from her swinging mission and started pounding me with the broom - hoping the thing would fly out. I became undone - literally. Stripped the skirt off and ran screaming into the bedroom. While I was shaking and whimpering on the bed, I could hear whack! whack! in the other room. My roomate came in the bedroom laughing hysterically!!! I was not amused. I HATE the nasty things! Last story, with an analogy attached - no extra charge Still on the island - still dealing with these nasty bugs. One Sat. evening we (the SM's) were at the pastors house. The male SM's were helping us clean up the kitchen. A flying cockroach came out from somewhere. A male SM snapped his wet towel and hit the cockroach out of the air. Another guy stomped on it. The guys all patted the one fellow on the back that had "snapped" the cockroach out of the air. And then the fun began. All the fellows got wet towels and began to rattle the cupboards. Hundreds, nope I'm sure it was thousands, of awful flying bugs came out of the cupboards and floorboards. The fellows made sport of "snapping" the bugs out of the air or on the floor with their wet towels. The ladies retired to the living room and huddled on the couch praying the critters wouldn't come flying into our midst. The guys began to keep count to see who could kill the most. Kind of like ace flyers with airplanes painted on the hull of their fuselages. The more they rattled the cupboards the more these awful bugs came out. Literally, they did kill over 100 of those ugly creatures. Analogy - the more we shake the cupboards of our former understandings - the more these heresies reveal themselves. Thanks to all who are dedicated to killing and stomping out bugs! A traumatized fellow bug killer, Keri | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6721 Registered: 3-2004 |
I cannot beat your bug story, but I sure like the analogy. My bug story happened in Washington, DC and the thing was a big one about 3 inches long. I saw in on the long blouse sleeve of a friend. She was wearing fall colors, so it blended in very nicely. All I could do was stand there and point at and and say OH, Oh, Oh. She screamed and shook her arm. The thing flew to the floor then scrambled to the office next door. The lady there jumped up and climbed on her desk. One of the men went in there and stomped on the bug, then cleaned it up. Let us continue, with out awesome God's help, to shake the cupboards and point out the heresies. I guess my analogy is that the heresy is blended very well with the truth, but it can be seen, with God's help. Diana L (Message edited by Flyinglady on April 02, 2009) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 714 Registered: 7-2007 |
I wonder if that was the quote that I looked up back when I was an SDA? A friend had printed off some things from the internet and was pleading with me to read them. She begged so hard that I finally relented, with the stipulation that I would only read until I found something that wasn't so. Anyway I found that quote or one like it and went to church to look it up in the library. Sure enough, the SDA Bible commentary said that, and I read on further. Later on Ellen White said that Jesus was "Mighty God." Ah HA!!! I thought triumphantly to myself. See?!!! Ellen White DOES say He is God! I was a bit puzzled as to why Ellen White said Jesus wasn't Almighty God, but that He was Mighty God; but I didn't let that bother me too much. Later on, I found that Ellen White REALLY DID contradict the Bible and that sure came as a shock! I NEVER NEVER heard the slightest thing from SDA churches or schools though, in all the more than 50 years as an Adventist, to indicate that Jesus wasn't fully God. Adventist preachers always preached that He was God and I believed that He was fully God. It wasn't until AFTER I was rescued by God out of the SDA church, that I found a this quote. I didn't even know that Ellen White had a book called "Spirit of Prophecy." (I'd heard ALL her writings called "Spirit of Prophecy.") Anyway this quote is from "Spirit of Prophecy" vol. 1. It's in the second paragraph of the first chapter. (Pg. 17) Anyway here it is. I'll write it the way she does. quote: "The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence. The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father." After this, Ellen White goes on to tell how jealous Satan was that Jesus was exalted above himself. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 715 Registered: 7-2007 |
I took so long writing my last post that I didn't see the bug stories until afterward. I'm sure glad I don't live where there are bugs like that!!!!! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4476 Registered: 9-2006 |
Haa! I would have paid a bunch to see the spectacle of you with a bug up your dress and she whopping you with a broom! River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4477 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well...Yall make pretty good bug beaters. Ha. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9615 Registered: 12-2003  |
 Keri and Diana, you've prompted me to share my cockroach story--which in any case is nowhere NEARLY as horrifying as your flying roach, Keri! I was teaching 9th grace English one morning when one of the boys began screaming, a high-pitched, sustained scream punctuated only by occasional breathing. As he screamed, he stood on his chair, terrified and out of control. The room was in an uproar. It took some doing to get anyone calm enough to tell me the offense had been two cockroaches, at least 3-4 inches long, that had run from behind the ancient swamp cooler across the classroom floor. I, therefore, being responsible, had to find and kill. While the boy continued screaming (and to my distress and simultaneous relief, no one came running from the office), I went on the hunt. A clear-headed girl got me the Kleenex box, and I actually found and killed the bugs. (I cannot tell you much I loathe roaches..) And yes, the analogy is totally accurate. As I began to try to analyze what was "up" with EGW and with the whole SDA Christology I finally realized that what Jeremy is saying is ABSOLUTELY correct: no prophet of God will ever be unclear about the nature, identity, or purpose of God. If she's confusing, if she's both "right" and "questionable"--she's DEAD WRONG. Confusion is a sign of evil. Truth is clear, unchanging, authoritative, and confident. Evil is deceptive, confusing, and sort-of mesmerizing. Truth shines light on confusion. Evil soothes away the clarity of truth and causes equivocation. Truth is not equivocal. The only way to deal with Ellen is contrary to the way we were taught to think as Adventists. The only way to deal with her is by recognizing her confusion as a mark of darkness. Nothing in the universe is spiritually neutral. Ellen is not light. Ellen is darkness—because her message is inconsistent and causes her readers to accept rationalizations instead of clear reality. Colleen | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 417 Registered: 7-2008  |
BTW....... Down here in Florida we call them flying roaches......Palmetto bugs. Gotta wonder ...why did God make them rascals anyway???? ....Animal...just a wondering | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6723 Registered: 3-2004 |
Animal, I lived in New Port Richey for a year and down in Miami for a year and saw big bugs like the one in Washington, DC. I wondered all the time why God make them. Diana L | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2663 Registered: 10-2004 |
Exactly, Colleen. Ellen was an evil false prophet--everything she wrote was heresy. If she said something good, she didn't mean to! Seriously. Nothing she says even can be good, no matter how nice it sounds, because it is being said within the context of her false religion. Keri, you wrote:
Those are the main keys. As they say, the best way to spot the counterfeit is to study, and be familiar with, the true. And yes, it does take time, and practice, as Hebrews 5:13-14 says. Jeremy |
