| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
George, Not meaning to answer Colleen's question for her, but here is my thought. ^^Didn't Christ say, when ask what had to be done to be saved, "believe"? He didn't say follow me around until you can believe.^^ No. Christ rarely said, "Believe." He CALLED the fishermen to lay down their nets before asking them to believe. He HEALED people before asking them to believe. He TOLD STORIES (parables) without asking anyone to believe on him. In most cases he DID say "follow me" without asking for belief or faith. In the case of the rich young ruler, he only said, SELL all that you have and then FOLLOW me, without ever asking him to believe or to have faith. Colleen's comment is right on the money as far as I can tell. Christ knew each human heart and knew exactly how to reach each one. He was NOT like one of the many TV "faith healers" we have today who insist on faith before miracle or fulfilment of promise. Could say more, but got to go for fear of being late. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Patti, Soteriologically speaking, belief does not NECESSARILY = faith. Soteriology is the study of Christian salvation and is closely related to Christology. Max of the Cross | ||
| George |
Max, Thanks for your opinion. At least some of the time belief does equal Faith. George | ||
| George |
Patti, Nice to hear from you. You did get the intent of my question, as I was asking in regard to salvation. Some day I will get all this figured out and will be able to make a decision as to what I want to do about it. I guess I am one of those that can't follow till I believe. A better way to say it would be I can't join till I know what I am joining. Feel free to jump in any time you want, as I value your thoughts and opinion. George | ||
| Patti |
Thank you, George. I appreciate your willingness to put up with me. You are right. No one "follows" until they "believe." But, then again, I believe that believing IS following. And no one can "see" the kingdom of heaven, no one can truly understand that salvation is theirs now, not because of what they think, do, say, believe, etc., but because of the completed work of Christ, unless the Holy Spirit reveals this to him. I believe that the Holy Spirit is working in you mightily. It is He, and He alone, Who can convict and convince. And it is not necessarily given us all in one perfect revelation. Often the believer grows into the knowledge and the assurance that Christ's grace is sufficient for us. We do have Christ's personal promise that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth. God's great saving acts in history have always been HIS acts, so that His name would be praised on the earth; His great saving acts did not involve a cooperative action with men. Psalm 46:8 Come, behold the works of the LORD, what desolations he hath made in the earth. 9 He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire. 10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth. 11 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Likewise, His greatest saving act was completely accomplished by Him, once for all, on earth some 2000 years ago. I pray that you will grow steadily into the perfect assurance (confidence, faith, trust, belief) that Christ's doing and dying in and of themselves are all that helpless sinners need in order to inherit eternal life. JESUS paid it ALL. Trusting that this is so, "being still" and knowing that He is our God and our Savior and has delivered us as He has promised, leads to the greatest gift we can know on this earth, the peace that passes all understanding. Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| George |
Patti, Interesting point, He is the one that convinces us. Perhaps this is why I can't seen to be "convinced" that He even exists. Maybe I just have to say, "convince me". For me, this is very frightening. It is vary much like standing on a cliff on a foggy day and jumping, hoping I will fly like an eagle, rather than fall like a rock. It is the not knowing that gets me. Well, one say I will get it figured out. Thanks for the encouragement. George | ||
| Max |
^^No one "follows" until they "believe"^^ is unscriptural. What is scriptural is, No one believes until s/he follows. There Are No Steps to Christ. If you take steps to Him it is only because you are being drawn by the Christ-Who-Is-With-You-Already -- the Holy Spirit -- calling you, summoning you, leading you, drawing you to Him and His unfathomable love. Example: "As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. they were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. Come, FOLLOW me, Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men." At once they left their nets and FOLLOWED him." Matthew 4:18-20 NIV. Nothing is said about believing first and following second. Nothing, in fact, is said about believing at all! Humans do not and cannot take the initiative. God's grace ALWAYS takes the initiative. When it comes to dealing with God, we are congenitally incapable of taking the initiative. Having to be convinced of God's existence 1st, having to believe 2nd, and choosing to follow 3rd is sheerist legalism and a hapless attempt to control God-the-Uncontrolable. It is a death wish to deny God's INITIATIVE of free grace. | ||
| Max |
On the other hand, ^^believing IS following^^ IS certainly scriptural. But here something is happening WITHIN the believer: Following is an ACTION step, an ACT of faith, a fruit of the Spirit. Fruits of the Spirit begin instantly in every believer. The publican bore fruit when he SMOTE himself and PRAYED -- two action steps, two acts of faith. The thief on the cross ACTED on his belief and PRAYED to the Son God on the cross next to his. All true faith involves ACTION, which is always the fruit of the Spirit. All false faith involves a turning away from the Spirit and hence cannot be a fruit of the Spirit. | ||
| Max |
Patti, You have said some very true and certainly scriptural things. But the Holy Spirit IS involved in all coming to Christ. ^^JESUS paid it ALL. Trusting that this is so, "being still" and knowing..." Notice that: * "trusting" is an act, a response, a fruit of the Spirit. It is more than having an opinion or a cold, calculating intellectual belief that seeks to "win a ticket to heaven" by "playing the odds." To the contrary, it is a "heart belief" -- as opposed to a "head belief" -- that results in loving actions which are the fruit of the Spirit. * "being still" is an act, a response, a ceasing of legalism, and therefore a fruit of the Spirit. * "knowing" is an act also, for one must take the responsive step of starting to realize that it is GOD -- and not self -- who is God. Therefore it too is a fruit of the Spirit. No human response to God's free grace can be devoid of God's Spirit WITHIN the believer. And no belief is possible without the Holy Spirit taking the initiative. | ||
| George |
Max I think we are mincing words there, as it seems you are agreeing with both sides. George | ||
| Patti |
George wrote: For me, this is very frightening. It is vary much like standing on a cliff on a foggy day and jumping, hoping I will fly like an eagle, rather than fall like a rock. It is the not knowing that gets me. Patti: But you can know. Everything necessary has been done for your eternal salvation. It is a done deal. Knowing that Jesus has worked out our salvation is what makes this life worth living. We do not need to worry if we are doing, feeling, believing, or changing "enough" to be accepted by God. We have been accepted already because of the vicarious life and death of Jesus Christ for us. It is only when we realize this that we are made truly free. Free from guilt, free from despair, free from uncertainty, free from the bondage of the law. We can stop being anxious about whether we are worthy or not, because we know that we are not. No matter what we do, no matter how hard we pray, work, study, believe, we will never be worthy. NEVER. But Jesus Christ is worthy. And it is HIS LIFE and HIS DEATH that become ours (by faith) when we trust that He is worthy. I have said this before, and I do not know how to state it any better: The question is, George, not what God thinks about YOU, but what He thinks about Jesus Christ. When we trust in Jesus Christ, God regards us as He does His own Son. Do you believe that the doing and dying of Jesus Christ are sufficient (meaning nothing else is needed for your salvation) for you, or do you not? If you do, this is faith, pure and simple. If you do not believe that the work of Christ is sufficient for you, then you are going to have to add something to it of your own devising. This is legalism in all of its myriad forms, pure and simple. There are only 2 choices: Either Christ completely worked out our salvation on this earth, or we have to do something ourselves to earn it. Choice 1: Faith only. We are saved by the perfect work of Another, and nothing in and of ourselves. Christ's work is perfect and complete. Choice 2: Faith plus [whatever]. We must add something to the work of Christ for our salvation. Christ's work is neither sufficient nor complete. And since we have to add something of our own devising to it (which, being produced by sinful flesh, will be permeated with sin), then our salvation is neither perfect nor definite. Two choices, George. Either Christ paid it all, or He did not and you must do what He left unfinished. Think about it. Thank you for your usual kind words. Looking forward to more dialog. His grace is sufficient for you, George. Patti | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Patti, Hi! :-)) My son is calling me to head out with him...But I just had to say AMEN to your post above; couldn't word it any better myself! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
George, Martin Luther said that believing is an act of faith. | ||
| Max |
Luther also said that believing is a good work, and "the chief good work," meaning the first and highest good work or choice that the person whom Christ is summoning can make. | ||
| Max |
Followed by a vigorous life of good works, also involving rest (thank you, Cindy). But none of these good works (prayer, giving, "turning the other cheek", resisting the devil, etc.) has any bearing whatsoever on 1. the beginning of your salvation, or, 2. the maintenance of your salvation. That is secure in Christ's historical, alien-to-us act (thank you, Patti) on the cross. | ||
| Max |
And love is the road, and not the destination alone. For Jesus of Nazareth reduced ALL commandments to one and one only: Thou shalt love! 1. Vertical love: Love God as he has loved you, that is, with self-sacrificing or unconditional or agape love. 2. Horizontal love: Love thy neighbor as thyself. But you cannot love yourself unless you have first responded to God's love for you on the cross. | ||
| Max |
George, ^^It seems you [Max] are agreeing with both sides.^^ Thank you, George, although I don't think I'm deserving of so high a compliment. Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers." An alternate translation of the Greek is, "Happy are the peacemakers." This too is a gift of God and a fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, I DON'T deserve so high a compliment. Not of myself. For ALL good works (or choices) come from God alone. As Jesus said, "There is none good but God." Blessings have come to you, George, for I perceive you acting as peacemaker also. Max of the Cross | ||
| Colleentinker |
George, I agree with Patti above: there are two choices. Either Christ has done everything necessary for our salvation, or it's up to us to be good enough. Also, following IS believing. The apostles whom Jesus called followed him without having a detailed intellectual understanding of Jesus. They followed because they were complelled by the truth and the call of God in him which gave him the authority to call them to follow. Believing in Jesus does not mean understanding the theological intricacies of sin and salvation. It means recognizing the compelling authority of the Holy Spirit in your spirit and following Jesus, even if you don't understand everything. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" doesn't mean "Understand the Lord Jesus Christ." It means believe the conviction which the Holy Spirit brings to you, and that belief is spiritual, not necessarily intellectual. I do not discount the intellectual component of being a Christian. But I do not believe that an intellectual understanding is not what equips us to respond. What equips us is a spiritual belief that Jesus is who He says he is, that he has died for us, that God counts us righteous when we accept his death for us. Only the Holy Spirit can convict any of us of these truths. For some of us, following means suspending our feelings of doubt and unworthiness and going forward by faith into the unknown of following Jesus. For others of us (and some of us have to suspend both of these things) we have to suspend our intellectual critique and analysis and by faith walk toward Jesus and accept his gift. For many of us (most?), the reality of our acceptance and safety in Christ does not seem to be a sure thing until AFTER we take the step of commitment. Conviction is always an act of faith, but it is an act that we take with the assurance of the Holy Spirit's convicition on our hearts. My prayers for you continue, George! In His love, Colleen | ||
| Patti |
Thank you, Colleen and Cindy. Your words are important to me. Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| Cindy |
Afternoon, Max!... And thank You! for your post of this morning. :-)) :-)) You wrote concerning "believing"... "Followed by a vigorous life of good works, also involving rest (thank you, Cindy). But none of these good works (prayer, giving, "turning the other cheek", resisting the devil, etc.) has any bearing whatsoever on 1. the beginning of your salvation, or, 2. the maintenance of your salvation. That is secure in Christ's historical, alien-to-us act (thank you, Patti) on the cross." Can we shake (or hug?!) on that? :-)) :-)) Grace always, Cindy |
