| Author | Message | ||
| Jennyclarinet Registered user Username: Jennyclarinet Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2007  |
Hey all, I haven't been posting for a long time, but I've continued lurking, trying to educate myself on Adventism. The other day, I was talking to my boyfriend and mentioned a tragic homicide that happened here in the Cleveland area last week which left an entire family, children included, dead. My boyfriend's reply to this was to the effect of, in the last days, God will retreat from the world and let the demons run amok, causing people to do especially evil things. This sounded like Ellen White to me, but I didn't want to argue, especially since I don't exactly have any counter-arguments ready. But what is the SDA reasoning for all this stuff about God pulling away from mankind in the end times? That is not the loving God I know. How do we tell Adventists that this is not so? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1854 Registered: 8-2004  |
Adventism teaches that as probation closes God's Spirit will be/is being withdrawn from the earth and the evil forces that it has been holding back will be unleashed. "Probation" is Adventism's word for what Jesus bought for us on the cross: time and grace to get it right. If we are not perfect by the time probation closes for us we will be lost. Since probation closes for each person as his/her name comes up and is decided in the investigative judgment (another idea unique to Adventism), it happens progressively and inexorably. They use verses like 'My spirit will not always strive with man" to contradict "Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the world." | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1367 Registered: 6-2006  |
That's disgusting! Thanks for straightening that out Mary. That's one I wasn't familiar with. Leigh Anne | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6610 Registered: 3-2004  |
Don't forget Hebrews 13 where it says "I will never leave you or forsake you". God showed that one to me this past November when I was on vacation. I am so glad He did as I use it often. Diana L | ||
| Angelcat Registered user Username: Angelcat Post Number: 78 Registered: 11-2008 |
Several months ago I asked a good friend of I that,why God wouldnt' be with us at the end of time when he said he woudl always be with us. She's not SDA so had NO idea what I was talking about. She told me the that anyone saying God wouldn't be with us was not of God as that was NOT what the Bible said. I had no idea it was an SDA thing. I also didn't know the OP was an SDA thing. That one always worries me. End time stuff really scares me. One of my biggest fears has always been that at the end of time, my family and friends will hear God announce the time of His coming, and it'll just sound like thunder to me. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 987 Registered: 7-2004  |
There's another Ellenism - the Bible doesn't say that God will ever announce the time of His coming. The only thing the Bible says is that no one knows the day or the hour, except God the Father. What a way to promote fear and give people something else to worry about--the Bible also nowhere says the unsaved will hear thunder instead. But I do remember Ellen White wrote that. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1858 Registered: 8-2004 |
The idea of 'thunder' when God's voice is heard is from John 12:27-30. Jesus said, "Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!" Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again." The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine. (Message edited by helovesme2 on March 10, 2009) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6613 Registered: 3-2004 |
Angelcat, You have nothing to fear. God is always with us and will never leave us. Whatever the end times bring we have nothing to fear because God is with us. Diana L | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1371 Registered: 6-2006 |
Amen, Diana!! Romans 8:14-16 (New International Version) 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[a] And by him we cry, "Abba,[b] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children God does not want you to be afraid!!  Leigh Anne | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 177 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jesus or the Holy Spirit will not remove Himself at the end of time as taught by EGW. Matthew 28:20 last part states, "I am with you always, to the end of the age." The end of the age - would seem to be the end of this creation as we know it - when Christ returns and makes everything new. Praise God, huh! Keri | ||
| Angelcat Registered user Username: Angelcat Post Number: 82 Registered: 11-2008 |
The last few posts have really made me feel better. I really need to remember God's promises, and not EGW's warnings. Keri, that is an xcellent point. God says He'll be with us til the end of the world. | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 132 Registered: 10-2008  |
I've heard a number of sermons on Job lately that speaks about God allowing things to happen but ultimately He is not withdrawing but in His Sovereign status allows things to happen for His glory. God has allowed things to happen but He has never forsaken us. Remember Romans 8 in the closing verses. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. He's not withdrawing He's holding us in the palm of His hand | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9552 Registered: 12-2003  |
Thank you, Psalm! Wonderful reassurance! Colleen | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 777 Registered: 11-2007  |
Jesus did say "And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold" Matt. 24:12 - speaking of end times - so I think it can be expected that evil and cruelty will increase, but not because of God withdrawing, but because of man's rebellion!! The thought of God withdrawing away from us is horrible and so against His promises. I remember thinking I was going to have to be "strong" by myself. So glad that is not the case!! | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 78 Registered: 9-2006 |
This was part of the end time scenario which requires us to stand before God without a mediator. Our characters will be perfect, so we can stand on our own, without Christ's blood or forgiveness. This is parallel with God's Spirit being withdrawn from the earth. Someone can clarify this better, but that's what we were taught from Great Controversy. | ||
| Bobalou Registered user Username: Bobalou Post Number: 56 Registered: 2-2005 |
I have not frequented the forum for quite some time. I am sure glad I dropped in today. While I am assured that the Spirit will be with us always, still my thought was that in the last days violence and other tragedies would increase because the Spirit would be withdrawn. My brain still has some Ellenism stuck away back in the deep crevices. Thanks for posting Jenny. Just when I thought I had cleared all the rubbish I discover another. That is what 40 some years in a false church does. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6654 Registered: 3-2004 |
Bobalou, You just struck a chord with me. I was born and raised SDA. I went into the "world" after my divorce and practically quit going to church, quit paying tithe(when I did I could not pay all my bills without a late payment). I did that for about 24 years, more or less. Looking back now, God was showing me how He takes care of me without all the legalisms of adventism. There is so much I have forgotten about adventism. I remember them when they are spoken of here or on CARM. AWESOME GOD, I thank you for teaching me about YOU and how you care for me. Diana | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 700 Registered: 7-2007 |
Angelcat; Jesus did the WHOLE ATONEMENT, so if you've accepted Him, you have absolutely NOTHING to worry about. He paid for ALL your sins, past, present and future (Hebrews 10:14; 1st John 1:12; Colossians 2:13; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2nd Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5,6) Adventists who can't put their WEIGHT DOWN on what God says in His Word because of what Ellen White says, aren't saved. When I found out that the SDA church was false, then I COULD completely put my weight down on Jesus' sacrifice. Before that, I had to come up with a sort of "middle ground" between Ellen White's words and the Bible. Those people in that "middle ground" space don't know the Lord, no matter how many good works they do for Him. | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 354 Registered: 1-2007 |
Asurprise, You are right when you said 'no matter how many good works they do for him.' Anyone can do good works without their heart being in it. The operative word is heart. As I look back at the time I spent in the church and even now I can see that they are afraid to give their whole heart and this seems to come from the fear instilled in them from the church and egw which is very unhealthy. I praise God for leading me out of this oppressive fear and teaching me to give Him my whole heart. Gail | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 426 Registered: 10-2006 |
Asurprise, "Adventists who can't put their WEIGHT DOWN on what God says in His Word because of what Ellen White says, aren't saved" I have told Adventists who said that "those who attack adventism are going to hell" that they do not have the authority to say that. Now I'm going to tell you that you do not have the authority to say what you did in the above quote. You do not know who is saved and who isn't, that's not your role in this life. Steve | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 359 Registered: 1-2007 |
Steven, I am not Asuprise and can not answer for her and won't try. I read her post several times and I agree with her that a house divided will not stand and that is what egw does with her teachings. I did not get the impression she is judging anyone person but the church teachings. The bible teaches that we are to give our whole heart to God and there is no half here or half there. It is all or nothing! Steve, I don't know if you were ever sda or not but if you were you should have learned that we can not be saved by our own works but by the works of the Holy Spirit when we totally give our love and heart to Jesus and His teachings. Yes I was sda and today I praise God for bringing my heart together as one with him. Yes there are those in the sda church who are saved but they are on slippery ground for staying. All we can do is show them where the ground is slippery and then from there it is between them and the Lord. There are those who sit in the pews every saturday and have never gotten past the text proofing they were taught and really read their bibles (without the help of egw) but have read egw from cover to cover and believe everything she has written and this is what prevents them from being able to put their full weight on God's word. The reason they feel attacked is because their veil is soooo thick that they can not see the forest for the trees and satan is not going to let go of the veil if he can help it. We as christians are not attacking them personally but the false teaching they have been taught. If only they could distinguish between the two. Jenniclarinet, I apologize for side railing your op. Her so called IJ judgement. God knew all about us before we were ever born. All of what egw wrote is hogwash and should be put in an acid bath to be never more for all the damage it has done to so many. Gail | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 427 Registered: 10-2006 |
Gail, I hate these discussions, but here goes. I've been non sda for 5 years. There is a difference between the Adventist belief system and the Adventist individual. Asurprises statement was hopefully a just a slip up of words, because I do not want to believe that she really believes that Adventists are lost because of what they believe. They are not any different than the Jews Paul describes in Romans 3. There is a difference between being lost and just screwed up. Jesus said not to judge others in terms of their salvation in Matthew. Obviously, if someone refuses the blood sacrifice of Christ knowingly, they shut the door. Many Adventists are not guilty of this, they are only guilty of ignorance and God will show them their error in due time. I think we are not that far apart in mindset, for your statement " Yes there are those in the sda church who are saved but they are on slippery ground for staying. All we can do is show them where the ground is slippery and then from there it is between them and the Lord. " is not at all disagreeable to me. I just have an issue with statements that speak outside of Biblical authority when it comes to placing others on either side of the salvific line on the basis of understanding or knowledge. Just sayin.... Steve | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 80 Registered: 9-2006 |
By the common standards of decency in our society, it is intolerant to assume someone is "lost." Most people have little trouble with Jesus' statement in Matthew 7:1, "Judge not..." because it feels like good postmodern tolerance. Are we giving someone the "benefit of the doubt" by assuming they are saved, even if there are indications they may not be? Many of us believed we were (or hoped to be) saved when actually we did not know Jesus and had not been born again. I was one of those, because I had false views of God and false ideas of Jesus' identity. Many of my false ideas came off the pages of EG White, though I did not know it. Her distortions of Christ's identity and finished work blocked my ability to see the real Jesus . It wasn't until I read and heard the gospel clearly taught, was regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and given real trust in him, that I was made alive. I believe it is also that way for many Adventists, and mainstream Christians as well. False doctrines, such as the IJ, Sabbath as a test, perfection in the flesh, are genuine and sometimes fatal obstacles to our trusting and knowing Jesus. The NT goes to great pains to make the gospel clear. There are Adventists who are saved while having distorted views of God, only because of his soveriegn power to call and speak to his own. Jesus asked us to avoid hypocrisy, but also to exercise discernment. He said things like, ""Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine" (Matthew 7:6); or, "Beware of false prophets...You will know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:15,16,20). Paul told church members, "Do you not judge those who are within the church?...Remove the wicked man from among yourselves" (1 Corinthians 5:12,13). Thank God, "tolerance" and genuine love for others are not the same thing! |
