| Author | Message | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1376 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hi Y'all, I just have a question about the regulations given to the Children of Isreal regarding Sabbath. Has anyone here made a list of all the rules and regulations? I know that a person was not allowed to gather sticks, kindle a fire or travel. Are there more, and were they all commandments from the Lord? I'm in a dialogue with a person who insists we (Christians) are obligated to keep the same 10 Commandments as were given to the CoI. I'd like to make it clear what the Sabbath is before we go any further with the conversation. I will also ask her to provide Scripture verses stating when the gentiles were commanded to keep these same commandments. Thanks!  Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9548 Registered: 12-2003  |
Leigh Anne, do you have Dale Ratzlaff's book, Sabbath in Christ? He covers these issues thoroughly, and he shows the paradox between the OT commands and Jesus' own ministry. Chapter 9 details a lot of the OT rules (including texts) and the ways He offended the Pharisees. Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1378 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Colleen, I don't have that book yet, but I've been planning to get it. I didn't even think about Jesus offending the Pharisees, but that's a great point. Where does the SDA church draw it's conclusions on the structure of proper Sabbath keeping? Is it a mish-mash of OT + Ellen White? Mostly EGW? Thanks again, Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9549 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pretty much a mish-mash. Actually, Adventists keep Sabbath very differently in different geographical locations. The church has compiled lists of acceptable Sabbath activities, but I can't at the moment locate the official list that came out a few years ago. I think the Adventist Review ran it...(Jeremy? Anyone?) Here is a link to an article by Roy Adams in the Adventist Review about Sabbath-keeping: http://adventistreview.com/article.php?id=1207 Here is a link to an article by a non-SDA who reviews Adventist Sabbath beliefs and then discusses the Sabbath doctrine: http://www.bibleanswer.com/sevn_day.htm I do recommend Dale's book! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2635 Registered: 10-2004  |
It's on the official SDA website: http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/other_documents/other_doc6.html Jeremy | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 186 Registered: 10-2008 |
Woa, Jeremy. That website is yeh, woa. I went to Home and Family Life as Related to the Sabbath section. Number 4: 2nd paragraph (section) really hit me - because Deut. 6:4-6 is the Shema. It is not talking about the 10 commandments. I saw this used in my literature book from Jr. High [went to SDA school] (the book I've kept all these years - don't ask me why). They totally took the Shema, Deut. 6:4-6; out of context. Deut. 6:4-6 - says to Love God supremely and loving God supremely is to be taught to your children. I guess SDA's extrapolate the 10 commandments out of that - or into that. Interesting . . . the length of that web page should tell us something about the legalistic nature in which they look at the Sabbath observance. Keri | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 202 Registered: 8-2005 |
"As the children grow older, activities will enlarge to encompass other members of their age group in the church, with the question always in mind, "Does this activity cause me to understand better the true nature and sacredness of the Sabbath?" Thus proper Sabbath observance in the home will have a lasting influence for time and eternity." WOW! Question always in mind? How about focusing on Jesus! | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 243 Registered: 8-2008 |
Brian, why do you need Jesus when you have the Sabbath and Ellen White? /sarcasm | ||
| Scarred4life Registered user Username: Scarred4life Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2009 |
I have never understood the whole Sabbath do's and dont's of Adventism - and thats after 38 years of being one. Work is work to me, doesn't matter if you are a Doctor, Nurse, Builder, Truck Driver etc.. The whole argument that Jesus healed on the Sabbath means that the medical field is exempt never cut it with me, Jesus was a carpenter and each Sabbath day he didn't get out of bed and get ready to go to work and heal the sick and earn an income off his healing. He went out to preach to the people and healed people along the way as he came across them. How can you possibly be thinking about God on the Sabbath when you are running around like a headless chicken in an under staffed hospital, I know several Nurses in the Adventist church and they work on weekends for the extra money. Because of there profession they don't get looked down upon as would someone who sells real estate for example. | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 235 Registered: 1-2007  |
Scarred4life, I always thought it kind of comical how the Adventists always say keep the Sabbath holy do not do your own pleasure on the Sabbath. Than each would do what they felt was right or wrong on the Sabbath. My MIL has no problems playing solitary on the computer on the Sabbath, while my BIL will say that cards are evil. One family has no problem going on a bike ride whil the other says that is wrong. It's so mixed and matched, it's all but funny yet sad. Would not going on a bike ride, hanging out at pot luck joking around, whatever leisure activity they choose still be doing their own pleasure? You see Jesus worked on the Sabbath and said My Father works. He was doing the works of God.When you go back to Genesis God rested Adam in the Garden to work it and guard it. Sabbath doesn't mean physical rest, laziness, or working as a doctor or nurse while earning an income for it. Sabbath is resting in God and not doing our own works and allow God to work through us, and that is what was intended from the beginning. Sabbath was meant to be eternal, trusting in God. The ground was not cursed and Adam did not toil or sweat. Upon Adam sinning the ground was cursed, Sabbath was lost. That is why God did not accept Cain's offer, Cain was a tiller of the ground which was cursed, so he was offering up to God his own cursed works, such as anyone attempts to do by keeping the law. Now but we offer to God our praise and faith through the sacrifice of Jesus. We rest in His works. The Sabbath command given to COI was only pointing back to the true Sabbath that was lost and forward to the resturation which is in Christ. We now rest daily in His works, and through the Spirit we work for God, we are not idle, and we do not do our own pleasure when it comes to the Kingdom of God. Paul (Message edited by pnoga on March 13, 2009) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1380 Registered: 6-2006 |
Everyone is giving such good points! My question is, who gets to determine what is holy and what isn't? The GC? Each individual? That's not the Sabbath given to the Children of Isreal. The SDA's I've had exchanges with insist that we are obligated to keep the 10 Commandments because they were written in stone by the finger of God. Okay, THEN DO THAT. Don't tell me that you keep the same Sabbath of the Bible and then follow your own made up rules. SDA's also tell me that God never changes. Okay, then explain when the Sabbath changed to suit your own lifestyle. Leigh Anne | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6622 Registered: 3-2004  |
Leigh Anne, Remember that as soon as Moses came down from Sinai, he threw down the tablets and broke them. Being written in stone with God's finger means nothing. Diana L | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 131 Registered: 10-2008  |
Leigh Anne, Dale's book was pivotal in my solidifying my change in Sabbath beliefs (I was first introduced to the unbiblical nature of the SDA church and it's doctrines by the ministry of Mark Martin) I recommend it like I recommend a hungry person have something to eat at lunch time I've had some interesting discussion over the years with SDAs over what is "right" on the Sabbath. One fellow I talked to lived in the Caribbean and said because of the heat it is OK to swim on the Sabbath. He also worked in a power plant and said because people would wilt inthe heat without air conditioning it was OK to go to that particular job-yet if someone was swimming in and indoor pool in winter....well you get the idea. I'm a social worker and due to the high volume of clients there are times I have to work on Saturday. When I was and SDA my Mom was fine with it and said I was doing the Lord's work-now that I'm not an SDA she has taken a # of opportunities to say "you know better...sabbath quotes galore follow. One thing I've noticed when the topic of what is right comes up I find SDAs will actually make fun of and call Jewish people legalistic yet the topic can go on for hours of what is OK and what is not. And I like to point it out when that list of do's and dont's gets lengthy. Enoch | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 238 Registered: 1-2007 |
also Stone was used as a symbol for death. When someone broke the law they stoned them. when they were in the tomb it was covered with a stone. When Jacob made a covenant with Laban in Gen 24 they setup a stone as a pillar and a heap of stones as a witness against them that they would not cross to cause harm to each other. The alters of sacrifice were made of stone. As we all know the 10 commandments are called the ministry of death written and engraved in stones 2 Cor 3:7. And Isaih 28 talks about Israel's covenant with Death which is the old covenant engraved on stones. To me being written in stone only meant death to man. Paul said the commandment which was meant unto life only caused him to die. We die to the law. Paul | ||
| Mommyk Registered user Username: Mommyk Post Number: 248 Registered: 4-2007  |
Paul, great post. Thanks. Until I was ten years old, my family lived in a predominantly orthodox Jewish neighborhood. The synagogue was about two blocks from our house and every Sabbath we'd see them all walking to Synagogue, because, of course they could not drive on the Sabbath. Our neighbors asked me and my sisters many times to come over and turn on their ovens or light switches because they could not "kindle a fire" on the Sabbath. They would pay us a quarter each time we helped, too. Anyway, I remember my parents saying how silly they were for being so legalistic and having so many rules for the Sabbath. Meanwhile we had our own set of legalistic rules for the Sabbath! So hypocritical! Leigh Ann...good luck in your discussion. Unfortunately you aren't going to get anywhere with her. My Mom is as closed-minded as they come!!! (You knew that she is my mom, right? ) ~Kristen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1388 Registered: 6-2006 |
Kristen, I did not know that Carolyn was your Mom! You're right, she's pretty closed-minded, and has all the standard SDA answers. I have to hand it to her for taking all our questions and comments. I totally realize that I can't change her mind, and most of my questions are for my own benefit. I don't have many of these discussions and it's good to practice them every so often. I asked her one more question, but I'm getting weary of the Ellenisms. I'll just pray for her freedom. If she hangs around formers long enough hopefully some good things will rub off on her. Leigh Anne | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4388 Registered: 9-2006  |
Man what a money maker Kristen, I think I'll go down to Meadowglen and offer to turn on burners at dollar apeace (inflation) course it would be just like them Adventist to lite their own burner and break the Sabbath. If they break tha Sabbath I'll turn Phil loose on their neighbor hood. River | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1391 Registered: 6-2006 |
Kristen, I think I made your Mom mad!! I told her that Abraham and Noah did not keep the Sabbath and she went off. Hopefully I planted some seeds. Love, Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2638 Registered: 10-2004 |
Kristen, They paid you a quarter? What about the command to not buy anything on the sabbath day? Jeremy | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1454 Registered: 5-2007  |
It would seem that modern Adventist, by that, I mean pampered city dwellers where your utilities are 'piped into' your home have lost track of "real life". Much of my early life was spent growing up in mill camps in Northern California and Southern Oregon. There was no question about "lighting a fire" in the stove. Nothing happened until a fire was going. Actually, we normaly 'banked the fire at night' but somebody still had to put wood into it or there would be no breakfast. And, 'running water' refered to me, who did the running. At times, we lived on farms. Taking care of the stock is not what I would call "rest", but is must be done. Going out to the outhouse in the middle of the night could be no joy, so we normally had 'honey buckets' near our beds. Sabbath or no, they had to be emptied. Years later, I worked in a veterans hospital in Napa Valley. Much of the aides were SDA. On Saturdays, they would do as little as possible and were highly resented by those who had to pick up the slack. P.S. It is still snowing....three inches and rising. Phil |
