| Author | Message | ||
| Mommyk Registered user Username: Mommyk Post Number: 249 Registered: 4-2007  |
Leigh Ann...you brought up some very good points with my Mom. Oh how I pray her veil would be removed and she could finally "get it". Unfortunately, she has told me that all formers are just "confused". Apparently I'm working for the devil so I assume she thinks that of other formers as well. You, being a "never-have-been" must just be completely deceived! ;) Thank you for your comments, though. (*Maybe you should tell my mom that you are not a former. She might take you more seriously!*) I really enjoyed reading the thread. I held back commenting myself because I knew that it would then become personal for my mom. Just another reason for her to feel persecuted by me. *sigh* (For those who have no idea what we're talking about, it was a thread on Facebook under someone's status update that stated the discussion.) Anyway... River...LOL!  Jeremy...even as a child I didn't understand how they could pay us a quarter for "working" for them. The commandment says that not even your "maidservant" was to work. And of course they weren't supposed to spend any money. We, as SDAs never did. Had to fill up the car with gas before sundown on Friday and we never bought anything on the Sabbath unless it was an emergency...like we needed medicine at the pharmacy because someone got sick. Again, it is so funny that WE had all these special Sabbath rules and my parents would shake their head at our Jewish neighbors because THEY were under the Law!!! Ha!! | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1392 Registered: 6-2006  |
Kristen, I let you Mom know that I'm a regular old Christian. It's interesting, I know that the SDA church teaches that Sabbath started in Eden, but I've never had one say to me that Abraham and Noah kept Sabbath. That's a new one on me! Is that just your Mom, or is it a common belief? (((HUG))) Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2639 Registered: 10-2004  |
Leigh Anne, Adventism teaches that the Sabbath started in Eden, and that it's been kept by God's "faithful followers" ever since, including Abraham and Noah. They even point to the following verse as "proof" that Abraham kept the Sabbath: "because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws." (Genesis 26:5 NASB.) Jeremy | ||
| Mommyk Registered user Username: Mommyk Post Number: 250 Registered: 4-2007 |
AS far as I know it is a common SDA belief. They teach that all the Patriarchs kept the Sabbath. But after they became slaves in Egypt they "forgot" about Sabbath keeping for a few hundred years because as slaves they were not able to observe it. They say that's why God said "remember" the Sabbath day when he gave the law at Sinai. Twisted logic! (((HUGS))) back attcha, Leigh Ann! (Message edited by mommyk on March 15, 2009) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1393 Registered: 6-2006 |
Kristen and Jeremy, That's a lot of assumption! Paul wrote about the ancestors not receiving the law until Moses came along - either in Romans or Hebrews (can't find it!). What do SDA's say about that? Do they believe that Paul was confused? ??? Leigh Anne | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 247 Registered: 8-2008 |
In the context of Galatians 3, he means the Law came 430 years after Abraham was given the promise of of the Messiah and justified by his faith therein (see v.6-9,14). | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1395 Registered: 6-2006 |
Galations ~ No wonder I couldn't find it in Heb. or Roms. Thanks Bskillit! What is the SDA standard answer to that enlightening verse? | ||
| Mommyk Registered user Username: Mommyk Post Number: 251 Registered: 4-2007 |
They say that's when God gave Israel the "Written law" - the 10 Commandments written in stone and all the Law of Moses. Before that the 10 C's were passed down by "word of mouth". The thing that most SDA's don't "get" is that God has given each of us a conscience. Our conscience "tells" us what things are good and what things are bad...our morals. People who have never heard of the 10 C's (like tribes in the heart of the Jungles of Africa or wherever) know by their conscience that it is wrong to kill, steal, etc. People then have the choice to listen to their consciences or not. That's how Cain knew he had done something wrong when he killed Abel. That's how Joseph knew it was wrong to commit adultery with Potipher's wife. My mom likes to use those examples to try to prove that 10 C's have always existed. Do people really need the 10 C's to know right from wrong. NO! Anyway, that's one point I would have shared with my mom, Leigh Ann. You can share it if you like. *hint hint* | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1397 Registered: 6-2006 |
Well, I did mention that a lot of other religions have similar statutes, but that certainly doesn't mean that we are obligated to follow their laws. I look at the 10 C's like that. They were given to another race in a whole other time and space and we are NOT obligated to follow them even if we agree with them. I'll do my best. I would just turn that around and say that moral laws have always been in effect, outside of ceremonial Sabbath keeping. The NT reiterates every law except Sabbath, as does the time before Moses and the Children of Israel. The Sabbath day keeping belongs to the Children of Israel (and that's NOT us!) me | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 521 Registered: 11-2005 |
I had been watching that Facebook discussion for quite some time now. I've been hesitant to jump in because...well, the thought makes me tired! But I finally couldn't resist any longer. There were some key points and texts that I wanted to share that were just burning in me! Bottomline is Adventists don't understand what it means to be born again. They have no concept of what it means to truly live by God's Spirit who actually indwells us! I remember I used to equate the Holy Spirit as my conscience--sort of this "good force". But that Spirit is a Person! God HIMSELF! He's not merely our conscience. Even atheists have a conscience. But to live through God's Spirit IN me...it takes my breath away when I think about it. And THAT, unfortunately, is what most Adventists can't get. Until they understand what it means to have a dead spirit that is made alive through Christ, a discussion about "living by the Spirit" will always seem enigmatic to them. "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14. I'm praying for your mom, Kristen. Grace | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1398 Registered: 6-2006 |
Grace you brought up some excellent points! Thank you for that. I realized that with SDA's "commandment = Sabbath", and wanted to point out to Kristen's Mom that Abraham's commandment was circumcision. However, since you understand what it's like to be SDA, I think your point is much more valid. I'm praying too, Kristen! Leigh Anne (Message edited by grace_alone on March 16, 2009) | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 248 Registered: 8-2008 |
If the only reason I did't kill someone is the 10 C's say "Thou shalt not kill," then I would be a terrible person indeed. | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 239 Registered: 1-2007  |
Bskillet, I agree with what you said (If the only reason I did't kill someone is the 10 C's say "Thou shalt not kill," then I would be a terrible person indeed.) A good example would be Charles Manson, now the claim is that he did not actually commit the murders but commanded his followers to do it and they did. Now if he wasn't there and didn't actually commit the murder, does that mean he is innocent? Not at all because it was his sinful heart that has planned it and coerced it. Now let me take this to a whole nutha' level. Now to the people out there who idolize Charles Manson and wear shirts with his picture (And I have seen them), etc. What does that say about the condition of their hearts? Do they actually have to kill to been seen as a law breaker? Absolutely not, because we know if we break 1 we are guilty of all. Not to mentioned Jesus clearly taught us the real intention of God's law. If you even hate your brother without cause you are guilty of murder. It's all about the condition of our hearts. Many will say Jesus came to magnify the law and show us how to keep it or that it can be kept. Now I will say He certainly did magnify the law, But what He did is show us the real condition of our hearts and the fact if we think we have kept the Law, He showed us that the Law is much more than external commands, and that the Law is a representation of God's character through His life, and at the same time reveals just how sinful we are before our Holy and Just God. It should only cause us to die within and humble ourselves to God in repentance and accept the gift of Grace through the blood of Jesus. Paul (Message edited by pnoga on March 16, 2009) | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 524 Registered: 11-2005 |
Yes, Leigh Anne--you're right about "commandments" essentially meaning the Sabbath for Adventists. It always comes down to the Sabbath... It's totally amazing to me how clear it is to me now that Adventists have made a complete "idol" out of the Sabbath. Well, I don't think Carolyn liked my response . Galatians 3 is super clear that there was a beginning (430 years after Abraham) and an end (until the Seed--vs.19) to the Law. This whole argument that Adventists like to say, "God never changes" is such a moot point in the Sabbath issue because it was NEVER about the Law to begin with. It has always been about FAITH. It was that way with Abraham, and it's that way with us. So yes, God has remained consistent! Facebook has been an interesting experience for me. EVERY Friday night, it's so interesting to read my Adventist friend's status updates which go something to the effect of, "Praise God it's Sabbath and I can have a day of rest", or "I don't know how people live without the Sabbath", etc.... I just want to hug them (or sometimes shake them!) and say, "You can have this rest all of the time--24/7!" Last Friday, there were about 25 references to Sabbath out of my friend's status updates (which is a lot considering only about 60 of my friends on there are Adventists!). My husband made an interesting insight as I discussed this with him. He said because Adventists don't understand we have spirits, their idea of "rest" is only limited to the physical. They have no concept of spiritual rest outside of merely resting your body. Grace | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1864 Registered: 8-2004  |
Snowbordingmom's husband said, "because Adventists don't understand we have spirits, their idea of "rest" is only limited to the physical. They have no concept of spiritual rest outside of merely resting your body." I say, Wow! Ain't that the truth! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6629 Registered: 3-2004  |
"Snowbordingmom's husband said, "because Adventists don't understand we have spirits, their idea of "rest" is only limited to the physical. They have no concept of spiritual rest outside of merely resting your body." I say, Wow! Ain't that the truth!" I have been studying Galatians and how the Holy Spirit is in us, lives in us, 24/7. I have a difficult time wrapping my brain around that as I am such a sinner. God indwells us with His Holy Spirit to change us. Knowing this I want instant change, like right now. I know that is not how God does it. I am just impatient. As for the SDAs!!! They have no concept of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the spiritual rest we have every day. Thank you Awesome God. Diana L | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1610 Registered: 4-2000  |
Paul, Without God's moral laws, whether written on our hearts or found in sacred Scripture, there is no sin, no gospel, and no saving grace. Since nine of the Ten Commandments are restated several times in the New Testament, it is most prudent that we should reverence God's declared will for our lives. What specific fault do you find with the nine commandments reiterated in the New Testament? Also, how should believers regard these nine commandments, from the Decalogue, that are restated several times in the New Testament? Does the indwelling Spirit cause us to ignore or obey these nine directives? Is being aroused to obey these nine commandments somehow evil for the Christ-follower? Although God's law convinces like a mirror, restrains like a bridle, and arouses us to obedience, the chief design of God's law, however, was to guide and remind believers of God's norms. Additionally, the law also shows people how unworthy they are and leads them to distrust human ability. Indeed, the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ is predicated upon the horrible news of the law's condemnation of sinners. Law and love are friends not enemies! The whole Bible is law and gospel, and the two are so vitally related to each other that an accurate knowledge of either cannot be obtained without the other. Faith in Christ releases people from bondage to law, whether the Mosaic law, or the law written on the hearts of Gentiles (Romans 2:14-16). The ethics of the OT law are the same as those of the NT gospel. Believers before and after the Cross are saved by grace alone (Gen. 6:8). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 240 Registered: 1-2007 |
Dennis, Are you saying that we are to keep the 9 commandments as they were on the stone tablets? I do not disagree with God's laws, my point is that no man can keep them perfectly as required by a Holy, Just and perfect God. My point was that for us still subjected in sinful flesh cannot keep the requirements of the law. We cannot be justified by the law, for us it can only show us the condition of our heart. When we are broken, humble and repent and turn to the Lord he causes the change in our heart. I give no credit to my flesh. I live by the spirit. I don't think I have said that God's law isn't good. I know I do not measure up to it. As I stated in regard to Bskillets quote "If I say I do not kill because the 10 commandments say so, I would be self righteous I would be a liar because no one has kept God's Law. If I live by the Spirit my heart is changed because of God and I am reminded by Jesus' words not the stone tablets, that I should not even hate my brother without cause, If I call my neighbor a fool I am in danger of Hell fire. If I use the 10 commandments as my moral guide than lusting after a woman in my heart I am not commiting sin. No but I know that it is wrong not because the stone said so, but because Jesus said so. The New Testament is clear I am no longer under the Old Covenant which is the 10 commandments. What is reinstated under the New Covenant is much harder and I in no way under my own flesh can live up to them. Now by the power of God through the Holy Spirit all things are possible. I'm sorry if you misunderstood me, I guess I wasn't clear enough in my last post. (Message edited by pnoga on March 16, 2009) | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 416 Registered: 1-2006  |
Hi Paul Sorry I'm so late mentioning this . . I read it a couple days ago and just haven't had time to comment, but I read that in the old English that was used when the King James was written, the word pleasure meant "your occupation, how you earned a living" so when it says in Isaiah to avoid doing your own pleasure on the sabbath it really just meant to avoid doing the work that you do for hire during the week. I think that it was also a custom to divide people into categories in pubs, etc, based on their class or occupation, hence the expression "what's your pleasure." If you answered that you were a farmer, you went to eat in the company of other farmers, a scribe with other scribes, etc. Has anyone heard of this? It's been a long time since I read about it, but if it is true if might shed a little light on how the King James translators understood the original meaning. Bob | ||
| Tkmommy Registered user Username: Tkmommy Post Number: 102 Registered: 1-2007 |
Snowboardingmom... I have made this observation on my facebook status updates as well. Sooo many are "relieved" it is sabbath come Friday. I read one conversation on a friends update going on about how busy their Friday was...so much to do for sabbath! I commented that all sabbath was was an excuse to do 2 days worth of work into one...and it all started with that manna stuff. No one bit at that, but I wonder if it left them scratching their heads. I also have been wondering if sabbath is really a selfish issue sugar coated as something else. I used to use that as a sabbath argument to non-sabbatarians who thought it awful I "couldn't do things" on Saturdays...I would say no, it's really great not to have to thinks about work, laundry, cleaning, shopping, paying bills, or anything of that sort one full day of the week. It's true! Who wouldn't want a day off every week without the pressures of everyday work...? That is the focus of these status updates...how is this spending time with God...they are just giving him lip service for having a vacation day. It's selfish in a way, but they would consider it heresy if you said it that way. |
