| Author |
Message |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, December 22, 2000 - 4:05 pm: |     |
Hello Max,
I firmly believe that once we BELIEVE in our Lord Jesus and His living, dying and resurrection for us, that we become His POSSESSION. To Him only do we answer to with regards to sin. He leads us with His Holy Spirit in what is right to do or what is wrong to do. If we chose not to listen to the One that Purchased us, we sin against our Master. We belong to Him now. We do not belong to the world. We do not have to answer to the world either except to give Glory to God, as ALL Glory is due HIM and HIM only.
If I steal from my neighbor, I would return the stolen item and apologize to the neighbor, for a few reasons. One, it is what my Master tells me to do. Jesus is my Master, He owns me and leads me to do this. By doing what Jesus has instructed me to do, I am also giving Glory to His Name because most certainly, this neighbor that was betrayed by me, would wonder how crazy I am. Think about it, how many people would go to the one they offended, here on earth and not only return the stolen item but apologize and then let them know that Jesus our Lord told me to do this. This makes an impact on others. They begin to think about this God we serve.
In no way would I say that we should steal in order to later show others the Glory of God! That would not be right in any way, shape or form.
But to answer your question on sinning and to whom are sinning. It is God. To our own Master we shall stand or fall.
Gotta run and take a shower and call Maryann!
GOD Bless you,
Denise
P.S. I have, of course, more to say on all this too but now time has caught up on me..ciao! |
George
| | Posted on Friday, December 22, 2000 - 9:51 pm: | |
To all,
What a wonderful conversation we have going
here. This is exactly what I wanted to here.
It looks like we can't totally rely on our
conscience after all, as we don't really
know when the teachings of man leave off and
the teachings of the Holy Spirit take over.
Perhaps this is where we have to rely on the
blood of Christ to cover the things we can't
figure out and do wrong anyway.
While I don't believe we have to work our
way to heaven, I think He expects us to do
all in our power to do what we know is right
and not do what we know is wrong. We being
human and having a conscience that is in
part taught by man are not always going to
get it right, and like I said, I think this
where Christ's blood lets us skate by. To be
sure, Christ's death paid for our sins past,
present and future, and when we are "saved"
we are able to take advantage of this gift,
but I think He expects us NOT to sit back
and say, "I'm done, there is nothing more I
have to do, He did it all."
To do that would allow me to be the most
wicked person and get away with it scott
free, after all He paid for everything.
Denise,
I have wanted to reply at length to your
posts, but they leave me speechless, and
that doesn't happen to often. They fit
together like that well oiled machine I
mentioned earlier, all the parts working
with each other and making sense.
George |
George
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 7:53 am: | |
Another way we could say Christ's blood covers us when we can't tell the difference between man taught and Christ taught conscience is, "He slaps salvation on us whether we want it or not."
I can accept it in this case.
George |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 1:17 pm: | |
In Scripture the blood of Christ never covers
sin but always cleanses it away completely
and for all time past, present and future. In
Scripture it is only the blood of animals ("bulls
and goats") that covers sin. |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 1:19 pm: | |
Do we need "the teachings of man" at all? Isn't
all we need the teachings of Scripture and the
Holy Spirit? |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 1:39 pm: | |
The most fundamental argument (in my
hearing and reading) that SDAs use to
maintain their version of the gospel is this: If
we rely totally on Christ's blood, then we can
go out and do anything we want (meaning sin)
and we'll still be saved. Implication: Christ's
blood isn't REALLY enough. We need to
perform good works and avoid evil works.
Here's what I see as wrong with this SDA
picture:
1. It denies the all-sufficiency of Christ's
cleansing -- not covering -- blood past,
present and future. And it adds human works.
2. It shows a lack of faith in the power of the
Holy Spirit in the life to keep true believers in
grace till Christ's second appearing. And "that
which is without faith is sin." Therefore, the
SDA attitude is sinful and will result in their
eternal loss as long as they continue with
such a distrustful attitude.
3. It shows a lack of the knowledge of
Scripture, for Romans 7 clearly sets up the
dilemma with sin that the Christian faces
every day and Romans 8 solves the dilemma.
But from my looong experience in Adventism
Romans 7 and 8 taken as a problem-solution
unit is off their radar map. |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 2:00 pm: | |
I think that if we DON'T say, "I'm done, there is
nothing more I have to do, He did it all," then
we are indeed eternally damned.
For the truth of Scripture ALWAYS is, "I'm done,
there is nothing more I have to do, He did it
all."
And any deviation from this scriptural truth is
legalism, pharisaism, and Whitism.
It is absolutely true that the true believer is
under OBLIGATION (Romans 8) to take up
her/his cross and follow Jesus, but the good
works performed by the Christian have ZERO
effect upon her/his salvation or damnation.
If the Christ-claimer "does a Hitler" in effect, for
example, then his evil life is only "by their fruits
shall ye know them" kind of evidence that s/he
NEVER HAD SALVATION IN THE FIRST
PLACE.
It is NOT evidence that s/he had salvation then
lost it by failing to perform good works and by
instead performing evil works.
For the Son God has ALWAYS known, from
before the foundations of the earth were laid,
who is his and who isn't. |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 2:04 pm: | |
We have a scriptural example of "the most
wicked person" and getting away with it scott
free by reason of the fact that He paid for
everything: the thief on the cross. |
Jimm
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 4:01 pm: | |
Hi Everyone! May you all have a very merry Xmas.
I have enjoyed this web site very much since I
discovered it several months back. Because my computer sabotages me with a vengence I haven't been able to post the questions I had-I would spend a long time composing what I thought was a rational question and then have it devoured b4 I could send it. But not to worry-somewhere in the thread some body would get around to articulating what I had been thinking ( actually better than I could ) and all would be discussed. Max- I have some bad news for you- you are an answer man. Even though you don't 'fess up to it, you have a way of pulling together scripture and concepts that are beyond people that have spent years reading the Bible and misinterpreting it. Thank you for sharing your scriptual knowledge and insights. Now, if I don't get sabotaged I will post this. |
Cindy
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 4:38 pm: | |
Jimm, Welcome very much to this site! May you be encouraged in your journey "in Grace" (our assurance in Christ!) by being here...
And also, encourage us with YOUR thoughts and questions!
Grace always,
Cindy |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 6:06 pm: | |
Hello and Welcome Jimm,
You too, have a wonderful Christmas! I hope to read more from you and you are right about Max, although, let's not tell him <wink>. He indeed has insight and answers that help me a great deal.
God Bless you Jimm,
Denise |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 6:31 pm: | |
Thank you, Jimm,
Your post reminded me of the bit of verse by
that Cindy quoted several days past:
We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
--T.S.Eliot, from FOUR QUARTETS, "Little
Gidding," chapter V.
Welcome to the website, and I hope you post
many-a-more,
Max of the Cross |
George
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 8:58 pm: | |
Max,
I am sure you knew I would bite on your
posts. I have been over this many, many
times but I don't know how to get what
I am talking about across without being
misunderstood.
From the tone and content of your posts
you seem to think I am saying we have
to do some "works" to get to heaven.
Nothing could be farther from the
truth.
Picture a pendulum if you will,
swinging from side to side. Now picture
a works oriented salvation way over on
one side and then finding out that
salvation is by Grace. What happens
next? The pendulum swings way over to
the Grace oriented side. Over on this
side everyone is so afraid to admit
they have to do anything, for fear that
they will be working, they run the risk
of sitting back on their butts and
saying it does not matter what I do I
am saved.
STOP!!! right here and quit formulating
a response and listen with an open
mind.
Did you see what I said? "Sitting back
on their butts and saying it does not
matter what I do I am saved." Did you
notice the chronology? They are already
saved so anything they could possibly
do would not save them.
So now what? All the fire is taken out
of your argument against my post.
Like I said now what. Surly you don't
think we SHOULD TRY to do what is
wrong. What is the opposite of trying
to do wrong? Trying to do what is
right!!
STOOOOOOOOOOOOP. Remember I am already
saved now. The restriction against
working is off. I'm saved already. It is now O.K. to do something. (Tell others about Grace,
surly we don't WONT want to do bad
things so it would be ok to DO good
things.)
Just about everyone of you that has
posted has at one time or another
wanted to start doing something or stop
doing something (isn't that working).
REMEMBER WE ARE ALREADY SAVED so the restriction
against doing something is off.
In one of your posts you said do we
"need the teaching of man" referring to
statement I made. You can't possibly
think I meant that we need them instead of the teachings of Christ. As you
know we get them whether we want them
or not when we are young.
I think most everyone understood what I
meant when I said the "blood of Christ covers
the things we can't figure out and do
wrong."
Whether you like it or not you are seen
by many as the "answer man." In this
position you have the "power" to change
peoples mind about a post they have
just read by "blasting away" with
scripture, especially if you have
misunderstood the post.
These days, there is an unfortunate need
for everything that is said to be
politically correct. In the future if
you have a NEGATIVE comment or one that
will seem to be negative, please ask me
for clarification first. Give me a
choice between what I said and what you
think I said. If, after we have agreed
on what I said, you think I am wrong,
blast away with my blessing. To do
otherwise is a disservice to me, if not
to the other readers. O.K.? :-)
George |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 9:23 pm: | |
Hi George,
I can't find anywhere in Scripture any
"restriction against doing something." So if
there is no "restriction against doing
something," then there is no "restriction
against doing something" to turn off.
I'm probably misunderstanding you again. Let
me know, ok? |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2000 - 10:29 pm: | |
Hello George,
If it's any consolation, I am NOT politically correct in most everything I say or do. This really grinds alot of people too. But then, the "politically correct" people grind me to no end.
Just wanted you to know, that's all.
God bless you George,
Denise
P.S. I didn't understand what you were trying to say in this post of yours this time. Except the 'politically correct' topic.
Your sister in Christ Jesus |
George
| | Posted on Sunday, December 24, 2000 - 12:27 am: | |
Denise,
Dec 22 - 9:51 PM I said;
To be sure, Christ's death paid for our sins past,
present and future, and when we are "saved"
we are able to take advantage of this gift,
but I think He expects us NOT to sit back
and say, "I'm done, there is nothing more I have to do, He did it all."
By this statement I made it abundantly
clear the things we were to do were
AFTER we are saved, and that Christ paid for our sins and didn't just cover them.
December 23, 2000 - 02:00 pm: Max said
this;
I think that if we DON'T say, "I'm done,
there
is
nothing more I have to do, He did it
all," then
we are indeed eternally damned.
This statement could only be talking
about Grace or salvation BEFORE we are
saved, in which case he is right as
before we are saved, THERE IS NOTHING WE
CAN "DO" TO BE SAVED. Christ did do it
all.
But this is not what I am talking about
and EVERY time I even hint that we might
have to do something everyone that
responds jumps in and says, "Salvation
is free, we are saved by Grace not
works. It is as if they think we never
have to do anything even after we are
saved.
I get so tired of having to explain
again and again and again and again, I
know we can't to anything to be saved.
The example of the pendulum comes from
psychology. When ever we get over a
habit we swing way over to the other
side. We are not just happy we quit, we
rudely insist that everyone else has to
quit too. After a while we see that all
we do is make everyone mad at us so we
shut up and the pendulum has swung over
ti the other side but hot as far. Then
we decide we can't just sit around and
not say anything so we nicely tell every
one they need to quit. The pendulum has
just swung back but not as far. This
keeps happening until after a while the
pendulum finally comes to rest in the
middle and everyone around us can rest
too. It is only then that we can be
truly effective at getting people to
quit.
most everyone that jumps on what I am
saying has swung over to the fanatical
side of Grace, never realizing there is
or allowing for a life after we have
accepted it.
I know someone is going to say we should
be fanatical about Grace, not realizing
that fanaticism is, going you know not
where but redoubling your efforts to get
there
If I have said it once I have said it
100 times, I know salvation is free, I
know I can do nothing to save myself.
And still OVERTIME I even hint that we
might have to do something sometime
someone like Max pops up and says
something like we are going to hell if
we DON'T sit back and let Christ to it.
After we are saved we don't have to
worry about "works", we can work all we want to. Right? |
Max
| | Posted on Sunday, December 24, 2000 - 4:40 am: | |
Dear George,
^^"I think that if we DON'T say, 'I'm done,
there is nothing more I have to do, He did it
all,' then we are indeed eternally damned."
"This statement could only be talking about
Grace or salvation BEFORE we are saved, in
which case he is right as before we are saved,
THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN 'DO' TO BE
SAVED. Christ did do it all."^^
No, George. I took it to mean AFTER we are
saved. And what I mean is, There is nothing
the true believer can do to maintain her/his
salvation AFTER s/he is saved.
All the maintaining has already been done --
once for all time and once for all people -- on
the cross of Christ.
All of the good choices made by the true
believer AFTER salvation are totally ineffective
in the maintenance of her/his salvation.
And all of the evil choices made by the true
believer AFTER her/his salvation are totally
ineffective in the loss of her/his salvation as
well.
God's true grace applied to the true believer at
the time of his/her acceptance of salvation
AND afterwards is the only thing that
maintains her/his salvation. Good or evil
choices are IRRELEVANT after salvation.
This is the difference between the true gospel
and White-ism.
Under the true gospel, God knows in advance
who belongs to him and who doesn't. Those
who belong to God WILL strive to make good
choices and avoid evil ones. But all that
striving and good-choice-making has
absolutely NO EFFECT on his salvation. The
reason? S/he has been sealed by the Holy
Spirit at the instant of acceptance of salvation.
Under White-ism the sealing takes place only
after the believer falsely so-called achieves
sinlessness with the help of Christ such that
s/he no longer needs Him to mediate
between him/her and the God who is a
consuming fire.
The false Christ-claimer's choices after his/
her pseudo-salvation will be evil because God
hated her/him before s/he was born.
Take Hitler, for example. I don't know whether
he ever fancied himself a Christ-claimer or
not. But supposing he did, then his evil
life-choices proved that God hated him before
he was ever born.
The real Christ-claimer's choices after his/her
real salvation will be good because God loved
her/him before s/he was born.
Take Peter, for example. He loved Jesus, but
Jesus prophesied that Peter would deny him
three times before the rooster crowed the
break of day. God's Word cannot be broken,
and so therefore Peter had no choice but to
helplessly fulfill the prophecy that said he
would commit this horrible sin of denying his
Lord. But after sinning Peter "went out and
wept bitterly." God also knew in advance that
Peter would do this too. And so therefore God
loved Peter in his mother's womb.
And Peter's ultimate life choices proved God's
predictive "loving in the womb" to be accurate.
On the other hand, God hated Judas in his
mother's womb before he was born. And
Judas also fulfilled Jesus' unbreakable
prophecy in that he, Jesus, prophesied, "The
one who has dipped his hand into the bowl
with me will betray me. The Son of Man will go
just as it is written about him. But woe to that
man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be
better for him if he had not been born."
Later, the next day, early in the morning, after
Judas learned that Christ was to be crucified,
he went out and hanged himself. He was
helpless to do otherwise.
This is all truth as it is in Scripture. It goes
against our "I am sovereign" mind-set of
White-ism.
But you, George, God has loved before you
were born. How do I know? Because Scripture
says, by their fruits shall ye know them. And
you are earnestly on this website seeking
truth. Not because you of your own free will
have chosen to do so, but because God has
chosen you.
For Christ said, "You have not chosen me. I
have chosen you." And he means George.
Max of the Cross |
George
| | Posted on Sunday, December 24, 2000 - 6:50 am: | |
Max ,
Well I'm glad 'you' finally figured out
what 'you' were talking about. :-))
(Don't tell anyone I said this, but
maybe I should ask what you mean before
I blast away. I am really serious, DON'T
TELL ANYONE.)
Now, I think I understand what you
believe predestination to be too. When
ya get right down to I think we agree,
but I will have to think about it some
more.
Thanks for taking the time to figure it
all out, and explain to to me.
Would that I could really believe the
last part of your post.
George |
Cindy
| | Posted on Sunday, December 24, 2000 - 7:19 am: | |
Dear George, I think it is GOD who must have set that hunger and quest for knowing HIM in your heart...
I have this text by my kitchen sink to read each morning when I stumble out to get my orange juice and coffee...:-))
Zephaniah 3:17:
"THE LORD YOUR GOD IS WITH YOU,
HE IS MIGHTY TO SAVE.
HE WILL TAKE GREAT DELIGHT IN YOU,
HE WILL QUIET YOU WITH HIS LOVE,
HE WILL REJOICE OVER YOU WITH SINGING.'
Grace always,
Cindy |
Max
| | Posted on Sunday, December 24, 2000 - 8:49 am: | |
George,
^^Would that I could really believe the last part
of your post.^^ Isn't your concern true evidence
that God has chosen you? Otherwise, you
wouldn't even care.
Blessings always,
Max of the Cross |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Sunday, December 24, 2000 - 1:24 pm: | |
Good afternoon George,
Now I understand what you were saying. Thank you. It could have been just me last night in my not understanding because I was very tired but thought I'd ask anyhow. Seems it was good though because now you and Max have some sort of understanding too! :))
I'll add my thought to this 'nothing I can do' thread. When attending the sda Church, I felt condemned everyday. It was awful. Talk about a spiritual darkness surrounding me. For awhile, I actually thought of suicide in that time. I simply could not believe that I was saved because of all the do's and don'ts that I couldn't possibly keep up with. I couldn't be 'sinless!' And God knows I tried too.
I thank my Lord my God for leading me forth to hear Him and Him only. Not the Church leaders. God showed me in His Word that He had saved me and then He began to show me the heresies that the sda Church was trying to convince me of.
I am grateful as one could be that I have, we all have, a God that loves us so.
Bless the Lord, oh my soul!
God Bless us all, everyone,
tim |
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