| Author | Message | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 152 Registered: 10-2008 |
Just looked through my mail and I have the March issue of the Adventist Review - ie. Adventist World. One particular article caught my eye, before putting the magazine in the recycle bin . . . http://www.adventistworld.org/issue.php?issue=2009-1003&page=22 Let me just quote: It may come as a surprise that in spite of her prophetic status, Ellen White did not have much direct influence over the development of our doctrinal beliefs. For example, the seventh-day Sabbath doctrine came through the influence of Seventh-day Baptists; and the doctrine of conditional immortality came principally through George Storrs, a member of the Millerite movement. The doctrine of the sanctuary, the preadvent judgment, and the significance of the seventh-day Sabbath for the end time came through pioneers such as O. R. L. Crosier and Joseph Bates. The Millerite movement even addressed the three angels’ messages. Does this mean that Ellen White did not have any influence in the development of Seventh-day Adventist doctrine? Not at all—her influence is to be found in indirect ways. When did they start using the phrase "conditional immortality" for soul sleep? Why are they now using the word 'immortality' in their doctrine of soul sleep? Or is this something else? This article is again proposing that "as a general rule" the distinctive beliefs of the SDA church came through intense Bible study . . . Seventh-day Adventists hold the prophetic gift of Ellen White in high esteem. However, neither God nor the pioneers deemed it necessary to develop doctrines directly from her writings, visions, or personal direction. Doctrines were developed from intense Bible study. Before reading this article I had relistened to Paul Carden's FAF weekend speech. He clearly states, "There would be no Seventh-day Adventist Church without Ellen White." Thought some of you might be interested in the afore mentioned article and the excellent apologetic summation of Adventism by Paul Carden. I am now going to read my Bible  Keri | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 332 Registered: 2-2006 |
That quote is some spin! What I learned is that after these fellows crawled out of the woodwork with their pet theologies, Ellen would have a 'vision' to confirm them. IJ, Sabbath, health, etc. It is one reason she was all over the place, through the decades. Blown from so-called doctrine to doctrine. Even Justication by Faith blew her back and forth, when others brought it up. The SDA church, as a whole, is not much different today. There was no real, "intense" Bilbe study, only gullible people or worse. Reading the true history of Adventism on expository sites (including FAF) opens one's eye a lot. There are so many legends, lies and myths. Colleen, has there been a Proc article on the SDA lies, legends and myths? (There seems to be so many!) Without reading of them, one just does not know because we were taught them from the cradle. Ellen and her spirit binds and wraps it all up, no matter what they say. God bless you in your seeking the true God, Keri. You ask some very good questions most of us have asked. We all have needed answers. Cathy2 | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9505 Registered: 12-2003  |
Cathy, that's a good idea! I'll see what can be done...! Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 153 Registered: 10-2008 |
Cathy2, Thanks for the encouragement . . . I was VERY ANGERED when I read the above article. This type of anger is new to me . . . I'm a pretty easy going, phlegmatic person . . . People who are upset usually seek me out . . . BUT since my journey out of Adventism began - I find I get angry with things that never set me off . . . some is false anger and I must submit it to the Lord - but I think I'm becoming acquainted with righteous indignation - something new for me . . . I have searched and read enough to know that SDA doctrine is solidified in EGW and as Paul Carden said, "There would be no SDA church without EGW." The thing that angered me the most with the above article was this "conditional immortality" which totally reaks of deception . . . if it is referring to soul sleep, WHY put immortality in the jargon - totally deceptive . . . UGH. I just thought some of you might be interested in the continued perpetuation of lies and the p.r. spin machine. Thanks for letting me vent, Keri | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 154 Registered: 10-2008 |
P.S. Just so you have a reference in which to understand my comments . . . I have thrown out the "soul sleep" doctrine after studying scripture. Keri | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 334 Registered: 2-2006 |
Keri, I sure do know about that anger!!! Now, I feel it when my kids are the brunt of SDA abuse. Otherwise, I feel "Oh well", ignore it, and try to pray for them. I was more intense after I first learned of the true Christ and what he did. First, I was mystified that, after being taught about "Jesus loves me" all my life, when I finnally GOT IT (in Galations and Romans), they spoke around it with the law or, worse, ignored my joy completely. It took me years to settle down. Mostly, because SDA family were around me so much and I had young children that I had to shield from the lies about God (my sis is an SDA fanatic. Even some SDA's think she is weird); constant damage control, which was frustrating. Every time my mom would tell the kids something which Ellen spouted, I had to counteract it. (This is not to say that you will have my battles for years) They say that anger is always a second emotion, born of fear, humilation or pain. I think we formers are feeling a lot of pain. We are not afraid of them, most of the time, and we get used to being humiliated by thier self-righteousness (All in the Bible faced that). We feel the pain of their dismissing Christ and to ourselves, as well. I think the blasphemy against Christ and the shear shock of that ends up the worst pain. All I know is to bring it to Christ, pray for oneself and for them (whether i feel like it or not). I have seen prayer help. Not change them out of Adventism, yet, but dial them back a bit. God shuts their 'lion's mouth', so to speak. When it is a general thing like that article or something within the GC, I just feel sick to my core at the deceptions. Adventism separates people from Christ. I felt that 30 years ago. I feel it just as strongly today. It is very much anger-inducing! What they do and say is worse than just wrong; it is life or death of souls for generations. Take the anger to Christ; He'll sort it out with you. Still learning and leaning, Cathy2 | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 360 Registered: 7-2004 |
This is just so typical! They have to try to "distance" themselves from EGW in order to make themselves appear mainstream Christian. They like to think that everything they believe is from the Bible and can be proved without EGW. So it is just double talk. It is saying "Oh, all of these doctrine come from intense Bible study". I'm sorry that is ridiculous! It is just as Cathy2 says, they found a new doctrine and EGW confirmed it by having a vision. Simple as that. It is a salad of doctrines thrown together and mixed up and is starting to wilt under the harsh lights of true Biblical study! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4323 Registered: 9-2006  |
Bb, Yep. | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 277 Registered: 4-2005 |
When I think of all the threats EGW has written about those who don't keep the Sabbath etc., most SDA's don't even know who originated those ideas--and lots of them think EGW was "shown" that these were true--if they don't want to claim her, good for them, but aren't they talking out of both sides of their mouth? It totally amazes me!!! But it shouldn't. BTW my talk with my pastor went well, he agreed to remove the one copy of Desire of Ages from the library and has a much better idea how to approach SDA's--he was approached some years ago by an SDA and expected him to come to his church and attend worship and talk about a few things and he never did- the SDA had sought him out at some sort of neutral place with questions--decided he would not expect it to be that easy again. I have been collecting verses about deceit, from don't deceive yourself, to don't be deceived--And we really do need to be careful--The more I think about it the more I feel that the New Covenant contains so many reasonable answers and gives us a firm foundation to recognize deceit when we see it. Peggy | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 425 Registered: 2-2008 |
"conditional" immortality goes right along with their whole "CONDITIONAL" theology... i.e. God's "conditional" love... the IJ should probably be called "conditional preadvent judgment" based on the condition of whether or not you are in good standing and if you keep the "conditional" Sabbath. ~vivian | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1843 Registered: 8-2004  |
The idea of 'conditional immortality' is not just a carefully presented doctrine of the SDA church, but is also presented in "Conditionalist Faith of our Fathers" by LeRoy Froom - a work that attempts to show that conditionalism is a valid view that has had proponents across the broad span of history. | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 155 Registered: 10-2008 |
Hmmmm . . . This may seem to come from left field in this thread . . . but this morning I was reading in Numbers 15:42-50 (A part of my BSF lesson) . . . The passage is about the Israelites who gathered in opposition against Moses and Aaron. God protected Aaron and Moses and He/God sent a plague to the assembly . . . Then Moses told Aaron to take a censor and run into the midst of the plague to make atonement for the people. Aaron, who Israel was coming against - ran into the midst of the carnage - to help/make atonement and save the very people that had just come against him . . . WOW. . . When I read the the p.r. spin machine of the Adventist system . . . I get angry . . . but I don't always desire to run into the midst of the fray and make atonement for the people that have caused such heresy . . . Let me see if I can be clearer . . . I desire that God would place in me a Moses and Aaron type heart for those that are so blatantly wrong . . . Not that I blink an eye on heresy and say, that what is written is ok . . . but rather I kneel and pray and or run into the fray with the gospel for those who are so blinded and spiritually dead. Only God can give me a heart like that! Cathy2, you wrote, All I know is to bring it to Christ, pray for oneself and for them . . . You also said, Take the anger to Christ; He'll sort it out with you. . . . Good counsel, ESPECIALLY after I just found out that the Adventist system messed with Hymns! Hymns!!! How can you change the words of Hymns, too! http://lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation03_05.html Look at pg. 8 Keri | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9508 Registered: 12-2003 |
It is a sort of "rule" that the hymns of an organization reveal the beliefs of the organization. As with almost everything else, Adventists "hid in plain sight". They didn't merely write new hymns (although early Adventism did have a lot of "Advent hymns", some of which are still in the hymnal), but they used traditional hymns and subtly changed the words so everyone grew up thinking they were singing the great hymns of the faith—but they actually weren't always singing them as they actually are written. Colleen | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 763 Registered: 11-2007  |
I remember being taught church history and they would show slides to illustrate. A bunch of men studying around a table with their Bibles, and Ellen White there in the midst of them - with some ray of light from heaven. I specifically remember being taught that when they got stuck, she would ask God, and she would get messages about subjects she didn't even understand herself. Maybe my memory is faulty, but this is what I recall.. Even if she didn't invent them herself, she upheld them through her visions. Where would the sanctuary doctrine be now if she had not confirmed it was true with a "direct" message from God? Then, after she confirmed them, she used chains of guilt and fear to tie her followers to them. Without her - it would have fizzled and died I think. (I just posted earlier about this on the Ezekiel thread) Plus that list doesn't acknowledge the umpteen rules she invented on her own.. I wasn't aware of the issue with the hymns. I have friends in certain circles who have changed the words to the song "Blessed be the Name of the Lord." Instead of singing "He gives and takes away.." They sing "He gives and makes a way..." If this wasn't a direct quote from scripture, I wouldn't mind so much, but they had to make it fit their view of God. I don't have patience with that no matter who is doing it!! | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 340 Registered: 2-2006 |
Sondra, Your memory is right on. We had a whole year of studying Ellen White for Bible class in SDA school. I completely recall what you described and more. We were taught to be in awe. Cathy2 | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6595 Registered: 3-2004  |
8thday, It seems I have read that she wrote that everything she wrote came from God or something like that. I do not have her books any more so I cannot look that up. Diana L | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 157 Registered: 10-2008 |
AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! I am in tears . . . I am so angry!!! Since finding out that the SDA system changed the words of the great Hymns in their hymnbooks, I thought I'd check some literature books I have from grade school. I have my literature books from 7th and 8th Grade (don't ask me why)- . . .I have Book I, Book II, and Book IV. Many chapters are Ellen White and then some are stories where EGW is thrown in . . . there are a few literature vignettes - but not all the literature vignettes are fully "up-and-up". Get this . . . A chapter called, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord Our God, The Lord is One" by Ann Morrison . . . The chapter starts with: "Deut. 6:4 is the first scripture which a Jewish child is taught." In that first two paragraphs the author expounds upon Deut. 6:4 . . . Yet, what the author writes is how important it is to keep the fourth commandment. The author attaches the 4th commandment to Deut. 6:4-6 . . . Deut. 6:4-6 (The Shema) says nothing of the 4th commandment, It says, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts." Ok, Ok GET THIS!!!!! Seventh-day Adventist Advanced Reading Program Book II. The first page before the contents page is supposed to be a famous poem. Yet it is truncated and reads:
Here is the real poem in its entirety:
I missed REAL LITERATURE growing up!!! I was brain-washed - I was in the system my whole life. I've been robbed! No wonder it is hard to "exit" this cult! I wonder what else has been done! Keri | ||
| Angelcat Registered user Username: Angelcat Post Number: 68 Registered: 11-2008 |
What hymns were changed? | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 159 Registered: 10-2008 |
Angelcat, #21 in the current SDA Hymnal, Immortal, Invisible, God Only Wise has been changed. The current SDA Hymnal reads the second half of the 4th verse as: All laud we would render: O help us to see 'Tis only the splendor of light hideth Thee. The correct rendering is: But of all Thy rich graces this grace Lord impart, Take the veil from our faces the veil from our heart Interesting that the hymn editors would remove the phrase about removing the veil from the heart - (2 Cor. 3:14-17). Look up 2 Cor. 3:14-17. Pretty amazing how scripture talks about those that focus on the Old Covenant have a veil over their hearts. Lastly, I don't have time, but I went to # 108 Amazing Grace. In the SDA hymnal the 3rd verse says, His word my hope secures . . . In the original hymn, Word is capitalized - meaning Jesus. And they totally removed stanzas #5 & #6 from the SDA hymnal. Check it out for yourself using http://www.cyberhymnal.org/ Yes, this is so sad - so sad . . . but God redeems everything . . . I MUST believe this. And I must turn my anger over to the Lord, so that no bitter root develops. God is SOVEREIGN and Jesus is LORD, and the Holy Spirit, is fully GOD in us. Praise God that I am set free. Keri | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4338 Registered: 9-2006 |
I don't want to pull the tread off but subject I have just got to make a quick comment something Peggy said in her post. Here is the bit: It totally amazes me!!! But it shouldn't. I have heard formers make this statement so many times I absolutely wouldn't have a count. What amazes me is that you all are so amazed. Not making anything of it, it just amuses me. Back to the subject at hand now. Keri, the anger won't stay around forever. Keep your chin up. Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Ephesians 4:27 Neither give place to the devil. Interesting text for you. Praying for you. River | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 363 Registered: 7-2004 |
River, I think an analogy of how former's feel might allow you to see how it is possible that we are amazed at some things. Let's say the us formers are all standing on a big "magic" carpet that we are told is on a firm foundation and is the only way that we will "make it to heaven". This carpet is where we have crawled around as babies, spilled linketts on during pot-lucks, and clung to when we are frightened. We are told that if we step off of the carpet or even hang around with those of you who are not on the carpet, we run the risk of being forever lost. Some of us just close our eyes and thank the Lord that we are safely on this carpet and we aren't going to be lost like you who are standing out there in the world watching us. We know that soon we will be the focus of the whole world and our choice to stay on the carpet no matter what is a matter of eternal life or eternal death! Some of us start to see some holes in the carpet and while some patch them up or just plain ignore them, we formers decide to check into this problem of the holes and start researching whether this carpet has the magic that is claimed. We see that in fact the carpet is not on a firm foundation but on top of a sandy beach or a black hole or quicksand! Through this study and with God's help we realize we have to get off before the rug is pulled out from under us! We jump onto solid ground and fall to the ground, amazed that what we believed was solid all this time is not going to give us the eternal life we are so desperately hoping for! You are standing there on solid ground, a bit amused and amazed that we didn't realize the carpet was a sham! We are happy to be here with you but we still have to pick ourselves up and dust ourselves off and relearn everything we have been taught. Maybe that picture might help you to understand, and thank you for reaching out your hand to help us up and guide us away from that black hole! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4339 Registered: 9-2006 |
Bb, I think I am getting it. I will try another analogy. Lets see. You walk south to north toward the grand canyon in the dark. There is little or no light to see by. All of a sudden a hand reaches out (Jesus)to yank you back, daylight comes swiftly and you look into the maw of that canyon, hundreds of feet straight down you see a tiny ribbon that is the Colorado river. You look off into it,shaking with amazement and say "I dang near fell into that!" Am I getting somewhat of a spiritual picture here? I believe I understood your good analogy. River | ||
| Lifeanew Registered user Username: Lifeanew Post Number: 203 Registered: 10-2007 |
Bd I just read this to my husband and we thank you so much for this great analogy. This is right on. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 364 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes, River that is another way to look at it! I can't stand heights so that would be one scary scenario! Also some of us are thick headed and it feels more like slow motion than a quick yank. We study and study to try to make sense of it when all we need is a Savior! Thank you Lifeanew, I'm glad you could relate! | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 764 Registered: 11-2007 |
I concur 100% | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9511 Registered: 12-2003 |
Totally, Bb and River. That is exactly right. There's no way to explain the breathless, disoriented feeling of discovering that what we thought, believed, and trusted to be reality was completely fabricated. One layer after another becomes exposed...and we find that, indeed, every single thing we believed and valued and grounded us is false or non-existent. Angelcat, Read the article "Tell Me The Old, Old Story...Uh Which One?" at this link:http://lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation03_05.html It will give many examples of hymns that have been changed--but it is not a comprehensive list. Colleen | ||
| Angelcat Registered user Username: Angelcat Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2008 |
Colleen, tha t was a very intersting article. I remember my parents being very upset at the mention of trinity in the new adventist hymnal. I've been frustrated many times at verses that were elft out fo songs in the new hymnal. I love playing the piano, so I've always had song books that were non-sda as well as the SDA ones. Just never really stoppped to think about what doctrine was in the song. I'll have to check some of them out at my parents house. (I got rid of my SDA song books. Too many scary judment songs) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 683 Registered: 7-2007 |
It's also like a boat slowly floating downstream on a river. Then somebody shows me a map that shows that there is a giant waterfall down-river and that the boat and everyone on it will be dashed to pieces when it gets to the waterfall and goes over the edge. By the time the boat will get to where the passengers can see the river ending at the waterfall and the heavy mist rising from the mass of falling water, it will be too late for the people on the boat. The boat is the Adventist church and most of my relatives are on it. I feel greatly relieved that someone showed me the map and I got off, but I feel like I'm running along the shore hollering to my relatives to get off before it's too late, but they refuse to believe me. The Bible makes it clear that the only way to salvation is through believing on Jesus (Acts 4:12), but SDAs have the wrong "Jesus." Their's is one that is investigating everyone and who didn't finish the work on the cross. |
