| Author | Message | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 679 Registered: 7-2007 |
Perhaps a good question to ask an Adventist is a hypothetical question such as.... Say a person who has been born again, who has BEEN SAVED, is in a store and happens by an unattended and open cash register. Say this person had been a thief before they'd gotten saved and now they get tempted as they go past the register. Seeing that no-one is looking, they take a hundred dollars and hurry out of the store. Say this person is so anxious to get away with his loot that he doesn't watch where he is going as he starts across the road and a car hits him, killing him instantly. The question is: will this person be saved or lost? A Christian who understands the Bible, will say: of course he will go to Heaven because when a person accepts Christ, ALL of his/her sins are forgiven - even future ones (see 1st John 2:12, Ephesians 2:8,9, etc.) Someone in a cult will likely say: no, because he didn't have a chance to repent before he was killed. That's the basic difference between Christianity and the cults. The cults all say: do, do, do, don't, don't, don't. Christianity says, it's DONE! Now, before someone reading this misunderstands; I'm not saying that a Christian should deliberately commit sin. No, no, no. Part of becoming a Christian is receiving the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is going to be changing that person. A person isn't saved by those changes that the Holy Spirit makes in him or her though. He/she was saved when he/she accepted Christ and His FINISHED work. | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 408 Registered: 1-2006  |
Asurprise, Here's something I posted awhile back . . . “If justification is something that is an ongoing process or is something that can be lost and gained again, then it is hardly the imputation of the righteousness of Christ! Is the righteousness of Christ something that can be obliterated or destroyed by the action of men? Is it but a temporal thing that has to be propped up and maintained by the feverish activity of creatures? Is one who stands robed in the righteousness of Christ liable to fall repeatedly from this position? Is one forgiven and lost, forgiven and lost, in a seemingly never ending cycle? Surely not! One who has been justified stands before God uncondemned and uncondemnable--not because of what he is in himself, but because of what Christ is in him. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The reason is clear: all who are “in Christ” partake of His righteousness and have been declared free from the curse of the law, and therefore there can be no possible grounds of condemnation for them. Have they ever transgressed the law? Christ has borne their penalty. Have they failed to love God as they should? Christ has loved the father perfectly in their place. The Judge has declared them just. His Son stands in their place, perfectly righteous. Who can possibly bring a charge, then, against God’s elect (Romand 8:33)?” from 97,98 of the book The God Who Justifies by James R White (obviously not Ellen’s husband!) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4309 Registered: 9-2006  |
Amen Bob. | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 224 Registered: 1-2007  |
Here is something to go along with what Bobj said, Christ's righteousness is imputed to us even though we did not earn it, we are given this righteousness by Faith in Jesus. Because we all fall short of the Glory of God and all break God's law, the law does not do us any good. The law is good, we are not. We are in sinful flesh. In God's mercy He gives us a way to have a close relationship with Him, and that is through Jesus Christ, not the law. The law only pointed to Christ in that it for the time revealed God's character, but it also revealed ours, which is sinful. But now that Christ has come He is God's exact representation and the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him. Jesus reveals God to us, and at the same time reveals our character as we look at His life, we are still sinful. But God is not a minister of sin. We can now come boldly before the throne of God through Jesus Christ. In fact the only way we can lose salvation or be judged as sinner is by not repenting and coming to Christ in Faith. Here is Jesus' own words as to how we will be deemed sinners Joh 16:5 But now I am going to Him who sent Me. And not one of you asks Me, Where are You going? Joh 16:6 But because I have said these things to you, grief has filled your heart. Joh 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is advantageous for you that I should go; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I go, I will send Him to you. Joh 16:8 And having come, that One will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment. Joh 16:9 Concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; Joh 16:10 and concerning righteousness, because I am going to the Father, and you no longer see Me; Joh 16:11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to tell you, but you are not able to bear now. Joh 16:13 But when that One comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will guide you into all Truth, for He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will announce the coming things to you. Joh 16:14 That One will glorify Me, for He will receive from Mine and will announce to you. You see if we reject Jesus than we are in our sins. That's it nothing more. We still sin because we are still subjected to the sinful flesh until we are redeemed from our sinful flesh. We must submit to the Holy Spirit and God will complete His good work in us. It's a wilderness journey, but we must remain in Christ, and allow Him to change our hearts. The sin in our flesh still wars with the spirit, and the spirit wars with the flesh. We must put our heart and mind on the spirit. When we take our minds off the spirit we give in to our temptations and than we sin. But we are still saved, as long as you remain in Christ. The Holy Spirit will convince us of Righteousness, why? Because Christ has gone to the Father, and we are imputed this righteousness by Faith in Jesus. Oh and off note Judgment, Jesus says in the verses above because the ruler of this World is already Judged. So much for 1844 folks. Judgment already happened. Either you are in Christ or you are not. There are two kind of people in this World: Repented and in Christ, and unrepented and in Sins. Let's all choose God's Gracious gift to us and remain in Christ. Peace in Christ Paul | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1441 Registered: 5-2007  |
Asurprise, Salvation is an act of Jesus Christ, not the doings of the person who receives salvation. Since there is no action of any person who can undo what God has done (Romans Chapter 8), the question is resolved around one simple issue. Is the person in your example sealed into the body of Christ? If so, yes, he is saved. At one time, not to many years ago, I sinned in such a way many people questioned if I was a Christian. It was a very hard time and the Lord had to set me aside from normal life while he restructured who I was at the time. As I grew from this experience, one of the early on things I was assured of was that my Savior had never abanded me and provided evidence that even in this terrible time he was right at my side. While I had assurance of salvation; there were consequences and more to come if I didn't repent. Phil | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 680 Registered: 7-2007 |
I used that example because when I was an Adventist, I felt that as long as I had just repented and wasn't doing some "sin," I "had salvation." (I couldn't say that I was saved because Ellen White said not to say that.) The "having salvation" wouldn't ever last very long though and I'd have to repent again. Anyway that's how I thought as an SDA. I had no idea that when a person believes on Jesus ("...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..." Acts 16:31), they are saved; and when they believe, they are sealed WITH the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 1:13,14 "...having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance...") The reason I wasn't saved when I was an Adventist is because I couldn't really put my weight down on the Bible saying that a believer has "BEEN SAVED." (Ephesians 2:8,9) Not being able to really accept Jesus sacrifice for me because of Ellen White saying that no one should say or feel they've been saved, meant that I REALLY WASN'T saved! | ||
| Borninchrist Registered user Username: Borninchrist Post Number: 158 Registered: 1-2009  |
I felt the same way under Adventism. I often thought if I got into a car accident (or any other accident) and killed instantly I would not be saved, because I sure must have sinned knowingly or unknowingly, after the last time I prayed and asked for forgiveness. I was hoping if such a terrible thing ever happened I would be given at least 10 seconds to ask God to forgive me and be renewed in Jesus before I die. I even spoke to my wife about and we both felt the same way. What a twisted thinking I inherited from Adventism. Even now sometimes I get similar thoughts. I praise God for His mercy and I thank Him every day for taking us out of this cult. Now I have a burden on my heart for those left behind and not even realizing they are victims. George | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 333 Registered: 2-2006 |
Phil, Your words--"There were consequences and more to come if I didn't repent."--are something we all should keep in mind as Christians when we sin or are about to sin. Thank you for pointing that out. Did God abandon me when I grossly sinned as a younger woman? No. Did he stop leading me, year by year, to His Gospel truth? No. Did He stop having grace and mercy on me? No. But I had to live and work through the consequences, regardless. It made me honor God more in my humiliation and knowledge as a true sinner. Some of my sins drove me to Him like nothing else would have. It made me grateful to him because I was weak and ignorant. One chooses...Self and pride or Christ. Complacent, self-righteous Christans do not learn nor change much about themselves, life, sinfulness, nor God. I have seen that in my own SDA upbringing and self and in SDA's in general. There may be an insecurity about Salvation, but the complacency and self-righteousness is an infection throughout themselves, individually or as a group. We sin; we repent, make amends, and try to do better with and through the Grace of God. I cannnot judge another's eternal destiny. I only know that we must depend on God's Grace, mercy, and strength, no matter what. As an SDA, I had no concept of that. I would imagine that the hypothetical Christian thief would either repent and make amends (the Holy Spirit's work in him--Fruits-- if he is there to begin with) or the thief would allow the infection of sin to continue, grow, make excuses and affect his connection to Christ. After that, it's up to God, imho. I truly have no idea what happens when someone goes that far. Biblically, there are ones who sear thier conscience and depart from the Faith. "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils: Speaking lies in hypocrisy: having their conscience seared with a hot iron: Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." (I Timothy 4:1-3)" The beginning of repentance and keeping close with God is in the thoughts and heart. Those roots dug out. If not, one may act on sinful thoughts and emotions and have a really hard time. And because of the confusion and mind-split which results, we may get confused about God, too. Yes, we may be saved, but kind of by the skin of our teeth, so to speak-- Paul mentioned something about this--1Cor. 3:11-15 So where did the stealing begin? A long time before the act. The more we seek God and He finds us, the less we will overtly sin. But it begins in the heart. Either our heart seeks God or our hearts seek our own. The Kingdom of Darkness or the Kingdom of Light. As we more and more grow in Christ and Christ in us, we check those sinful desires before they bear damaging fruit. A weak Christian may very well steal (and all other sins). That is when we pray for them and forgive as we have been forgiven. We do not give them excuses; we give them Christ. Cathy2 | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4317 Registered: 9-2006 |
A Christian can just drift away from God through neglect of prayer and Bible reading and fall into sinning that would gag a maggot. We need to stay close to God 24/7 and he will stay close to us. I know he will never leave us nor forsake us, this is in his word and his word is true and real. While we may grow weak, weary and seemingly undone, he will not forsake us. It has been some 37 years since I first read that promise and he has kept it, I figure if he kept it that long and through what I have went through, he is a promise keeper. River | ||
| Angelcat Registered user Username: Angelcat Post Number: 67 Registered: 11-2008 |
I'm really not sure when I would say I was saved. I've been baptized twice, and recommitted my life to God many times. I always felt like it was something that had to be doen every time I sinned pretty much. I will say thet even the years I went toally wild in ky kate 20's, I felt God was still witgh me. I couldn't understand why at all. Everything I had been taught told me He couldn't be, because I certainly knew better than what I was doing. I just hoped I lived long enough to repent. Which I did, obviously. And dicoverd I did way better at "obeying" when I wasn't motivated by fear. I'm not trying to earn Heaven. God made us, and He knows what what is best-life just goes much better when you follow God's plan. | ||
| Spudw Registered user Username: Spudw Post Number: 81 Registered: 8-2008  |
I've been reading Martin Luther's commentary on Galatians these last few nights. He makes the point that righteousness by faith is a passive righteousness whereas works of the law are an active righteousness. One relies entirely on what Jesus did and the other on what you do. He's pretty adamant about which one is the one that has any chance of working. He's also got a pretty strong opinion about trying to mix the two. One would think that those who claim to be the heirs of the Reformation might heed his advice. | ||
| Borninchrist Registered user Username: Borninchrist Post Number: 159 Registered: 1-2009 |
You know what got me sucked into Adventism? I believe the pastor who gave me bible study and baptize me was not a regular SDA pastor. Indeed he was always teaching me salvation by grace. The bible study guide we used was his own. Here's a portion from the study we did on the two covenants:
And this same pastor was deeply hurt when I left the church, but he never opposed me once. I'm sure he read my blog and particularly the paper I wrote on the OC Law, which created uproar from all that is Adventist around me. Come to think of it, I never heard this pastor teach or preach the sanctuary doctrine either. It's not him but the quarterlies and the church members that polluted my mind and made me realize who the SDA are. The most I've heard him say about the 10CS was "we don't keep the law to be saved, but our actions show that we're saved" - this implied of course actions = keeping the 10CS (after all he is an Adventist pastor). I actually pray for this pastor all the time. I think the guy might be there for the job and he never shared with me, but perhaps he has struggles with his church doctrine as well... We can never know what's in people's hearts. George (Message edited by borninchrist on March 07, 2009) | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 410 Registered: 1-2006 |
George Your post reminded me of SDAs emphasis on keeping the commandments as a sign that we're "safe to save." The old covenant showed how hopeless it was for us to keep the law. I used to think that Adventists just didn't understand the new covenant, but have come to realize that perhaps many have missed the basic lesson of the old covenant as well. Jesus really is the stumbling block! Bob | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 411 Registered: 1-2006 |
A little more on this topic . . . The Holy Spirit, speaking thru Peter, Acts 15:10, tells us that neither we (believing NC Christians) nor our forefathers (those OC believers who looked forward in faith to the promised Savior) could bear the law. In plain English, we can't keep the law, then or now! The Christians knew this, and rejoiced when it was lifted--see verse 31! Bob | ||
| Borninchrist Registered user Username: Borninchrist Post Number: 160 Registered: 1-2009 |
Very true, Bob. Even a statement such as "we keep the 10CS not to be saved, but because we're saved" makes no sense at all... No matter how hard the SDAs try talk their way out of it, keeping the law is impossible for any human being. George | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9513 Registered: 12-2003  |
Indeed! Furthermore, Hebrews 7:12 says that the change in the priesthood means a change in the law. The 10 Commandments are not the law we live by. Colleen | ||
| Borninchrist Registered user Username: Borninchrist Post Number: 165 Registered: 1-2009 |
Just to continue my thought above... If keeping the Ten Commandments is how Adventists show their love towards God, then NONE of them loves God, because they all break the law. (Rom 3:20 and Rom 3:23). George | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6603 Registered: 3-2004  |
It just occured to me that the SDAs, the majority, do not even know God or who He is. They know about Him. Diana L |
