| Author | Message | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 96 Registered: 10-2008 |
Friends, I deeply desire to be rooted in Biblical understanding (I haven't been studying long). I know that I am far behind many of you . . . But this is my proposal . . . 1.) Take the words shared in a previous thread that cause formers reactions and unpack those words Biblically and see what is true scripturally and where the "untruth" came from. (RID ourselves from the untruth) 2.) RULES  . . . I know we all hate um . . . But to unpack the words you can only use the Bible - NO outside sources or commentaries . . . 3.) You may share briefly the source from which we got our Adventist understanding of the word(s). I deeply desire to know what the Bible says, but I also know my understanding is so twisted by EGW writings, that I'm not sure what is scripture and what is EGW . . . I need your help And I think by seeing scripturally what is "true" I'll become more grounded: So . . . "Game-on"? JRT P.S. If some of you get in a "snit" with arguing a finer point of an understanding or verse . . . I'll climb through the computer and sit on your head (and none of you know how big I am! ). . . We can certainly disagree . . . but no attacking . . . | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1433 Registered: 5-2007  |
Jrt, We gota meet sometime. Whenever I debate, my goal is to learn. Meaning me, the one who needs to learn. If you are ever in the Puget Sound area, come and visit and share what the Lord is revealing to you. But, consider that I am an ex-Marine, before you try and sit on my head. P.S. What's "unpacking"? Phil | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 97 Registered: 10-2008 |
Example: And we can certainly explore facets of these words and how they have affected us and our understanding. Sorry to do this, but we have to look at the SDA understanding to know what is wrong scripturally. My SDA understanding of the "plan of salvation". a. God decided to create the world and invited "Jesus" into the decision. b. It made satan jealous that God elevated Jesus instead of him - so satan started a war in heaven. c. Satan deceived 1/3 of the angels and they were cast out of heaven to planet earth. d. Adam and Eve sinned and so God decided to save them by sending His son to die = Plan of Salvation Scripture: Rev. 12: 7-9 "And there was war in heaven, . . . " Is. 14:12-14 "You said, I will ascend to heaven . . . I will make myself like the Most High" Is the Isaiah passage referring to satan? . . . Sooooo, . . . for some of you what is it about the words "plan of salvation" that causes you to go UGH? JRT P.S. Sorry, guys I'm pretty tired as I write this so this isn't quite coming out the way I had thought . . . | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 98 Registered: 10-2008 |
Phil, You are cracking me up!! My comment was mainly to cause a (lol) response. I'll remember that you are an ex-Marine. Blessings, JRT | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2602 Registered: 10-2004  |
JRT, doesn't the SDA understanding also include everything after "d."--including the "remnant" "perfecting their characters" (i.e., keeping the 10 Cs/Sabbath)? Jeremy | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 100 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jeremy, Good point! Thanks for pointing that out. Man, I hadn't thought of that. So much "stuff" packed into that little phrase for us who were raised SDA. On another thread . . . Someone, mentioned that they understand plan of salvation to mean the gospel . . . I think they are a never-been SDA. I'm beginning to see why it is SO HARD for an SDA to find a local church to attend and why it is SO HARD to stick it out . . . You go to church and your hearing similar language, BUT totally different meaning and you are lost with what is being said . . . Plan of Salvation . . . Help me with this question . . . Could Jesus have "lost" the gift of salvation to us by sinning while He was on earth? Or is that some convaluted understanding I have from EGW. I remember something about Jesus didn't know if His sacrifice would be acceptable when He lay dying on the cross . . . that He couldn't see through the portals of the tomb - because sin was so offensive to His Father. That is all EGW isn't it? Man, it is going to take years to undo all this "junk" and get a clear picture of Jesus!!! JRT | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 283 Registered: 4-2007 |
"Christ On Probation – For a period of time Christ was on probation. He took humanity on himself, to stand the test and trial which the first Adam failed to endure. Had he failed in His test and trial, He would have been disobedient to the voice of God, and the world would have been lost." (SDA Bible Commentary, Volume 5, p. 1082; Signs of the Times May 10, 1869) There is no possibility that God can fail, therefore Christ is not God. "His example declares that our only hope of eternal life is through bringing the appetites and passions into subjection to the will of God." (The Desire of Ages, page 122, paragraph 2.) Christ our example! Of course this negates grace and renders His sacrifice unnecessary. This particular heresy is used to promote sinless perfectionism as the only hope of salvation. “In the last generation (of Seventh-day Adventists) God gives the final demonstration that men can keep the law of God and that they can live without sinning. God leaves nothing undone to make the demonstration complete. The only limitation He puts on Satan is that he may not kill the saints of God. He may tempt them, he may harass and threaten them; and he does his best. But he fails. He cannot make them sin. They stand the test, and God puts His seal on them. Through the last generation of saints God stands fully vindicated.” (M.L. Andreasen The Sanctuary Service, Review and Herald, 1969 printing, pp. 318-19) ‘Modern’ Adventists have morphed perfect obedience to the letter of the law (living without sinning) into the spirit of the law, which is just another way of stating that ‘God will reward me for the sincerity of my good intentions’, in general they do not accept that they born totally sinful and that all their ‘righteousness is as filthy rags’, instead they believe that their watered down ‘doing what Jesus did’ constitutes a righteousness acceptable to God and makes them ‘safe to save’. Repudiate anything that impinges on ‘saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone’! John Douglas | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 102 Registered: 10-2008 |
John, Thank you for your post above and the quotes. . . Very good . . . this is what I had hoped to see by looking at the words that cause us as former Adventists some angst. So this whole "plan of salvation" understanding from Adventism denegrates Jesus as fully God. Mercy! No wonder those who are born again former SDA's have angst when they hear these things . . . The Spirit testifies to us how wrong it is (because the Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus) - even though we might not cognitively understand or put a finger on why it is so uncomfortable. JRT | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9456 Registered: 12-2003  |
John, thanks for that awesome summary of the reality of the SDA assumptions within their understanding of "the plan of salvation". So true!! JRT--you're absolutely right. When we are born again, the Holy Spirit gives us unrest even when we do not cognitively understand what's wrong because the SDA words and concepts LIE about Jesus. For more on this topic of Jesus and whether or not He could sin, etc etc, see the article "Discovering the Adventist Jesus" in the May/June, 2007 issue of Proclamation here:http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2007_MayJun.pdf Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2604 Registered: 10-2004 |
Jrt wrote:
It's just more heresy from EGW, and another denial of Jesus' divinity. God cannot sin. Jesus is God. Therefore, Jesus could not sin. The Bible says that God cannot be tempted by evil (James 2:13-14).
Yep, it's all just more EGW junk, and further evidence of the SDA's counterfeit "Trinity." Jeremy | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 104 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jeremy, Help me some more . . . not trying to argue, but trying to untwist it all . . . If Jesus could not sin - then why did the devil tempt Him in the wilderness 3 times? . . . What was that all about? If Jesus is God (please forgive me for saying it like that - not meaning to be blasphemous) and can not sin - then what is the deal about satan and his tempting Jesus in the wilderness? Just looking to go deeper and unsort it all. JRT | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2605 Registered: 10-2004 |
JRT, The Bible says that Jesus "was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil." (Matthew 4:1 NASB.) This was not the devil's plan. This was God's plan. The word "tempted" can also be translated "tested." Jesus was tested and shown to be sinless--absolutely and perfectly sinless--and incapable of sinning. The devil threw his best temptations at Jesus, and yet He was not even tempted by them. He had no inclination or desire or temptation to sin (which would have been sin in itself), and He was not capable of sinning. In other words, it was to show to all of us His sinlessness--not to see whether He could withstand the testing/tempting or whether He would sin. The sacrificial lamb had to be inspected/tested to make sure it was without spot or blemish. In this, way Jesus was shown to us to be the Lamb of God, without spot or blemish. Jeremy | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 105 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jeremy, Wooooo, thank you for responding . . . This was very helpful . . . After many years of indoctrination . . . it is going to take time to untwist it all. Wish I could purge myself once and for all of the heresies in Adventism. I'm learning to wait on the Lord as He shows me one thing at a time. Thanks, JRT | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 109 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jeremy, How does James 2:13,14 refer to "God cannot be tempted by evil?" I think you might be referring to a different text . . . James is about works and law . . . "What good is it that he has faith without works" . . . Don't think that is what you meant to write . . . What text says God cannot be tempted by evil? Also, how do you do that quote box in the forum . . . that is really helpful to separate things out . . . ? I will probably start another thread with unpacking the "Conflict of the Ages" phrase . . . the whole evil against good motif that SDAism purposes . . . Look for it coming up soon, JRT | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2606 Registered: 10-2004 |
Jrt, Sorry! The correct reference is James 1:13-14. I kept thinking "James 2" and then even after looking it up, I wrote the wrong reference! Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4269 Registered: 9-2006  |
The James 2 verses got me to thinking some deep thoughts also. So thanks anyway Jere. It really made my day to think deeply about these scripture and what they mean about the 'law of liberty'. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2607 Registered: 10-2004 |
Oh, Jrt, I forgot to answer your other question. Sorry! If you click on "Help/Instructions" at the bottom of any page of the forum, then click on "Formatting" it will show you how to quote and do other cool things. Jeremy | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 118 Registered: 10-2008 |
Jeremy, Thanks - you have been SO helpful . . . Can't thank you enough for sticking with the forum and helping those of us that are searching and seeking and wanting a clear understanding of Truth. A scripture text for you and a try at the formatting:
Blessings, Keri |
