| Author |
Message |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 117
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 8:12 pm: |     |
Jeremy and Phil:
MERCY! I am undone! Who am I, but dust . . .I read the texts you posted in a previous thread and have been blessed with understanding and tears . . . The bigness of God - My, how Adventism has diminished God . . .
This understanding will give me a whole new perspective as I read scripture . . . It was so important that I "get" this . . . WOW.
Thank you both for taking the time to post . . . I know that you have found these truths long ago - but thank you for sticking with the forum to share with us who are searching and seeking and new born . . .
For those that may be lurking - the texts were: John 1:45-50, John 14:23, Matthew 18:20, Matthew 28:20, Ephesians 1:23, Ephesians 3:17, Ephesians 4:10, Colossians 1:17, Colossians 1:27, Colossians 3:11, and Galatians 2:20.
To think that God - the fullness of God - not just the Holy Spirit (as I thought in Adventism) - would choose to indwell me. Me! This gives an even SWEETER understanding of the New Covenant! Thank you Lord for the New Covenant.
Christ dying on the cross . . . was the one God - the Father and the Holy Spirit too? All were involved in our salvation? I just want to check again . . .
This gives new meaning to John 14:7 and John 14:9.
Thank you gentleman . . .
Keri
P.S. There still is incredible mystery behind this all . . . wow! |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 4276
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 4:51 am: | |
Quote: not just the Holy Spirit (as I thought in Adventism)
Keri, There is no inequality in the trinity.
Many people make the mistake of thinking of the Holy Spirit as an "It" or as a "thing" instead of a person.
He is a person or personage of God (trying to explain this here)he is not unequal or less than, God. He is not just a "seal" he is the very essence of God. By his presence we are sealed, but he is not a signet, he is the presence of the Godhead bodily dwelling in us.
I suppose I wasn't very good at explaining that, but suffice it to say that he is not an 'it' or tool or thing, but a person who has come to dwell in you, you can know him and look to him to help you.
Oh well, I tried. 
River |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 121
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 5:52 am: | |
River,
You did fine . . . I guess I was referring to the texts that indicated that Christ, Himself indwells us . . . And I had always separated the three out . . . Jesus did this, the Holy Spirit did that, etc. Maybe I am still incorrect in my thinking/understanding . . . But what I am understanding is that there is One God - a Being - the I AM . . . when scripture distinguishes or says Holy Spirit or Jesus . . . I must remember that the fullness of God is in that . . . When scripture labels it Jesus - the Father and Holy Spirit are also a part of it - likewise when scripture labels it Holy Spirit - the Father and Son are also in it . . . The trinity moves as one (This understanding really hits home to the Adventist difficulty with seeing God the Father as kinda authoritative and vindictive in the OT and Jesus as the "nice-guy" - sorry to use language like that, but don't know how to express it)- as you say River --equal ---Feel free to disagree or enlighten me - it is all still gelling.
I know I am studying with someone currently that is just about ready to jetison EGW - but our last conversation - they expressed dismay at the god (using little g- since it is a false understanding of god) of the OT - and how he seemed wrathful - killing off whole nations and then the NT -where Jesus is so compassionate to sinners . . . Their comment was isn't the god of the OT the same as the god of the NT ---How do you reconcile the difference between this angry god of the OT and the suffering god of the NT? That was their question . . .
Keri |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 463
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 6:06 am: | |
Keri
I don't whether or not you were asking this question...but I'll put this out there anyway. Perhaps others will answer it even better.
The question about the God of the OT vs the God of the NT, is one that I think alot of people wonder about at one time or another. I struggled with it for awhile myself. Here's the point I think people forget when pondering that though: As Paul writes to the Romans, all have sinned, there are none righteous, and all are under wrath. The God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT, but though people were given the promise of salvation, the salvation in Christ Jesus wasn't revealed until He actually came, and brought to light things which had been hidden since the foundation of the world. People get it backwards, they start in the OT and see judgment/mean God, then move to the NT and see Jesus=love. In reality, Jesus is what restores our standing with God. If we're not in Jesus as a believer and a child of God, then we really are still under wrath.
God is who He says He is, no matter our limitations on understanding. He is all knowing, fully Just (which gives Him the right to be wrathful), fully Merciful. Just because He's merciful and patient, doesn't mean that "out-weighs" His wrath. Both coexist equally because that is who He is. It is only in Christ Jesus that a sinner finds reprieve from the wrath, and has grace extended freely. In Jesus' shed blood is the remission for sins. We stand before the Lord in the robe of righteousness that Christ has provided...and God's wrath was poured out on Him on the cross, so that you and I can have mercy.
A little rambly...but hopefully my point was evident |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 464
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 6:29 am: | |
Another thing. The OT does provide all the "snippets" of who God is...but that is why we see "pictures" of God in the OT. Snippets of His wrath when He destroys entire peoples, or when a command is broken; but also pictures of His love and compassion as evidenced by His dealings with the people of Israel and His messages through the prophets.
We too often forget that the OT isn't stories for our benefit about the people. I firmly believe that everything in the OT is a beautiful picture of God, who He is, what His redeeming work is, and how He deals with us. It's all about Him. For example, I grew up being told that the story of Joseph was about living rightly even if it resulted in punishment. However, now I see that primarily the Gospel is told in that story. That Joseph is a type of Christ.
PS:
Just as an aside to the conversation, Mark Martin did a sermon on Joseph and Christ...here are 70 points from that sermon.
1). His birth was a miracle (Note: Joseph was the Firstborn of Rachel from a barren womb. It was a miraculous conception!)
2). His birth causes strife
3). His father was told by the Lord to secretly leave the land with his family
4). Outrage when his father fled with his family
5). His name means “Let him add” or “God will increase”.
6). He is clothed in a special robe
7). He was the special object of his father’s love
8). He lived in a position of honor with his father before sent to his brethren
9). He was a shepherd
10). He was hated for speaking the truth
11). He had knowledge that his brethren would bow down before him and they hated him for this
12). He was sent from his father’s side to go find his brethren
13). He found them camped at Dothan – “Law” or “Rule”
14). He was hated by his brethren (Jews) without a cause.
15). “He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive him.”
16). He was sold for the price of a slave
17). He was sold by Judah (“Judas” in Greek)
18). Judah felt great remorse
19). His garments were taken away and stained with blood
20). He was sent into Egypt (world)
21). His father gives him up
22). He is dead to his people for a long time
23). Meanwhile, he is made a Savior to the Gentiles
24). He was tempted, but shown to be without sin
25). He was condemned by a false witness
26). He suffered for the sins of others
27). Numbered with transgressors
28). He suffers with two criminals
29). One of the criminals is saved, the other is lost
30). He is taken out of the dungeon (grave)
31). He is the interpreter of the future
32). He plans with pharaoh how to save mankind
33). He was thirty years old when he began to serve
34). The famine affected the whole world
35). He is seated beside the throne and given all authority and he is exalted
36). He was dressed in fine linen – (A picture of righteousness)
37). He was given the title: “Sustainer of Life”
38). He is made a prince and a savior
39). He is the source of the bread of life for the whole world
40). Pharaoh commanded everyone “to go to Joseph” for salvation
41). Everyone will “bow” to Joseph
42). He was sent by God to save lives
43). He marries a Gentile bride
44). His marriage (a picture of the Rapture) was consummated before the 7 years of famine began
45). His marriage produces two children
46). Joseph’s brethren were drawn to him through their great time of trouble
47). He shows them the meaning of SUBSTITUTION
48). Their trouble brings them to Joseph’s feet
49). His brethren do not immediately recognize Him
50). He gives them all they need without charge
51). He brings them to repentance
52). God saves a remnant of Jews
53). At the end of their time of testing while Judah is praying, Joseph chooses to reveal himself to his long separated brethren
54). They mourn for what they have done to him
55). He forgives them for everything they had done because it was all part of God’s plan
56). He restores His brethren to fellowship with himself
57). He gathers all Israel to himself, to his land where they are protected for the remaining 5 years of the famine
58). He presents them to the King
59). He places Israel as the best in his kingdom
60). He buys all the land
61). He buys all the people
62). He delivers everything over to the King
63). He weeps when those he forgave doubt their standing with Him
64). He was a suffering servant
65). He was a Prince and a Savior
66). He had a gold necklace put around his neck
67). He was filled with the Holy Spirit
68). He was tender-hearted, he wept
69). Joseph was the one mediator between Pharaoh and man
70). All Pharaoh’s supplies were dispensed through Joseph |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 4277
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 6:37 am: | |
I have been driven many times to my knees by the overwhelming conviction
that I had nowhere else to go
--Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)
Ester,
Your rambly words does my heart so much good and brings rest and satisfaction to a mind that cannot understand the whole of it.
When I get to dwelling on the trinity my eyes roll back in my head and I begin to drool.
In trusting in his mercy, I find so much peace that confusion of mind must give way.
The Holy Spirit dwelling in me is the God of the old testament, so kind so gracious, so good, if you want to really know the God of the old testament he is as near as where you sit, even closer, since he has interweaved himself in our own weak body, never to depart, so we have eternity to get to know him. The God of the Old Testament reveals himself to us in the person of Jesus Christ and in the person of the Holy Spirit who dwells with-in us and is our constant companion.
River |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 122
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 8:17 am: | |
Esther,
Thanks for your post - and I especially enjoyed your "Joseph" list! I guess I wasn't really asking the question - but I wasn't exactly sure how to answer this friend who is studying. I, too, have wrestled with the God of the OT and the God of the NT and the seeming difference between the two. It is only since coming out of Adventism that I have been able to come to better terms with it all and to understand the "wrathful" side of God. As you said above, God is 100% Just and 100% Merciful. Just a FYI - I used the little g for god when referring to my friends understanding of the OT reference to God, because I don't believe she sees God fully yet - she sees the Adventist "god" . . . For that matter do I fully see Him, God, correctly - nope . . . I keep praying for a clearer understanding of Who He is. My lenses are slowly clearing and I'm slowly learning and will continue to learn until I see Him face to face.
Before, coming out of Adventism I guess I probably would have been labeled a "progressive" or "liberal" Adventist. Sometimes I wonder if being in that camp - almost makes it harder to sort through the disceitfulness and discrepancies found in Adventism . . .
Anyways, thanks Esther for responding - I now have a prospective in which to approach my friend again.
Keri |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2610
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 9:49 am: | |
Keri,
Yes, it does give everything a whole new meaning, doesn't it! To realize that Jesus is the one and only true God, and that He does actually indwell us as the Bible says, is still amazing to me!
Here's another passage that may be helpful:
quote:"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation." (2 Corinthians 5:18-19 NASB.)
Here's a wonderful song from the Gaither Homecoming videos that is especially meaningful for our background as former Adventists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLk8thFH6_Q Yes, Jesus IS "the only God Jehovah"! Hallelujah!
Jeremy |
Cloudy
Registered user
Username: Cloudy
Post Number: 110
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 11:58 am: | |
The phrase that gets to me is
"Jesus our example". |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9464
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 4:03 pm: | |
I agree, Jeremy!
I've been reading the book A Biblical Theology of the Old Testament edited by Roy Zuck. It's our textbook for our monthly "Building Spiritual Foundations" class with Elizabeth Inrig. In his chapter on Deuteronomy I found some amazing insights that helped me understand the "God of the OT".
Everything God did in relationship to fighting and killing people in the OT was in the context of His covenant with Israel. His Sinai covenant (including the Ten Word or Commandments which was the "abstract" of the covenant) was based on His being their sovereign King and Lord. Even their kings couldn't make up their own laws; they were to implement His laws/covenant because even they had a Sovereign.
Thus, His promise to Israel that they would take the land meant that He was responsible for being sure it happened. God Himself forbade Israel to attack or take Edom and Moab and Ammon because those lands had been directly assigned by God to the sons of Lot and to Esau--also, BTW, related to Abraham (Deut 2).
But the pagan nations in Canaan were there by illegal "squatters' rights" because God assigned that land to Israel. Therefore, as their Sovereign, God was responsible for removing them. These people were enemies of God, and thus were also enemies of God's people. God Himself, therefore, led the Israelite armies in battles to take the land God was responsible for assigning.
I realized as I read this that the notion of God being sovereign over the land meshed perfectly with Acts 17:26 where it says God determined where every man and nation would live and when they would be there.
The "God of the OT" was dealing, as Esther said, with people pre-cross but who were receiving the promises God made to Abraham and to them.
Moreover, God had specific rules for handling the enemies when captured. He would instruct Israel which people were to be killed and which ones were to be spared. He often spared the common people or the women and children but had the leaders who would be threats killed. Unlike the pagans, Israel was not to rush headlong into bloodbaths. They had to follow their Sovereign into battle...and often God did most unorthodox things, like sending the choir ahead of the army, etc etc.
God is WAY bigger and more protecting and loving than we ever thought. Those who read the OT and complain about a violent God are reading the OT outside the context of the covenant and of the times. God introduced His own sovereign power and will and protection, and He limited Israel's natural human impulse to destroy and self-exalt.
Colleen |
Foofighter
Registered user
Username: Foofighter
Post Number: 63
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 7:41 pm: | |
I thought I posted. Don't know if this comment will show up on some random thread here...but...
The phrase that absolutely drove me crazy, and there were many, as everyone has mentioned, but "Happy Sabbath" was the weirdest thing I had ever heard. Just can't stand it!!!!!!! |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 128
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 8:10 pm: | |
Foofighter,
I am in an environment where I hear that phrase quite often . . . I am responding with, "Have a nice weekend". Actually, I am in an environment where many of the words listed above are spoken frequently and in the context of Adventism . . . I had a conversation with a woman tonight who told me her son had left the truth . . . and she meant Adventist doctrinal truth . . . Not "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" which is Jesus.
I think I'm on a steady diet of tums
Keri |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 4283
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 3:41 am: | |
Foofighter
You and me both.
River |
Foofighter
Registered user
Username: Foofighter
Post Number: 64
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 9:16 pm: | |
Jrt,
Yes, that's another irritating term, "they left the truth" meaning Adventism. You can believe in Jesus with every fiber of your being...but if you left the SDA church, you left "the truth". Super annoying expression.
River,
Were you on the receiving end of a "Happy Sabbath"? If so, I feel your pain! |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2625
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 09, 2009 - 2:38 pm: | |
"Camp meeting"
"Testimonies" (unfortunately this causes a reaction even when reading that word in the Bible--in Adventism, we were taught that it was a reference to EGW, but it's actually talking about God's Word!)
Jeremy |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2640
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 5:19 pm: | |
"a Christlike character"
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9561
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 2:32 pm: | |
Oooh, yeah--I HATE that one, Jeremy...!
Colleen |
Grasshopper
Registered user
Username: Grasshopper
Post Number: 11
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 4:45 pm: | |
hi have any of you former sda had a sda minister come to visit to ask if you were going to church or to bible study or having bible study i have a suspecion there was a alterior motive ans. please grasshopper |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 989
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 7:20 pm: | |
I wanted to comment on the Christlike character one. I know we're still putting words out there and haven't discussed yet the correct way of understanding them. But I just had to share this. Our church is doing the 40 Days of Purpose that I am so against! In fact, I've been staying away the last few weeks because there are so many problems with that material that I put in the category of works righteousness. Our pastor has said he is trying to be careful how he presents these ideas, to remain true to what the Bible actually teaches - he is big on faith alone. So, this past Sunday the sermon was on developing a Christlike character. I really still wasn't planning to go, because the only things that come to my mind with that phrase are EGW quotes like "the right action of the will" and "it's up to us to rid the soul temple of every defilement." And "the only thing we can take with us to heaven is our character."
Well, I went to church anyway and gave it a chance. I really wanted to know the correct understanding of this, and I think this comes pretty close - here's a synopsis: (And please don't be too critical of it - it was just what I needed to hear and if something slips through wrong, it's because I'm not remembering it completely right and maybe my old ways of thinking crept in somehow in the re-telling).
God does choose to use life events and issues to spiritually grow us and transform us to be more Christ-like. We become equipped for spiritual growth through God’s Word (2 Timothy 3:16-17). The tools (he had these items in parenthesis for illustrations) that are found in God’s Word are truth (glasses), prayer (ladder), and love (scrub brush, for servant-hood love). We put these tools to use in our everyday life (James 1:22-24). When challenges face us we look to the truth of what God’s Word says, we are in prayer about it, and apply servant-hood love to the situation. “Spiritual growth happens when God’s Word in you takes shape in your life.” Being in community with other Christians help equip and connect Word and life. Three areas of intersection for this to happen are that Troubles are opportunities to trust (Romans 5:3-4), Temptations are opportunities to obey (John 14:23-24), and Trespasses are opportunities to forgive. Forgiveness is not optional (Ephesians 4:32). All of these are opportunities to discover God is faithful. This includes when we fail to trust, obey, and forgive – God’s grace covers it all. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9568
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 8:35 pm: | |
Raven, I agree. The term "Christlike character" isn't bad on its own. It's my visceral reaction to what it meant "before".
I think it's another of those terms that Christians use, but when Christians use them they have completely different meanings. SDAs and Christians don't realize at first that they're talking about completely different things. It's like the term "the righteousness of Christ" discussed on a different thread...
Yes, Grasshopper, there is definitely an ulterior motive most times when an SDA pastor comes to visit a "former". They want you back!
Colleen |
Akweavers
Registered user
Username: Akweavers
Post Number: 117
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 11:39 am: | |
The pastor that came to visit me didn't care if we came back or not. He just wanted to know if we were going to talk about the church to people in our small town. He actually said, "I'm not worried about whether you come to church or not, just what you might say to people in town". There is your adventist "christlike behavior" in all it's glory. |
Joyfulheart
Registered user
Username: Joyfulheart
Post Number: 527
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 7:12 pm: | |
I, too was forbidden by the pastor and one elder from talking with any present attendee of the church about my research and beliefs. I was told to never mention an anti adventist website and told to leave the church alone.
I thought I was the only one being told things like that.
They are afraid - and they should be. They are teaching error. Seventh-day Adventism cannot stand the test of honest investigation in the power of the Holy Spirit.
I will not stop speaking the truth I know about Jesus Christ and the good news of the gospel.
Acts 5:22-42 - The apostles were dealing with the same stuff we are.
Matthew 5 says we're blessed when men speak against us because of Jesus! I never in my wildest dreams imagined people who claim belief in Jesus to be so hostile and turn on me so rabidly. Jesus told us to expect it - and He will help us in the midst of everything. |
Angelcat
Registered user
Username: Angelcat
Post Number: 86
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 7:44 pm: | |
That's been my experience-they don't care much what you do as long as you aren't speaking against the church. |
Akweavers
Registered user
Username: Akweavers
Post Number: 118
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 12:59 am: | |
He may have tried to forbid me..but I don't take to being forbidden. I'll tell as many people as I can the real Truth which is in Jesus. I often say I should hold a Cult Awareness Seminar in town and call it.. The Cult Among Us.. |
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