| Author | Message | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 648 Registered: 7-2007 |
Here's something that shows just how ignorant of the Bible, Adventists are. (Now don't worry, when I point a finger, my other fingers are pointed back at myself. I was just as ignorant of this too, when I was an SDA.) 1. In Genesis 9:3, God told Noah that he could eat "every moving thing that lives." Curiously Ellen White quotes this verse in "Patriarchs and Prophets," right smack in the middle of the chapter called, "After the Flood." Then in her next sentence she contradicts it, saying that Noah was given clean meats to eat. (That would have tricked me as an Adventist. I would simply have thought that she had been given "new light" over what was written in the Bible.) 2. In Leviticus 20:24-26, God makes it clear to Israel that He was SEPARATING them from the peoples and THEREFORE they were to distinguish between clean and unclean animals. 3. In Acts 10:11-15 Peter was given a vision commanding him to eat unclean meats. In Acts 10:17 while Peter was wondering what this could mean, some Gentiles came to the gate and called for Peter. In Acts 10:28 he told the Gentiles; "God has shown me that I should not call any MAN common or unclean." 4. Romans 14:14 makes it clear that there isn't anything "unclean" anymore. 5. 1st Timothy 4:1-5 also makes it clear that "every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving." The passage starts out talking about "commanding to abstain from foods" as a doctrine "of demons." 6. Ephesians 2:14 talks about the "wall of separation" between Jew and Gentile being broken down by Christ. 7. Adventists seem to be trying to put that wall back up. How ironic for, say, a Gentile Adventist to put up that wall again by their abstaining from those meats (which formerly represented Gentiles). Wouldn't they, by their actions, be saying that they are far from God and not a part of His people? | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1402 Registered: 5-2007  |
Asurprise, Amen, it boggles the mind to understand these verses and see Ellen quotes them and read what she said which was the very opposite of what the text says. Well, this is covered in week twelve of the Quarterly commentary. Let's pray that the blind eyes of those who need to "see" will be illumined by the Holy Spirit. Phil | ||
| Lifeanew Registered user Username: Lifeanew Post Number: 194 Registered: 10-2007 |
Thanks again for all those participating in the commentary of the quarterly, we anxiously anticipate following along. What a God send. Asurprise, Wow! 1st Timothy 4:1-5, that one really hits home. Jan | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 195 Registered: 8-2008 |
Sharing a meal is an act of friendship and emotional intimacy. The command by God that Jews couldn't eat certain meats was meant to keep them from eating with Gentiles, and thus separate them from Gentiles socially. For instance, as ethnic Greeks, their Philistine neighbors ate swine regularly. An Israelite would not be allowed to take part with them in such a meal. Hence, as you say, the dietary restrictions became a wall of separation. There is Biblical evidence that a shared meal was a common part of first century church gatherings. Paul records that Peter would regularly share in communal meals with the Gentile brethren in the church at Antioch (I believe it was Antioch), until several Judaizers came from Jerusalem. Peter then "played the hypocrite" by ceasing to eat with the Gentiles. Here we see how, in the first century church, allowing the Kosher laws to infest the body of Christ served to fracture it and undo the love that is meant to bind believers together. In the epistle to the Ephesians, Paul is explaining how Jews and Gentiles were to be united by their common allegiance to the Messiah Jesus: The Law, which caused them to be separated, had been done away with. Similarly, this is why in Galatians 3:28, after explaining how Christians are no longer under the Law, Paul writes, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." These distinctions belong to the Law. The Kosher laws are a symbol of the disunity that was taken away at the cross, after which all mankind is invited to find unity in the Person of Jesus Christ. For this reason, Adventism's Kosher teaching is destructive. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1403 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hey all you wonderful people, You are overwhelming me with material on a topic I thought I knew fully. Keep it up...this is great. Phil | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6492 Registered: 3-2004  |
When I was reading the NT starting Jan 1, 2004, I read with an open mind that only God could have given me. I learned so much and have forgotten where most of it is. So I thank you for reminding me where these Bible verses are. Our awesome God teaches us and will bring things to memory when we need it. Diana L | ||
| Borninchrist Registered user Username: Borninchrist Post Number: 97 Registered: 1-2009  |
Here's another clear cut statement Jesus makes in Mark 7, regarding unclean foods. I found this probably one month after my wife and I got baptized as SDA. Can you say confusion in the brain of a new convert...? Back then I started to have tiny doubts and little by little they grew into a big ball of crap. (Mark 7:18-19) ""Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")" NIV George | ||
| Borninchrist Registered user Username: Borninchrist Post Number: 98 Registered: 1-2009 |
Am I missing something, or did Jesus call EGW and all SDA's who follow her "authoritative voice", stupid...? George | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4181 Registered: 9-2006  |
I can't tell you George, your not a monk! A man is driving down the road and breaks down near a monastery. He goes to the monastery, knocks on the door, and says, 'My car broke down. Do you think I could stay the night'? The monks graciously accept him, feed him dinner, and even fix his car. As the man tries to fall asleep, he hears a strange sound; a sound like no other that he has ever heard. The next morning, he asks the monks what the sound was, but they say, 'We can't tell you. You're not a monk'. The man is disappointed but thanks them anyway and goes about his merry way. Some years later, the same man breaks down in front of the same monastery. The monks again accept him, feed him, and even fix his car. That night, he hears the same strange mesmerizing sound that he had heard years earlier. The next morning, he asks what the sound was, but the monks reply, 'We can't tell you. You're not a monk'. The man says, 'All right, all right. I'm dying to know. If the only way I can find out what that sound was, is to become a monk, how do I become a monk'? The monks reply, 'You must travel the earth and tell us how many blades of grass there are and the exact number of sand pebbles. When you find these numbers, you will become a monk'. The man sets about his task. Some forty-five years later, he returns and knocks on the door of the monastery. He says, 'I have travelled the earth and devoted my life to the task demanded and have found what you had asked for. There are 371,145,236,284,232 blades of grass and 231,281,219,999,129,382 sand pebbles on the earth'. The monks reply, 'Congratulations, you are correct and now you are a monk'. 'We shall now show you the way to the sound'. The monks lead the man to a wooden door, where the head monk says, the sound is behind that door. The man reaches for the knob, but the door is locked. He asks, 'May I have the key'? The monks give him the key, and he opens the door. Behind the wooden door is another door made of stone. The man requests the key to the stone door. The monks give him the key, and he opens it, only to find a door made of ruby. He demands another key from the monks, who provide it. Behind that door is another door, this one made of sapphire. And so it went until the man had gone through doors of emerald,... ....silver, topaz, and amethyst. Finally, the monks say, 'This is the key to the last door'. The man is relieved to no end. He unlocks the door, turns the knob, and behind that door he is astonished to find the source of that strange sound. It is truly an amazing and unbelievable sight ---- - - - . . But I can't tell you what it is because you're not a monk. DON'T SWEAR AT ME; I'M STILL HUNTING FOR THE IDIOT WHO SENT THIS TO ME! | ||
| Borninchrist Registered user Username: Borninchrist Post Number: 99 Registered: 1-2009 |
Now I have an itch on the back of my neck... Well, thanks allot River! And what's that sound (or voice) I hear in my head...? G | ||
| Borninchrist Registered user Username: Borninchrist Post Number: 100 Registered: 1-2009 |
I hear voices in my head, Oh wait, it's single voice... It's Ellen screaming at me, "You will be lost" she said. "I told you not to touch these pork chops, But you ate them and your neck is fat" Forgive me Ellen, I have sinned, What shall I do to gain your favor? "Too late my son, you're full of poison, Even though I like swine flavor." George | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4183 Registered: 9-2006 |
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| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 401 Registered: 2-2008 |
I love the discussion my husband had with his mother about Col 2:14-17. He asks her which laws are most important. Of course she tells him the 10 commandments are most important. He then asks her what was nailed to the cross. She told him it was all of the ceremonial laws. He then repeats to her, "you mean the sacrificial laws, dietary laws, feasts, etc." She says "YES" ... "So He nailed to the cross the dietary laws, He died to save you from the unimportant laws, like the dietary laws?" "YES!" she says emphatically. So then he asks her "then why do you keep the dietary laws if Christ nailed those to the cross?" This is when she starts accusing my husband of twisting scripture. I'm sure she thinks his mind has been taken over by the dark forces. (Well... sometimes I wonder also  but I know that this time... he's not!) ~vivian | ||
| Borninchrist Registered user Username: Borninchrist Post Number: 101 Registered: 1-2009 |
In all fairness I have to say, the pastor whom I studied SDA doctrines with and who later baptized me, made it very clear that dietary laws have no effect on one's salvation. Clean and unclean foods is something we should consider, since our Creator put it in the "service manual" so we know how to take good care of our bodies. Later when we were giving bible study to another family together, they served some pepperoni pizza, as there were not yet familiar with what the SDA church teaches. The pastor took the pepperoni off and politely explained why, I on the other hand chose to eat the pepperoni, because #1 I didn't want to make our host uncomfortable... and #2 I never really adopted the SDA lifestyle, since I knew it wasn't important for my salvation... Some pastors and churches are more conservative than others... George | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 690 Registered: 11-2007  |
And Vivian, don't you have a confession to make on this subject??? hehe. I won't steal your joy there. The issue of fellowship is huge. I can't tell you how many family gatherings were made tense by our refusal to eat pork, and how now, I hesitate to invite my vegan sda neighbors over for dinner. The verse in Rev. where Jesus says: Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. Eating is intimacy. When food bring division, that has to be a worse sin than defiling your flesh. I could write a book on the stupid divisions over food, not just clean and unclean - but clean meat/lacto ovo vegan klingon - whatever. It's SO ridiculous to me now, and sad. | ||
| Borninchrist Registered user Username: Borninchrist Post Number: 103 Registered: 1-2009 |
This attitude of separation is a pet peeve I've always had with Adventists. It is so evident and I can say this, because I was in the SDA church and I came "from the world", so I know how both sides view each other. This is why I always made a point not to isolate myself from friends I had in the past. Before I became a member of the church, I had an opportunity to observe how SDA's act in a secular environment and also watch the reaction of those around them. I'm not just talking about food. I'm telling you, people generally don't want to associate themselves with such group as SDA's. In fact they get turned off, they see rejection instead of love. They see a group of people who consider themselves more superior and pure (much like the Jews) while the rest of world are dogs. George | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6495 Registered: 3-2004 |
As I was learning what the Bible said I remember God showing me how arrogant I was. I wrote one of the former adventist pastors, forget which one, and asked about this arrogance. I asked if it was normal for an SDA to have this arrogance. His reply was yes, it is normal for an adventist to be arrogant. I am so thankful God showed it to me. He has taken it from me for which I am thankful. Diana L | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2008 |
Food... How many times I wondered how is it possible for it to be such a big issue in the adventist church. I remember hearing people saying that you have to be vegetarian, because in heaven we will only eat vegetables and, therefore, you have to get used to it before going there! Even back then, years ago, I would find that kind of horrible. And, usually, conversations also would be about food... - How do you do that or this? - I've been vegetarian for such long time, you know? - Oh, the meat! The horrible taste of meat! - You shouldn't drink water with your meals! - Do not mix milk and sugar! Sugar eats your bones. And a thousand other things that I heard thousands of times. And, well, do not make me talk about those miraculous diets that clean your blood and mind. Especially those that are about eating only onions for one month or something like that. Just as a clarification, I'm sure that a lot of that food stuff is not bad and probably have lots of benefits... But, dear me, what some of them do is from another world. Bskillet, thank you very much for your explanation about that time when Peter was eating with the gentiles... I've been through that part a few times in my readings in these last months and thank God I could understand what Paul wanted to say... But your text helped me to see it better now. George, I was thinking precisely on that same text from Mark... I was a bit surprised when I saw it a few months ago, and remembered a christian friend from Hong Kong saying something about Jesus making all foods good to eat. That was a couple of years ago, and back then I thought that my friend was probably wrong but I didn't go to see if he was or not. Very typical... Just believing that others are wrong but not verifying it yourself. You just prefer to remain with your own preconceived ideas. In any case, that verse from Mark is really clarifying, and challenging for a SDA mind as well And I agree with you about the way some in the SDA church behave with other "worldly" people. Sometimes the adventists are really awkward, not knowing what to do, and some are plainly rude. At times we would visit a catholic church (just as tourists) and I could feel some people acting with some sort of arrogance... For me, I would still see the place as a place of worship so I had to be as respectful as possible. Yesterday I was talking with my mom about some of this stuff... About how, from my point of view, the SDA church and many people in it gets very isolated. Maybe because of the "exclusivity" of the "message", that they are the remnant church, that they are right and everybody else was wrong... Whatever. The question is that many simply prefer to remain in their little world of fog. I would always wonder why couldn't we have more cooperation with other churches in the area. I thought that there was such a wasted potential on that... To do good to the community and to talk everybody about Jesus. If Jesus was the main, central "thing" that people had to know about... Why not? Oh, well... Now I know more, and I know that our God is an amazing God | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 650 Registered: 7-2007 |
Back when I was an Adventist, I would rather have starved to death than eat pork. Seriously. I felt that I would be honoring God if I abstained from pork and seriously sinning if I did eat it. I felt that if I did eat it and then didn't really truly repent, I wouldn't be saved. And as long as I didn't do something REALLY BAD like eat pork (unless I repented afterward) and as long as I went by my check-list of things to do or not do; and kept repenting of all my sins, then I'd be alright, I thought. I had no idea of the works oriented religion I had. I thought I believed that I was saved by grace through faith, though I couldn't put my weight down on that completely because of what Ellen White said. | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 403 Registered: 2-2008 |
OK... here's my confession... I was DEFILED last Thursday! My coworker brought in bacon... just for me! I have to say... it was yummy! I have a side story to tell. My niece came out to visit just after Christmas. She's nearly a Vegan. She tries to avoid eggs if she can. She's used to ordering in Loma Linda where vegetarian is common. I took her to lunch out here in deer-hunting, meat-eating, squirrel-hunting land. We went to Culvers. We got to the register and she ordered a "grilled chicken sandwich without the chicken." People out here can't understand this... no chicken?!?! The cashier is looking at her and said, "you mean, no cheese?" My niece states, "No, no chicken." Cashier, "... you want just the bread? What DO you want on that?" It takes this lady another 5 minutes to locate the "no meat" option on her register. She's biting her lip as she looks for it... she finally throws up her hands, "I'm giving you the sandwich for free!" I looked at my niece... you're messing with them!" We had a good laugh about it all. Back to my co-worker... next, she's going to try to convince me to have beer and fried pickles. I told my husband that he shouldn't be surprised if I come home with a tattoo from the parlor next door! ~vivian |
