| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 804 Registered: 5-2007 |
Ok , assuming this is a permissable topic on the forum. I came across the attached article, see link: http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=5792.0.111.0 So how does one look at this? Is this relevant to our reality or do we just go along with this trend. I have noted the same rhetoric in some Protestant circles here in the USA. In the discussions I have read here, the integrity is that the forum tends to admitt and maintain the logic and consistancy of theory or argument when reasoning out the various topics. So, hypotheticaly speaking. Even though many of us have concluded that Sunday is a voluntary choice, traditional, and adopted , it is not Biblically required nor mandated as law in scripture. Though some are trying to do so. If we cross the line and seek to take the path of Reinstating the 10 commandments , then the argument of the new covenant is undermined. You can't have it both ways. <<<KEY POINT. The moment we enforce Sunday observance, then the SDA have been validated. Jim02 | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4034 Registered: 9-2006  |
Sounds like hog wash from the COG to me. Thats point number one. Point number two, even if that did take place it wouldn't validate Adventist teachings, you still got E.G,IG, SS, OC, TC CB,and a score of other stuff they have borrowed from other cults over the years so one point wouldn't validate them at all. I just don't see the logic in that at all. It probably won't be the Catlics that take after them with a gun, it will more likely be a one world government and the Anti-Christ who will take after us all, but these cults will just shift gears and fall right in with him. It ain't Saturday the devils mad about it's Jesus cause he knows he's been had. Ya might say he's toast!  River | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2008 |
First, I think that it is relevant to have a good idea of where that article was published... From the little I've seen, after reading most of the text, that website is strongly influenced by Armstrongism. I must say that I don't know much about the Philadelphia Church of God, that publishes 'The Trumpet', or the teachings of Herbert Armstrong... That's why I would prefer to have a better idea of which kind of biases the publishers might have before taking a position with respect to what they say. I tend to be quite skeptic in general. It's hard for me to easily accept something like that without checking with other sources and giving it some time to mature. The way the text was written sounded too 'familiar' to me, too similar to many things we all here have heard or read before. Second, as you already know I am from Europe and still living there I like to be relatively well informed of what happens around me and I usually check many news sources, sometimes from different countries. So far I haven't heard anything of this until now. I might give it a try and see if there's any reference in non-religious media. By the way, why don't they never include references to their sources in articles like this one? Third, if the observance of Sunday as a 'holy day' is ever enforced, not only it would seem to validate some SDA teachings in some way [EDIT: Better said, many of them would probably think that it validates what they believe] (Here I'm simply 'forgetting' the obvious point that the Sunday Law should be worldwide to fit with what SDA escathology says) but I also consider that it would be plainly wrong. I don't need to go in detail since it is something that is already well known here, but God never declared Sunday to be a holy day, a Sabbath for us to keep. And if we, as Christians under a New Covenant, are not given the order to 'observe' one day... Then why should we have to 'observe' another? (Message edited by martin on January 26, 2009) | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 106 Registered: 12-2003 |
If you google Philadelphia Church of God and look at their history you'll find they are an off shoot from the World Wide Church of God who remained loyal to it's aberrant teachings. If you're not familiar with the WWCG's story you can view it at Mark Martin's website - scroll down about halfway, it's titled "Called to be Free". http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Video/tabid/502/Default.aspx This article in "The Trumpet" is nothing more than the typical fearmongering that Adventism likes to use. | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 136 Registered: 8-2008 |
I believe there was something in the EU about how the Catholic church wanted Sunday protected as a day workers have a right to not work on, if they so choose. Or something like that. It was not a Sunday Law (I.E. You must work on Sabbath and not on Sunday, as SDA-ism teaches). It was more an issue workers getting Sunday off. No doubt this article just twists it completely. | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 73 Registered: 9-2006 |
Here is the news item from the COMECE website (Comission of the Bishop's Conferences of the European Community): "Sunday protection will not be anchored in the European Working Time Directive. ‘Sunday as the privileged weekly rest day will not be inserted into the future Working Time Directive although the reconciliation of work and family life is the explicit aim of this Directive’ stated COMECE Secretary general Piotr Mazurkiewicz. ‘This is incoherent and a missed opportunity when we consider how much European citizens expect today in a Social Europe which protects workers and their families. We thank all those who got involved in favour of the protection of Sunday rest.’ The MEPs Marie Panayotopoulos-Cassiotou, Thomas Mann and Hubert Pirker had tabled 2 amendments aimed at introducing Sunday as the weekly rest day ‘in principle’. These amendments had been signed by more than 40 MEPs from all political leanings. Church representations, alliances for the protection of Sunday and Trade Unions from several Member States also supported the initiative. It is regrettable that for procedural reasons, MEPs could not express themselves on these amendments and so were deprived of the possibility of debating such a crucial issue for European citizens. Considering the mobilisation achieved on the Sunday issue for the vote on the Working Time Directive, it is important for Churches, Trade Unions and civil society organisations to continue to stay mobilised and to speak out with one voice in the Member States, especially when fundamental social rights are at stake." The Pope's statement from his Eucharist celebration in Vienna of 9/7/2007 can be found at the Vatican website. It is an interesting read, and uses much language that is reminiscent of SDA arguments for Sabbath keeping. It is not a call for enforced Sunday keeping, however. The Trumpet has extrapolated a great deal from these statements. Martin C (Message edited by Martinc on January 26, 2009) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 805 Registered: 5-2007 |
I find it intriguing how things get twisted and as always, you have to have the facts. There is enough categoric detail that I at least note what is presented in the article. I agree with River in general. But I also beleive just because one is paranoid does not mean there is no danger. I do not belong to, with nor align my sentiments with the Phildelphia Trumphet or it's affliates. I do read "some" of their articles ever since I ran across the magazine in the public library. If anything, they do at least root out these less publicised events. I also agree, there is a lot of fear talk in most of their articles. For better or worse. Did anyone say spin ? I get that too. So , all that in mind, my position is , pay attention, and at least try to get to the facts as they pertain to reality and probable outcomes. In a general sense, this Sunday issue hits on a raw nerve with me because the way I found release from SDA legalism was in that I learned the terms of the new covenant. Conversely, when the other Christian denominations use legalsim to promote, intimidate , mandate Sunday as obligatory practice , (even among it's own members) , then I go back to the issue of , this is not a logical legal Biblical argument from get go. Yet it is presented as if it were. Thus, no matter where the promotion of Sunday (or Saturday) comes from. It is an invalid argument when it is presented as binding. For once, is it even possible to find a church that is consistant with honest logical doctrine? Obviously , this gets into many tangets and presuppositions. Authority , loose and bind debates come to mind. Jim02 | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 402 Registered: 7-2008  |
NEVER forget..... Worship is not about a day. It is about a person. GOD !!!! Worship God everyday is my motto. ....Animal | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 333 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jim,my sda relative sent me a similar article, but it said it couldn't be copied. I believe it is from the adventists. It didn't include the source. But apparently they are on to it too. It's amazing that fear didn't penetrate my being as it would have before! I can only imagine what must be going through the sda's minds! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4037 Registered: 9-2006 |
These cults are not considered mainstream Christianity by any stretch of the imagination, but do you ever notice how they try to capitalize on fear mongering and sensationalism to get your attention? These kind of folk set around and scare one another then head for the hills with a bucket of kernal Sanders and a six pack of Pepsi. I ain't saying we don't live in dangerous times, because we do, but Jesus is our rest even in dangerous times. But these people seem to thrive on fear and it goes from one sensational thing to the other. I believe we are seeing the very end of this age, this old world is reeling with wars, unrest, and one disaster right after another, which one would they like me to get fearful about, a person can take their pick. As it get worse, I get calmer. It reminds me of the old song "It takes a worried mind to sing a worried song." River | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 204 Registered: 1-2007  |
Man forget Sunday or Saturday, keeping a day is easy, i wish it boiled down to just keeping a day. I have a hard enough time just trying not to be angry, or be selfish or prideful. I struggle with my own heart and leading it according to God's word verses just following my deceitful heart. I am praying God give me the strenght to be a better servant and a better husband. When I was an Adventist I thought I had it all figured out and felt because I kept the Sabbath I was secure. To bad I never really did enter God's rest until he revealed to me His truth and the condition of my heart. When I knew I was saved by Christ's righteousness I was secure, yet I still long for Jesus to complete me. This is a daily walk and as I grow I learn that I still need to keep looking to Christ to work in my heart, just to keep me in this faith. Paul | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4038 Registered: 9-2006 |
Me too Paul. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9320 Registered: 12-2003  |
So well said, Paul. Fear mongering is absolutely antithetical to truth. Perfect love casts OUT fear. Great point, River. Colleen | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 467 Registered: 10-2006 |
Amen, Paul - me too! Don't forget that a Sunday law would have to make everyone worship on Sunday. It would not necessarily prohibit worship on Sabbath. No place in the Bible that I'm aware of is there a prohibition of worship on a certain day. God loves and values our worship all the time. If there was a certain time that God didn't want us to worship I think He would have made it a point to tell us so in the Bible. A day dictated by the government to worship wouldn't ever be a problem to me. It is false worship (worship of anything other than the God of the Bible, Father Son and Holy Spirit) that would concern me. I would rather die than give my worship to a false god. God preserved His Word and Colossians 2 is a part of His preserved Word. Verse 16 says not to let anyone judge you in regard to fixed festivals, new moons and Sabbath days. Jesus never told us to keep the Sabbath. He even did some things to make the Parisees question whether He was breaking the Sabbath Himself. If Sabbath keeping had been an issue to His last day people, I'm quite sure He would have warned us about it. Jesus told us to watch out for so many things in the last days, but never spoke a Word about the Sabbath. I always thought an anti-christ babylonian power would cause people to break the law and work on the Sabbath rather than worship on a different day. The whole concept of a Sunday law never made any sense to me in that respect. God never prohibited Sunday worship. I'm sure He would have warned us about it somewhere if it was to deceive most of His followers who He loves. Incidentally, He did warn us about false prophets but NEVER even once warned us about a true prophet in the last days whose writings would be rejected. There are the two witnesses in Revelation, but EGW doesn't begin to fit there. Please correct me if I'm mistaken about this. | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 64 Registered: 10-2008 |
Joyful heart great insight in terms of a Sunday law not necessarily prohibiting worship on Saturday and your last paragraph about the warning of false prophets in the last days---but no warning about rejecting a "true prophet in the last days" I never thought of it that way | ||
| Daisie_girl Registered user Username: Daisie_girl Post Number: 95 Registered: 9-2008 |
Here, here Paul! Everyday is a challenge because we're wrestling these limiting and imperfect bodies!! Thank goodness God is more about a day and in fact, is about us and our relationship with Him! Praise Him!! I had an SDA friend who wouldn't even go on a missions trip with another denomination if they were going to teach Sunday worship on the trip! Because forget it's about reaching the lost world, it's all about a day to them! So sad! I have yet to hear of anyone in the world being persecuted for worshipping on Saturday!! They will know we are Christians by our love!! Not by a day! | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 808 Registered: 5-2007 |
The thing that occurs to me in all these type of topics regarding end day prophecy's, watch out for x. y and z dangers, deceptions and so forth, is that most of them are global in admonition. By this I mean, non specific in so many cases, of a general or broad scope, or so vague that it is open to multiple interpretations , constructs and out right guesswork which is often presented as fact. I have noted there are three camps here. A)I don't know.(But You might) B)You don't know. (Neither do I.) C)I know. (Trust me) Jim02 | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4055 Registered: 9-2006 |
I like C. I know (trust me) the best. Send me 500 bucks Jim and I will make you money. (Trust me) River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9339 Registered: 12-2003 |
Colleen | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 608 Registered: 5-2002 |
I like A. Do I make my $500 check payable to just "River" or "River, Inc."? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4058 Registered: 9-2006 |
Oh, River Inc. by all means, we don't run no two bit operations here, we are prime rip offs. |
