| Author |
Message |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1313
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 4:00 pm: |     |
Hi Y'all,
This is just something that caught my eye the other day at church. The scripture was focusing on Simeon in the story where he went to the temple and saw the baby Jesus. (Luke 2:27 - "...When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required...") I had a flashback of all the times I've heard my SDA loved ones tell me that a big reason they keep Sabbath is because Jesus did. I was always provided with this bit of scripture. Luke 4:16 "He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom".
So I went into Biblegateway and typed in "as was custom" and came up with a few others that I'm sure my SDA loved ones don't keep as Jesus did.
His parents took him to be circumsized on the 8th day after he was born (again, Luke 2).
His parents took him to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover (Luke 2:41 Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. 42When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom.)
He had a lamb sacrificed for Passover (Mark 14:12 On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?")
Although this doesn't have the "as was custom", we find that Jesus also went to the temple during what we call Hanukkah. (John 10:22 Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade.")
This is just my observation, but why don't the SDA's keep these other events just like Jesus did? When did they fall away? To the Children of Israel, including Jesus, these were very important customs.
?  ?
Leigh Anne |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 6212
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 4:23 pm: | |
A question similar to that has been asked the adventists on CARM.
Diana L |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1314
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 4:50 pm: | |
Diana, I'm curious, what is the usual answer? Has anyone offered one?
If it's "because the Sabbath was a commandment", then I have this text from 2nd Chronicles ~ verse 6 "Slaughter the Passover lambs, consecrate yourselves and prepare the lambs for your fellow countrymen, doing what the LORD commanded through Moses."
Passover was definitely a commandment. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 6214
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 8:49 pm: | |
The way I remember what is said on CARM is "As was his custom" is used in connection with the sabbath. If his, Jesus or Paul, custom was to be in the synagogue on the sabbath, then we should go to church on the sabbath also. This is just the simplistic explanation as I remember it.
I will try to find out more instead of going by my memory.
Diana L |
Mommamayi
Registered user
Username: Mommamayi
Post Number: 709
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 11:34 am: | |
Lan, You have extremely good, accurate, valid points!
Their typical response is that all the other stuff was nailed to the cross. Then they duck out of the commandment argument, and go back to Sabbath being instituted at creation, before the commandments were even given, and also say that they believe we will celebrate it in heaven according to that verse in Isaiah that is taken out of context.
This is the point where you ask them "So, you believe that Sabbath was CREATED with this world, and that God wasn't celebrating it every week, prior to that?" just to get them thinking about how timeless the supposed moral issue of which day to worship on really is.
And you ask them if they believe the rest of that portion of Isaiah is describing heaven when it talks about old men dying and us celebrating the monthly feasts. Ask them "If there is no sun or moon needed for light in heaven, how would we be following a weekly or monthly schedule like we do on earth? When we are continually in God's presence, how would every 7th day be any different then the other days with him in heaven?"
If I were still an SDA, at this point I would start conjecturing, offering possible scenarios, and then wrap it up by saying that we won't know all the answers until we get to heaven!
Then I would change the subject.
(Message edited by mommamayi on December 31, 2008) |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 6221
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 11:37 am: | |
Mommamayi, You have summed up very well what I read on CARM. Thanks.
Diana L |
Brian3
Registered user
Username: Brian3
Post Number: 179
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 12:27 pm: | |
Sabbath in the New Heavens and New Earth?
"The Sabbath was made for Man...."
God and Angels don't keep it. Never have, never will. |
Freedom55
Registered user
Username: Freedom55
Post Number: 14
Registered: 3-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 12:47 pm: | |
I remember a time when we could obtain bumper stickers that said, "Jesus kept the 7th day Sabbath holy. What about you?" Of course the logic was that if Jesus kept it holy, then we all should follow his example. But as Leigh Anne has identified, Jesus would have also kept all of the Jewish feast days, as would have been expected of any good Jewish boy, which is why I think the SDA church is now embroiled in a controversy about keeping the feast days today. For exactly the reasons mentioned, how can they pick just the Sabbath and ignore the other requirements of the law? You have made some very good points here! |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 359
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 2:05 pm: | |
SDA has a controversy over Feast Days?
News to me..can you elaborate please ???
Animal...the curious one |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1318
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 2:37 pm: | |
Well, besides the obvious of healing the sick, raising the dead and turning wine into water, (why hasn't anyone followed THOSE examples??) I just got to wondering about the "custom" issue. It's funny, even the Sabbath was referred to as a custom in that text. Could that be significant?
Diana C, I like your line of reasoning! Reading that gives me an idea of what I would hear from my in-laws if the subject ever came up.
Also, it never ceases to amaze me, according to the SDA mindset, how the Sabbath became the MOST important commandment above every other one. How and when did that happen?
Leigh Anne |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 6223
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 3:09 pm: | |
That is an Ellenism. She had a vision and around the 4th commandment there was a ring of light or was highlighted in some way. It is not Biblical. SDAs like to say it started at creation. But there is nothing saying Adam and Eve rested with God at creation on the 7th day. There is nothing in Genesis saying any of the patriarchs "kept" the 7th day. Sabbath is not mentioned until Ex 16 when the Israelites got manna from heaven. They were instructed to go out each morning and pick up what they needed for that day. On the 6th day they were to pick up enough for 2 days and it would not spoil overnight.
Sabbath is mentioned again in Deut 5:15 where Moses tells them that God gave the sabbath to them so they would not forget they were rescued out of slavery in Egypt.
SDAs like to say it began at creation, but it did not.
Another thing about the 7 day is that with days 1 through 6 there is a beginning and an end. There is no beginning or end to the 7th day. I remember when my youngest brother told me that. I was shocked. I had to read it myself. It took another 14 years for it to take hold in my heart and head.
I did not know Deut.5:15 existed until I left adventism. Oh, read Deut 5:2, 3 where it says that the commandments and all the rules/regulations were only given to those at Mt Sinai/Horeb. I will tell the people I quote those texts to that I was not there, so they do not apply to me.
Diana L |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 3915
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 6:58 pm: | |
Lannie,
They would just go back to the Sabbath and head for a rabbit hole. Isn't that what people do when they really don't care about the truth? All they care about is "The truth" according to Adventism.
River |
Mommamayi
Registered user
Username: Mommamayi
Post Number: 712
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 7:47 pm: | |
The line of reasoning that they are doing it because Jesus did it could apply to a lot of things:
Are they living in Israel? Are they remaining celebate? Are they wearing robes and sandals? Are they eating meat? (We know he at least ate fish and lamb for Passover.) You could go on and on with this sillyness. |
Freedom55
Registered user
Username: Freedom55
Post Number: 15
Registered: 3-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 7:50 am: | |
RE: SDA's & feastdays, see Dale's article in the Sept/Oct 2008 issue of Proclamation. Its becoming an issue in my area anyways. |
Joyfulheart
Registered user
Username: Joyfulheart
Post Number: 424
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 8:27 am: | |
It's also an issue in my former church. The problem for them (and for me not too awful long ago) is the word "perpetual". The Passover (and the other feasts as well)were called "perpetual" statutes for all generations.
Since SDA's say they go by the whole Bible from Genesis through Revelation not just the New Testament like they incorrectly say we do. They're really left with no choice.
When I believed SDA doctrine, it was something I asked about all the time. The inconsistency of applying scripture in one way sometimes and other ways other times really bothered me.
I went to christianbook.com and bought several books about the feasts. I even contacted Jews for Jesus to see what they did. It was all really interesting, but nobody really seemed to be following all the rules for each feast. Shortly after that spiritual excursion, I found Mark Martin's study on the covenants and Sabbath in Christ - and discovered the New Covenant!
SDA's have zero understanding of the shadows, new covenant and that everything points to Jesus! |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 1270
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 9:28 am: | |
Joyfulheart,
Back in the days when the 'Jews for Jesus' first formed, they came came to our church a number of times. They put on a complete demonstration of the Passover Feast, where they showed how each and every aspect was a testimony of Jesus Christ who fulfilled and completed the Passover. There never was any requirement given that we should celibrate any of the Jewish feasts. Only that we could learn insights of our faith by understanding what each feast was about.
Phil |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 6228
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 1:13 pm: | |
I spent all my school years in SDA schools and never once did I learn how everything in the OT pointed forward to Jesus. I never learned that the NT showed how Jesus fulfilled everything in the OT and gave His New Covenant. I never learned that Jesus is the Gospel. I am still learning. I feel like I was deprived of an education that I badly needed.
Diana L |
Tkmommy
Registered user
Username: Tkmommy
Post Number: 92
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 9:12 am: | |
In this quarters K book there is a story that claims Jesus "went to church on sabbath as a boy"- which I've heard before- but one, he did not go to church he went to synogogue, and second, wasn't that only for feasts and festivals andnot every sabbath? My understanding was that it was not custom for children to go to synogogue weekly. Anyone know? |
Joyfulheart
Registered user
Username: Joyfulheart
Post Number: 434
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 8:25 pm: | |
Hi Phil,
Those Jews for Jesus presentations must have been interesting. I heard they still do those presentations and would like to see them someday. Back in those days, I didn't really know who was right. I was looking for answers that made sense anywhere I could get them. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 3920
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 4:42 am: | |
The Adventist claim they use the "whole Bible".
But really all they do is proof text the whole Bible. There is a difference in studying the whole Bible for knowledge gained and proof texting the whole Bible to uphold some cock-a-maimie theology.
In my own opinion there is enough knowledge in the whole Bible for doctrine and correction without having to resort to historical writings outside that if applied with enough prayer and supplication to God for his understanding of what he wrote.
The letter is genuine no matter how remote the mind of the reader.
River |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 363
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 7:55 am: | |
What about those of us who DONT have a mind??? |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 364
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 7:57 am: | |
And what about those of us who do not have a mind??
Do we have any hope??? |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 1274
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 8:16 am: | |
Animal, it's not a problem:
The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ. {1 Cor 2:14-16 RSV}
Phil |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 1276
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 8:42 am: | |
Animal, here is the 'rest of the story':
In the sermon 'The Mind of Christ', he first quotes Dr. Joe Aldrich, President of Multnomah School of the Bible; "The main thing is to see that the main thing remains the main thing".
quote:I think that is a very self-evident truth, and yet a very important one. It raises the question of just what is "the main thing" in Christianity. Is it our view of man, the unity of humanity as one race here in the world under God? Is it the ethical demands that Christianity raises, the moral standards we hear of these days? Is it the emphasis on marriage and the family which is central to all of life? What is it that is the central thing about Christian faith? Is it our hope in the hour of death and in overcoming the great enemy of mankind when we come to the end of life...Well, the answer of Scripture, of course, is very clear. Both the Old and New Testaments indicate that the "main thing" about Christianity is Jesus Christ himself. He is the center of our faith, not even the Word about him, but he himself as a living Being who imparts to us new life by faith in his name.
As Christians, this is who we are because we have the mind of Christ!
Phil |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 1278
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 9:02 am: | |
Animal,
It appears my own mind is slipping some. Somehow, I ended up posting the same thing under two different threads.
To quote you from another time: "Woe is me."
Phil |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 365
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 10:34 am: | |
WOW !!!!!!!!
I have officially been quoted !!
animal is honored !!!
Animal..what more can I say ??? |
Christo
Registered user
Username: Christo
Post Number: 85
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 8:06 am: | |
Quote...The "main thing" about Christianity is Jesus Christ Himself.
The thing we have in common with God, is God Himself, Jesus Christ.
It puts new meaning on Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Chris |
