| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2739 Registered: 10-2004  |
I just saw this EGW quote that was posted today on CARM by "philbilly"--and had to post it here: } She is blatantly teaching two separate, corporeal gods. As "philbilly" said, it sounds Mormon. (Think Joseph Smith's "First Vision"!) I don't think I had ever seen this quote before. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 14, 2009) | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 435 Registered: 7-2008  |
I am no fan of Ellen White..She has mislead millions, including me for 30 years. I wish I had never heard of her. But I am not sure this passage shows she believes in 2 gods...unless I am misunderstanding your statement. Doesnt the Bible state that ALL 3 members of the Godhead were present at Christ baptism ?? The concept and reality of the Trinity is beyond my comprehension. Please help me to understand your statement Jeremy. Animal is always willing to learn...Thank you. ....Animal...always willing to learn | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2004 Registered: 8-2004  |
She's basically following along the idea that the Father has a body just like Jesus - and therefore they can stand next to each other. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4799 Registered: 9-2006  |
Matthew 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. Matthew 3:17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Its hard to realize the the meaning of this passage, at least to me it is, because the heavens were opened to John and I doubt if any one of us has had the heavens opened to us in such a manner. It has been long amusing to me that we paint the Spirit in the form of a dove, but that is not what John saw, he said it was LIKE a dove, not the form of a dove. He was describing the indescribable seems to me. All three were always present in Jesus and with Jesus. God told Abraham that he was not to sacrifice his son,but God would provide the sacrifice. There was no dove. John saw the Holy Spirit in bodily form, he saw a dimension which few if any have ever seen, he beheld the spirit world and described what he saw, but can we see what he saw by that description? I say hardly. I don't know what E.G saw in her warped mind,but I'll lay you a dollar to a doughnut she never saw what John saw. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4800 Registered: 9-2006 |
Man that gal was bonkers Jeremy! | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 436 Registered: 7-2008 |
Thanks for the insight River. Such is why I appreciate this forum. I learn so much here. Animal | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2740 Registered: 10-2004 |
Let's take a look at what God actually said when He spoke the Ten Words: "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery." (Exodus 20:2 NASB.) According to the EGW quote, who is the "I"? Which one of the two "standing side by side upon the mount" is the "I"? "You shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:3 NASB.) Which one of the two gods "standing side by side" is the "Me"? Besides being heretical, her claim is simply absurd. Also, according to EGW's statement, it should not say in Deuteronomy 4:33 that the Israelites "heard the voice of God speaking"--instead it should say that they "heard the voices of the Gods speaking"! Jeremy | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 148 Registered: 3-2009 |
In the episode of Jesus's baptism, If Jesus was coming out of the water, the Spirit descended from heaven like a dove (whatever it means) and the Father spoke from heaven, weren't they in three different places? Hec | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4804 Registered: 9-2006 |
Heck Hec, I don't understand the trinity either! But if your mind gets a holt on it, don't let it go before you clue me in.  River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4805 Registered: 9-2006 |
If you find me at my desk with my eyeballs rolled back into my head and a string of drool draped across my shirt don't call 911, it's only me thinking about the trinity. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9837 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hec, heaven cannot contain God; there is no place where His voice is not heard and where He is not. God is never limited to "a place". He is over all and beyond all, and He is in us who trust Him. The fact that God manifested Himself in such a way that John was able to hear and see a representation of His triune nature was simply an amazing confirmation of Jesus' divinity and a more complete revelation of God Himself. God did not specifically reveal His Trinitarian nature before He sent Jesus. Jesus, as Hebrews 1:1-2 states, is God's last word to us. He is the revelation of God. Not until Jesus were life and immortality brought to light through the gospel (2 Tim 1:10). God is One. He is not three. He is One Being, of one substance. The Jewish shema, the Lord, the Lord our God, the Lord is One—is indeed truth. The One expresses Himself in three Persons—but they are always involved in every act of God. The gifts of the Spirit are not just from the Spirit—they are the function of the One God expressed in three Persons—1 Cor 12:4-6. We have access to God not just through Christ's blood but by the whole Trinity—Ephesians 2:17-18. And so on. John 4:24 is totally clear that God is spirit. He does not have a body. If He represents Himself in a way that humans can visually sense His presence as in the form LIKE a dove at the baptism, that is merely a gift He gives to confirm His presence. It is not His natural state. That quote, Jeremy, is horrifying. The more of these EGW-isms I see, the more I am convinced that Adventists totally believe in "another Jesus". Even though they are taught (today!) trinitarian words, in practice they are taught that God is composed of three "gods" who, together, make up the one. Again, it's like the pie analogy: Jesus is not fully God in the sense that a slice of pie is fully pie. He, the Son is fully God in the sense of having the whole pie's attributes in Himself. Same for the Father, and same for the Holy Spirit. Each person of the Trinity contains, if you will, ALL of God in Himself. He's not only one-third of God; he has all of God's qualities and characteristics and attributes. The Trinity doesn't divide attributes within itself; the persons of the Trinity, however, have different roles among themselves. Adventists are taught at a foundational level that Jesus is somehow the meeker, more accessible, less fearsome "part" of God. They are further functionally taught that the Father has a body and is sort-of like a very powerful god who rules over the son and the force called the "spirit". I say this because I was an Adventist, and I wasn't always a very conservative Adventist. I was an evangelical Adventist for at least a decade or more, and I still apprehended God as three separate beings united in purpose—but not in authority or substance. Ellen was a false prophet. She led millions of people into despair and heresy, and Adventists absolutely do not have a biblical understanding of Jesus or the Trinity—in spite of their words. They have a human Jesus who could have sinned or failed at the cross; they have a Holy Spirit who is more of a force than a person; they have a Father who varies depending upon the brand of Adventism....but the three are not seen as equal. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 153 Registered: 3-2009 |
Two questions, Colleen and anyone who would like to jump in. 1. Can we say that the Trinity is like, let's say River. River is one person, but River is a son, a father, and a husband. so there are three persons but only one River.When River acts as a son, he doesn't act as a father, but he is still the father, etc. Not three separate Rivers, but three distinct Rivers? 2. If God is God is ONE and he is spirit. Now Jesus has a body, doesn't God have a body since Jesus is GOD (the only one God distinct but not separate?) If God doesn't have a body, then what is Jesus? Did Jesus throw away his resurrected body at some point? In that case isn't he anymore the God-man? I know I sound crazy, but so be it. I want to understand. Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2742 Registered: 10-2004 |
I'll just respond quickly and let Colleen or someone else give more detailed explanations: 1. No, that sounds more like the heresy of modalism. 2. When we say that God is spirit and is incorporeal (doesn't have a body) we are talking about His eternal divine essence/nature, not His condescending to enter time and space by becoming a man and taking on a human body. Becoming a man did not change His divine essence (the fact that God is one infinite spirit, without parts, outside of time and space). Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 15, 2009) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9844 Registered: 12-2003 |
Not crazy at all, Hec. Jeremy is right; modalism—the notion that there is one person called God who appears at different times as one of three different roles is a heresy as much as is tritheism. The Bible clearly describes three persons with different roles. Jesus prayed to the Father (not to Himself); the Holy Spirit came upon Mary before she was with child; The Father sent His Son. Yet these three persons are all one Being: God. This is a mystery we cannot comprehend within our limitations of time and merely three dimensions. We perceive three separate entities, all of whom are One God, but we do not have the ability to explain how this works. Hugh Ross uses the analogy (a limited one, but helpful to me) of a person interacting with three separate objects reaching toward him from behind a screen. He sees only the screen and the three projections, each of which interacts with him in a different time and place, and he assumes he has found three mysterious but personal creatures to relate to. What the person interacting with the three objects cannot see is that the three are actually fingers attached to one hand. The one hand is a whole, and the three fingers are all part of one hand; the person, however, only perceives three separate objects. It's a limited metaphor at best, but it might help explain the concept of three Persons who are part of One Being. We truly cannot comprehend how it "works". Still, God is sovereign, eternal, immortal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, etc etc, and we have no frame of reference even to begin to grasp what those really mean. We are mortal and limited to space and time. Yet the immortal, all-powerful and wise God interacts with us personally within our limitations. We have to live with the mystery--but when we realize that Jesus is no less sovereign or powerful than the Father, and neither is the Holy Spirit—the paradigm of "God" changes drastically. The Almighty God took a human body and shed human blood to pay for human sin. Yet His essence as God did not stop. He continued holding all things together, even as a human, and even in His death—according to His role described in Colossians 1:19. And when we see the Holy Spirit is Almighty, eternal God, the notion of being indwelled by the Holy Spirit is astonishing. God Himself lives in us, bringing out own dead spirits to life through the power of Jesus' resurrection and defeat of death. God Himself has made His dwelling IN us...in the church collectively and in us individually. It begins to make sense that the Holy Spirit is the Law written on our hearts. You can't go any "higher" than that! God Himself no convicts us of sin and teaches us to surrender and to offer ourselves as living sacrifices. Does that help at all? Colleen | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 59 Registered: 11-2008 |
There's something I want to comment... Since I was never explained the Trinity in any decent way except the Adventist way, and that even without much detail, I came to my own conclusions. This was long before I came to discover a lot of things in my way out of Adventism... Many of those things, especially concerning our spirits and the differences between the SDA and the Christian Trinity, have been very helpful. Anyway, I concluded that the different persons of the Trinity are different manifestations of God, and all of them could happen at different times or simultaneously. After reading that reference to modalism that Jeremy made, I thought it was something similar to that... But from what I read about 'modalism' what I concluded is different: I believed that the three persons or 'manifestations' are completely God, all the time, and in my mind there were no problems for the three of them existing at the same time. The OT always talk about one, and only one God that is all powerful. So I never found it hard to suppose that God might manifest Himself in different ways, even at the same time. Jesus, in my mind, was always God: He took human form and even if He was made of "flesh and bones" that didn't make Him any less God than before. Also, I concluded that the act of taking the form of Jesus while the Father was still in Heaven, didn't make God become "two gods" or anything like that... Even if God was in "two different places" (Heaven and Earth) at the same time, it was still only one God. With respect to the Holy Spirit, the same thing. In any case, I never, never believed this to be the only explanation... It was just something I made in my mind, to find certain "logic" in what I was being taught. As with many other things in my life, I thought that if I was wrong God would show me someday. For example... Back then, even if I thought that Jesus was God, there was always that thing about Him being, somewhat, different to the Father. I think all the EGW/SDA stuff about Jesus being mainly our example and what else got a way into my mind. I always struggled with the concept of the Trinity... But after I understood that Jesus IS fully God, then things became a lot easier. And that thing we're talking in the forum lately, about not needing to know everything, just trusting and resting in Jesus... That is one of the things that I'm enjoying the most lately. It's a real relief. I think that, as Adventists, people feel that they need to know exactly what's going to happen, where they are going and how they have to do it... That's why, for example, that picture in the SS quarterly shows Jesus pointing where to go and the people looking towards that direction. I guess that is because of the lack of assurance about their salvation... If you are not sure if you're saved, then you better know all you can. That thing that will make me "right" must be somewhere, and if you go deep enough or somebody has a special revelation, then we'll find it. In the end, everything becomes salvific because you can never be completely sure what is really relevant among a hundred things... There will be a million "yes but..." And people will follow the way that their Jesus points at, but walk it alone. And that can be terrifying. To have somebody with you all the time who knows the way, simply because that person IS the way, makes a huge difference. That difference is that, as persons who trust and follow Jesus, we do not need to know exactly where we are going or how is it going to happen... We know that the end will be good, because the guide is good. You can rest because somebody else, who knows exactly what he's doing, has taken all control. You look where that person is going, not exactly where to go. I think that for many Adventists, and probably other people as well, their "assurance" comes from what they know, from the knowledge they've gained. But Jesus was very clear when speaking with the pharisees, as it says in John 5:39-40: 39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, In the end, the real assurance does not come from what we learn, even if that is from the Scriptures. The Bible will be useless if, in the end, we do not go to the One who gave it to us. I think that the real assurance comes from the Spirit of God telling us, directly, that we're His children, part of His family. Romans 8:15-17: 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." Somehow, you just know. Please, comment anything that you wish. I'm always learning, so I'm open to listen to anything. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4806 Registered: 9-2006 |
Heck, I feel for you brother, I really do, it don't hurt to reach out and try to understand. This might help you. On the mountain where Moses receives his orders, he also wanted to know who God was. Gods answer, 'I am that I am' and I think Moses could not have understood who God was, so God gave him the best answer, it wasn't that God was wanted to conceal himself, its just that we can't take who he is in. Look, one time years ago I was fasting and praying, I fasted three days, I had never fasted in my life so you can imagine how long three days were to me. Anyhow, on the third day I was in my bedroom praying and asking God to come closer to me, asking Jesus,I wanted it in the worst way I thought. Well, he did and it literally caused so much pain to my body I ask him immediately to pull back, his holiness is beyond description and we can't live in it, our bodies just can't live in that. I don't care how good you think you are, you can't live if God comes close to you, I have heard people say 'I want to see Jesus.' No you don't if you want to live. God told Moses 'you can look at my hinder parts.' That doesn't mean Gods back side, it was a portion and it had a great effect on Moses. We have a portion of his spirit, or as the Bible puts it, we see in part. I pray that God will satisfy your hunger to know him more. keep seeking and he will show you just enough. Praying for you Hec now this minute, my heart reaches out for you to God. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 4807 Registered: 9-2006 |
Good post Martin. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9846 Registered: 12-2003 |
Martin, interesting thought processes. The thing that most resonated with me was your statement that once you realized Jesus was fully God, things got a lot easier. Yes!! The Sabbath School lesson quarterly with Jesus pointing is typical of cultic representations of Jesus. Steve Pitcher, in his introduction to the quarter's lessons at www.BibleStudiesforAdventists.com points out that the cults always portray Jesus as the "way-shower", not as "The Way". The artist of the quarterly illustration accurately portrays Adventists view of Jesus: follow the leader; emulate the example. Only one person on the cover actually has his eyes on Jesus. Everyone else is looking where Jesus is pointing. We are never to look anywhere but Jesus. He Himself IS the Way. He is not a guide, a way-shower, an example. He is our Substitute, our Savior, our God. He Himself IS the Way. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 156 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks all for your prayers and your explanations. Both are needed. My problem is not with Jesus being fully God. Or the Spirit. I understand that the three are FULLY God. If it could be explained relationally rather than essentially, then it would be easier. But how do I tell a SDA, "Hey, SDAs have it wrong when it comes to the Trinity." and he asks me back, "and what is the correct biblical teaching". I answer, "One God in Three persons". Then he says, "That's what I just said". How do I explain to him that he is mistaken and I am correct? The minute that I cannot explain to him, and tell him "is a mystery" he will say, "see we have it right, we can explain it, what right do you have to tell me that I'm wrong when you cannot explain what's the right way? Hec | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2008 Registered: 8-2004 |
God is the identity of an entity not a genre or category. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2743 Registered: 10-2004 |
Good summary, Mary! Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2745 Registered: 10-2004 |
Also, Hec, here is a fundamental difference between the two views: 1. The Christian view is that God is three persons in one Being (monotheism). 2. The SDA view is that God is three Beings, who aren't actually "one" at all, except in purpose, character, etc. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9849 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hec, another thing: Adventists believe that Jesus could have failed, that Jesus had no advantage I don't have. But Colossians 1 describes a Jesus who is very different. He absolutely had an advantage over me; He WAS God, even when He was man. He still held the world in place (Col 1:16). Moreover, He had a living spirit. He was not born as Adventists believe they were born: body + breath. He was spiritually alive from conception. I was taught that a family sort-of represents the Trinity: three people with the same name but different functions and identities. Definitely not the same substance! The Trinity, however, is One God and is of one substance. Colleen | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 237 Registered: 10-2008  |
When I was SDA I believed or accepted a modalistic interpretation that one of my SDA pastors taught. What helped me was listening to the Bible Answer Man show and hank Hanneegraaf when explaining the Trinity always refers to the Hebrew Shema in Deut 6:4 and also says in the trinity we have 1 "What" with 3 "Whos" and another thing he says is virtually every heresy out there begins with a denigration or misrepresentation of the Trinity | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 158 Registered: 3-2009 |
I never accepted the "Jesus is our example, therefore he has the same nature as we do" junk. I always thought that Jesus is "the second Adam". He took up where Adam let off. So he has Adam's nature before the fall with he difference that Adam was on "probation" while Jesus had it guarantee due to being God. I have no problem with ONE God in three persons in substance not relation. I believe the Bible says that. I just wished I could explain how that happens.How do I make my mind understand it, not just take it "by faith". Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9851 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hec, I don't know how we "understand" it mentally. 1 Corinthians 2 is clear that spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Actually, Hannegraaf's statement Enoch quoted above it good: 1 "What" and 3 "Whos". We have no physical frame of reference for One God expressed in Three Persons, with all of the fullness of God dwelling in each one. It is a spiritual and eternal reality we have to accept by faith. Moreover, Jesus WAS the second Adam, but he wasn't just like Adam. He was 100% God, and even though He was also 100% human (another eternal mystery God has not explained but merely stated), God cannot fail. Jesus was sinless because He was born spiritually alive, not dead, and He could not fail because God cannot sin. Only a human, a sinless human, could die for human sin—shed human blood, pay the price for human depravity. But only our Creator could actually put death to death and rise from the grave. So you were right not to believe that Jesus was "just like we are" even though that notion was overtly taught to many of us! Colleen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 797 Registered: 5-2007 |
I am convinced that Adventism teaches a "Godhead" rather than the Trinity but uses "smoke and mirrors" to make people think they accept the Trinity. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 179 Registered: 3-2009 |
SDA uses the term "Godhead" a lot more than the term "Trinity". That's for sure. Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9866 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actually Reb, I've had the same thought. Good to see you again! Colleen |
