| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 236 Registered: 5-2007 |
This was from an riddle I saw on the net. It got me to thinking. How much wonder can be discovered in the everyday things around us. Did you know. In relation to the road. A car traveling 60 MPH. It's wheels are traveling at 60 MPH, 120 MPH, and ZERO MPH, all at the same time! How can this be? Yet, if you study it on a piece of paper and work it out. You discover that the bottom of the wheel is traveling at Zero (in relation to the road), otherwise you would be skidding, that as the wheel rotates to the top it accelarates to 120 mph, then as it passes from the top and rotates downward it deacellaerates to zero as it reaches the road surface. Meanwhile. the front and rear face of the wheel match exactly at 60 MPH. Thus the paradox is solved and there is no paradox after all. In like manner, this is how I "attempt" to approach theology and doctrine. Religon in general. When I read a theory, an explaination. When I am presented what seems to be a paradox. A conflict , or simply a new lesson. I want to know how they came to the conclusion. What tool did they use. What rule did they apply to their reasoning or logic string. Like the wheel. Though it seemed wrong at first. With a closer study, the rules matched, the math was consistant and the paradox removed. This leads me to the problems I face presently. There are steps in the process of accepting or rejecting theories about doctrines that require going to the roots, the tools of thinking. If the writer presents a theory or teaching. Does the rule(s) used run consistant with the application. What I have seen happen so many times is that the rule or tool used falls apart in the concept when presented as a whole. When attempting to complete the circle. Thus , in attempting to remove the paradox. Each element of a argument or logic debate has to be viewed to verify if it holds true to its own argument from the start to the end. One of my problems is sometimes, there is not enough info to prove or disprove a point. Or, it gets so nebulous you get lost and memory fails you. (Which is why "simplicity" is often the first and best answer). So I do not say there is no answer to lifes questions, to religon, to the hard things. But what I do say is this. It has to be consistant with the tools used all the way through. Because , invaribly, the hidden error will present the conflict before you can close the circle. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 224 Registered: 5-2007  |
Jim, Talk about lack of complete data to narrow down the answer, was your example about speed or velocity? And, the last time I measured rotation (the turning of the wheel), the units were expressed as RPM, etc. However, your real puzzle seems to be about life and you appear to be looking for more data than you already have at hand. When you study the writings of Paul in the New Testament, he keeps bringing each and every issue back to Jesus Christ and him crucified. Whatever the problem you are considering, that is the simplicity you are looking for. Phil | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 123 Registered: 6-2007 |
Jim - I think you think too hard!  I do understand where you are coming from (I think!) I have a tendency to want to understand every little detail, to have proof of everything. That doesn't work with God. That's what faith is all about. You either have it or you don't. And if you have it, let the other stuff go. It's really pretty simple. There are many many things in life, in religion, in the Bible that we just don't have the answer for. Do we really need to know every little answer to every little question (or big question)? No. Like Phil said... Christ and Him crucified and risen! That's it! Laurie | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 237 Registered: 5-2007 |
The example was about seeming paradoxes, not semantics. I am looking for consistancy that is self verifying and self evident. That agrees with its own rules, premise of logic etc throughout any given concept, essay or teaching. I used a random example of how things can seem impossible but when tested prove themselves out. BTW I was expressing relational velocity of the surface of the wheel in relation to the road. I never mentioned RPM. Besides, it was merely an example not the point itself. But what happens is people get hung up on a tangent and away we go. Thus , even in this example. Thoughts get disolved. I have laid the ground work. I suppose for myself alone. I had hoped it would serve the purpose of explaining my "odd postings" as it were. How I process information. I think , in the future. I will hopefully be far more concise and lock on target to specifics. I wonder , If I said the wiring required connection to the white wire. Someone would come along and say. "Well, you know, white is all colors combined in the true spectrum of light" (getting lost in redefinitions) "I will just pick any color. They are all equal." Now let's see if that works? | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 245 Registered: 10-2006 |
Jim, You could try Ellen White. She was self verifying and self evident. Just kidding. Lighten up dude, don't take yourself so seriously. You have every right to be as confused as the rest of us. It's the uncertainty and unknown that drive us to the Cross. Dig it. steve | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 125 Registered: 6-2007 |
Jim - When my car stops working and I take it to the mechanic to be fixed, I don't need to understand how he fixed it. I don't have a clue how an engine works in the first place. I don't want a detailed explanation of what the mechanic did. I want to trust him and feel safe in my car. When I go to the doctor because I am sick, I don't need to understand how he diagnosed me. I don't need to understand the chemistry of the medication he prescribes. I just need to trust him and feel better after following his instructions. I know you are thinking these are simple little examples in the grand scheme of life. But that is it exactly - simple! Jesus created me, loves me, died to save me, and rose from the dead to be my living King of Glory. What more do I need to worry about? Laurie | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 126 Registered: 6-2007 |
Steve Although you were kidding in your comment about EGW (which was VERY funny by the way)... there was much truth in that comment. Faith is not self verifying and self evident... faith is faith! Laurie | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 238 Registered: 5-2007 |
Laurie, I agree that I do indeed often think too much , or over analyize a subject. I consider the fact that there are many types of people in this big world and we all have patterns that fill the whole of life. I am talented at detail work and I am involved in technical work in my daily routines. In my company , I am the go to guy for "make it go". So yes, I am very detailed oriented. It's my job. But when it comes to religon. If I cannot understand building blocks of a doctrine and get it settled in my mind. Then I am unable to authenticate and endorse. Why is this so important? Because , failing to do so is exactly how I got miss led in the past. If I am responsible for my errors, then teh only way to resolve the errors is to learn the facts and do my best to connect the dots. I know people have offered the basics of Christ is the answer. But in the scheme of accountability, Law and judgement day. It does matter. "Make it go", is not a answer, it is simply the result. I do not need to know how God does things or even why. That is what faith is about , trust. But if I am to obey, then I have to understand the command. Unfortunately, there so many interpretations to the commands, that I cannot arrive at a settled agreement on any starting point. Yes, I have a simplicity mode. I understand what you mean. I am trying to get there. But I have to clear up the basics first. I am laying the foundations. I have begun with Christ. I am simply trying to understand the commands. | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 127 Registered: 6-2007 |
Jim The pharisses tried to get Jesus involved in explaining every detail of the law and commands in the old testament. Just remember his reply.... Love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. All the law and prophets hang on these. It is simple! Just have faith! Laurie | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4358 Registered: 3-2004  |
Jim, Read the Bible starting with the Gospel of John, then the other gospels and the rest of the New Testament, then the rest of the Bible-the OT. I say John first because it shows how much God loves us. Before reading any of the Bible ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. I have a son who is detail oriented like you. I continue to pray for you. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6911 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, I do understand the issue of paradox and how seeming paradoxes ultimately must make sense, or we have chaos. I've mentioned before that Christian psyciatrist M. Scott Peck said in his book A Different Drum that truth is always a paradox (i.e. God is both transcendent and immanent; we must lose our lives to find them, etc.). If you teach one half of the paradox, you teach a heresy. The "problem" with paradox as it relates to spiritual things (which ultimately means reality) is that from our limited persepctive, we cannot make the paradox resolve. We are left in tension because we have no means of seeing both from the perspective of time and also of eternity. When it comes to ultimate reality, we have to accept the tension of unresolved paradox and know that both parts of the paradox—if they are biblical teachings—are true. We just aren't supposed to be able to explain them. If we try, we lose the power of the elements of the paradox. I realize how much like a cop-out is sounds to say, just hang onto Jesus. Yet here's the mystery that is becoming gradually clearer to me: He actually IS the "place" where the paradoxes are resolved. How much more of a paradox can there be—eternal, almighty God did not give up any of His "God-ness" and became 100% human? That's truly a paradox. And when we struggle with God's transcendance and concurrent immanence, for example, when we look at Jesus both historically and as our own Savior who has brought us to life by His own death and personal indwelling, the inexplicable mystery can be "experienced", even if not completely articulated. Or when we look at losing our lives to save them—Jesus, again, is the place where this concept begins to resolve, even though we cannot fully explain it. In the person of Jesus, this paradox played out. Because of Him, this paradox can play out in our lives as well, and again, because of Jesus we can begin to understand and experience this paradox, even though we cannot fully explain it. I cannot actually think of any paradox that doesn't begin to resolve when I return to Jesus and look at it through what I know and experience of Him. And the more I immerse myself in the Bible with conscious submission to the Holy Spirit to learn truth, the more these paradoxes of reality become visible—and the more real they seem while I also find myself unable to explain them. Jesus is not merely a simple "mantra" or "icon" which we hold onto in order to avoid being swept away by what we don't understand. He is literally the One who reveals and resolves the paradoxes of reality. He, as our Savior and Lord and King and God, IS a paradox! I've found that I can't rush these things. Jesus Himself fills me and keeps my heart at peace, and He reveals more and more reality gradually over time. I do, bottom line, have to honor the deceptively simple command Jesus gave: love the Lord our God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength, and my neighbor as myself. And for this command—the new commandment Jesus gave—I must depend upon my acceptance of Him and of the new power He gives in the Person of His Spirit. He must be the ground and goal of every belief. Studying doctrines apart from knowing Him as revealed in Scripture will drive us crazy! Colleen | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 246 Registered: 10-2006 |
Jim, On a more genuine note, you might enjoy a book I finished recently. It is "Knowing the Unknowable God (How Faith Thrives on Divine Mystery)" by James R. Lucas, published by WaterBrook Press. I found it on Amazon and you should be able to preview it there. The subject is contradictions in the Bible and how they are actually expuisite paradoxes that enlarge our understanding of God. steve | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 239 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen and Steve, Thank You. Jim02 | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 239 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jim, the gospel is only a riddle to those that are perishing. What is your specific question about the Gospel? All your other stuff is just fluff if you have questions about the gospel, so just lay them out in the open if it is confusing to you. Paradox's, riddles and tools will not save you. Knowing all about how wheels rotate and deacellaeration have no bearing on understanding the Gospel. Please pray the Holy Spirit to flood you with truth of Gospel. All this stuff about sorting through this doctrine or that is filler if you do not believe in the true Gospel. Any doctrine besides the true Gospel will not save you one whit. Once the Holy Spirit infills you, He will lead you to whatever doctrine is good and pure. Let Him figure that out. It is your job to trust Him at this point. You are not saved by your smarts, but only by obeying the Gospel, which is to believe. Only belief in the true Gospel of Lord Jesus will save you. Think of it as trying to look thru a 20 foot long piece of conduit pipe. If you are even slightly off, you cannot see the whole distance thru. It is an absolute MUST that you being looking at that hole dead on. |
