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Message |
Markmartin
Registered user
Username: Markmartin
Post Number: 29
Registered: 8-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 11:10 pm: |     |
Hi Dennis,
You are a long-time forum member and I am a "newbie" and thus, what I write, I share with great respect, honoring you for your strong desire to stand for the truth. In this spirit I would like to share the following:
I have been involved with Calvary Chapels for 23 years. Perhaps this would give me insights to share with you in this discussion about what Calvary Chapels believe. I do not wish, on this forum to unduly draw attention to Calvary Chapels, but I feel it would be irresponsible for me not to respond to your last post. I do so because what you have shared insinuates that I, as a Calvary Chapel pastor would believe in or receive, or God-forbid, --give extra-biblical revelation. Whether you did this intentionally or not, you have called into question the reputation of the prominent ministries of Calvary Community Church, Calvary Chapel, ExAdventist.Com, and Ellenwhite.org,. You, in your sweeping statement that we endorse extra-biblical revelation have called into question our integrity and our commitment to 'sola-scriptura.' Beyond being offensive and giving the enemies of the Gospel an opportunity to attack us by misrepresentation, you have put us in the camp of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and most insulting of all, from my standpoint, --the Seventh-day Adventist Church. What are you thinking?
Unfortunately it is necessary to clarify what we really believe on this issue because you have misrepresented us and beclouded our ministries in a public forum. We paid a huge price to leave Adventism, not because we were testy or argumentative. We left over issues like our refusal to accept the extra-biblical revelations of Ellen White. Now, would you accuse us of promoting such things as extra-biblical revelations? Was it your intent to cause the many thousands and thousands of people who have left Adventism as a result of these ministries to question our basic commitment to the Bible alone? You have called our ministry into question whether it was your intention or not, so this is as good a time as ever to clarify what we believe.
(Again, Dennis, I appeal to you with respect, appealing to you as a father, with thanksgiving to our Lord for the way He has used you many times).
It may be helpful to some for me to clarify Calvary's position in the light of what you said.
Calvary Chapel does not believe that an utterance of tongues is an extra-biblical revelation or a message from God. The very thought is appalling. One of the basic problems with this discussion is that you don't know what Calvarys believe about the use and practice of speaking in tongues, and you might not even care. Perhaps if one is convinced of a cessationist position the differences that make Calvary Chapel unique are unimportant. But the lack of understanding has led you to inadvertently (I hope) misrepresent our churches.
The Calvary position on an utterance in tongues in an assembly of believers (and I have explained some of this in more detail in a very recent post)has always been that one who speaks in an unknown tongue "...does not speak to men but to God;..." (1 Cor. 14:2). The content of an utterance of tongues is always God-ward. New Testament "prophecy" is directed towards people. (1 Cor. 14:3). This is a major difference between Calvary Chapels and many other charismatic churches who also love the Lord Jesus. If an utterance of tongues is interpreted it would not be received at a Calvary Chapel unless it was a message of praise or thanksgiving directed towards God. This is in perfect harmony with the teaching of the Apostle Paul. Paul wrote that the content of the Corinthian's utterances in tongues was blessing God (vs. 16a) and "...giving of thanks..." (vss. 16b; 17). He also added
that they were doing this "well enough" (vs.17).
While they speaking in tongues they were not speaking to each other, they were speaking to God. It taught them that if believers wished to encourage one another while "at church" (vs. 19), they were to prophecy, that is, speak words of edification, exhortation or consolation to one another(1 Cor. 14:3).
The content of these words of exhortation, edification or consolation are not to be considered as inspired by God as the church is to "judge" the prophecy (vs. 29). (Paul and the other apostles do not invite believers to "judge" their inspired words as seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:8).
There is not even a hint that those who were speaking in tongues were giving "extra-biblical revelation." The content of the utterances in tongues was worship, praise and thanks to God.
Calvarys do not believe that the content of tongues are inspired, canonical or revelatory. To imply this directly or indirectly is to grossly misrepresent Calvary's position and borders on the absurd. These kinds of
accusations are inaccurate and reveal an ignorance of Calvary's beliefs and practices.
These kind of accusations reflect poorly on one's research and sources.
I understand cessationist arguments. I once believed them and taught them passionately, but I do not believe that position is biblically tenable anymore. Neither do I feel the need to misrepresent or disparage my brothers and sisters in Christ who do not accept my position on spiritual gifts. I want to uplift Jesus, His grace, His Gospel and see as many people come into the Kingdom before it's too late for them. Millions of people are dying every day and going to hell and here we are having to mop up things like this. It would be much more fruitful and profitable for a person to talk to a Calvary Chapel leader or visit a Calvary Chapel church in your town to gain first-hand knowledge and experience. I know that a forum is a place to share ideas and in this case truth. I hope this post corrects the misrepresentation of Calvary's ministries you have promoted.
The Lord bless you,
Pastor Mark |
Markmartin
Registered user
Username: Markmartin
Post Number: 30
Registered: 8-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 11:29 pm: | |
Dennis your post is offensive. You, again make sweeping statements ex cathedra, judging your brethren in Christ: "...Whether they admit or not, it is highly evident that some former Adventists actually somehow miss the extrabibical revelations of Ellen White and the "divinely-appointed" decrees of the SDA hierarchy. This unique combination makes an Adventist feel very special, comfortable, and even arrogant. Consequently, this is the reason why former Adventists are especially vulnerable to the extrabibical revelations in tongues speaking. Charismaticism effectively restores their feeling of superiority over others and gives them extrabiblical revelations at the same time. Obviously, nothing is gained by exchanging one deception for yet another."
Dennis what you are saying is not logical and sounds irrational. You are now throwing mud and are sounding desperate in your attempt to disparage your brothers and sisters in Christ. Somehow you equate speaking in tongues with feeling "superior." That is an unrighteous judgment on your part.
The Lord bless you,
Pastor Mark |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1255
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 12:20 am: | |
Susan,
Until around the year 2000, the Worldwide Church of God was not charismatic. They limit tongues-speaking to times other than worship services which is common among charismatic churches. They also now teach that one can obtain salvation after death. When I challenged the local WCG pastor about their new belief in salvation after death, he was really short with me. This is another evidence that cults cannot be reformed. There is a lingering vulnerability for accepting and being attracted to the unusual and the unorthodox (similar to former Adventists). I know some WCG members personally. You would be shocked to hear about their intense interest in strange TV preachers, obscure ministries, etc. I have often written letters and emails to them to help them overcome their cultic mindset. At a WCG social occasion, I overheard a lady saying she was interested in checking out the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Interestingly, their new stance on tongues-speaking and salvation after death were formulated solely by their hierarchy--similiar to their doctrinal changes in 1995 (a top-down approach). The local WCG congregation, here in Lincoln, Nebraska, used to number about 150 members and now attendance is down to less than 15 people on most weekends. Oh yes, they also give you the option of believing in soul sleep or the traditional view. Also, the local churches are allowed to choose which day they want to worship on--Saturday or Sunday or both. Of course, all these changes create alot of discord among the WCG members. Although many of their doctrines have changed, their hierarchical structure has not yet changed.
Dennis Fischer |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1032
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 2:40 am: | |
Pastor Mark, THANK YOU. I agree and disagree at different points, but the SPIRIT of what you said is right on, and you are so correct that we are wasting time cleaning up this kind of thing.
Equating every little thing we disagree on with "extra-canonical revelations" or with Ellen White would be fear-mongering. The way in which we "prove" things are false is just as important as the information itself. If we use fear, conjure up unfounded accusations, do poor research, and then draw associations with these to SDA/EGW, we are just playing on peoples' fear. We may think we are defending the Truth, but we are not using His ways.
I'm not innocent of this, yet by His grace, by His grace...! |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 210
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 10:44 am: | |
Dennis, I don't want to "gang up on you," but I wanted to reply a little. I don't know much at all about speaking in tongues, so I asked the person whom the Lord used to bring me out of the Adventist church. (She prays in "in the Spirit" everyday!)
She said:
1. "If I saw all that, I wouldn't believe in it either."
2. "If the devil can't get you to do wrong, he tries to get you to do right-wrong." (By that she meant people who do all that weird stuff like the physical acrobatics, and bringing shame on the cause of Christ.)
3. "The gift speaks of the Giver, not the recipient. If anyone is feeling superior, that's wrong!"
She said that some people drive their cars crazy and asked if driving should be outlawed as a result. She said that a person should be led by the Spirit.
I've personally seen her praying in tongues. She doesn't get "revelations" or anything. Instead, her praying in tongues is God's will being prayed instead of her own will. Sometimes she has no idea what to pray for in a certain situation, but God knows. Also praying in tongues edifies her own spirit; makes her strong in her faith. She witnesses to a LOT of people in darkness and that gives her a boldness to witness. (She's naturally a shy person.)
Also, she doesn't do the weird stuff that you mentioned, Dennis.
Dianne |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1256
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 7:42 pm: | |
Dianne,
Thank you for your comments. Apparently, some charismatics behave better than others. Indeed, "self-control" is an important fruit of the Spirit (see Gal. 5:23). First of all, I am delighted to learn that your charismatic friend helped you to decipher the deception of Adventism from the light of the Gospel. What a great friend you have! We can never have too many good friends. Truly, having a wonderful Christian friend is the ultimate of blessings. I likewise will be forever grateful to many people who prayed and helped me to get the Gospel right. This doesn't translate, however, into my agreeing with all those prayer warriors on every facet of theology. After all, salvation is from the Lord. Our sovereign God deserves to receive all the glory for our salvation.
Does the evidence show that charismatic churches are, on the whole, spiritually stronger and more solid than Bible-believing churches that do not speak in tongues? If the movement does not produce more spiritual Christians or believers who are better informed theologically, what fruit is it producing after all? And what of the many former tongues-speakers who testify that they did NOT experience genuine peace, satisfaction, power, and joy until they came out of the tongues movement?
It is significant to note that Pentecostals and charismatics cannot substantiate their claim what they are doing is the biblical gift of tongues. I know of no authentic, proven cases where any Pentecostal or charismatic has actually spoken in an identifiable, translatable language. Charismatic proponents have given no evidence, other than their assumption, that these are the same phenomena as the New Testament gift.
One of the basic reasons for the growth of tongues is the need for acceptance and security. People need to be in the "in group." They want to be among the ones who "have it," and they cringe at the thought of being among the have-nots who are on the outside looking in. It is very satisfying for some to be in the charismatic movement. It is a form of self-actualization to be able to say, "I am a charismatic." It makes many people feel like they are somebody, like they belong to something, like they have something others do not have. This mindset is particularly engrained in some former Adventists. After leaving Adventism, they can sometimes feel like a ship without a sail.
The miracles of the apostolic age were not to be the pattern for succeeding generations of Christians. Charismatics are caught in a terrible tension as they try to hold onto the Bible while at the same time making experience their real authority. We have no mandate to seek or perform miracles. We do have a mandate, however, to study and obey God's Word, which is able to make us wise and mature. And we do have a mandate to live by faith, not by sight (2 Cor. 5:7).
His grace still amazes me,
Dennis Fischer |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 274
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 7:49 pm: | |
There are some things about this discussion that are jumping out at me, with my recent background in the Eastern Orthodox church. Dennis says that one reason he does not believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in use is that any revelation recieved through, let's say, prophesying, would be an addition to the revelation we have in the Bible.
But really, to me that doesn't add up; If a person is going to take a very strict Sola Scriptura position, then whose interpretation of the Scripture will they follow? Obviously there is a need for interpretation! Does a person pray and ask the Holy Spirit to interpret the Scripture for them? That would be pretty much the same as the gift of prophecy. Or is an interpretation not "additional information" to the Scripture itself?
It seems a strict Sola Scriptura position makes more sense if you restrict yourself from taking anyone else's interpretation of Scripture unless it sounds correct to you. In other words "don't let anyone interpret Scripture for you".
But in that case, who can judge an SDA? I know plenty who can't come up with any other interpretations than what SDA's believe, try as they might! Even if they try to totally ignore EGW, they still only see SDA interpretation in Scripture. When you try to explain to them that there is a different interpretation, they will point to another Bible text and tell you that you contradict it if you disagree with them.
If the Holy Spirit reveals to one Christian that speaking in tongues is to be practiced today, and reveals to another that the gifts have ceased, isn't that first class evidence that it isn't the Holy Spirit revealing things? Otherwise the Holy Spirit is causing confusion, and God is not the author of confusion.
My conclusion on all this is that Scripture isn't the only valid revelation we have today; we also have the Church, which has kept the things handed down to it, and has been guided by Christ and the Holy Spirit from the beginning till now.
Jeremiah |
Markmartin
Registered user
Username: Markmartin
Post Number: 31
Registered: 8-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 8:11 pm: | |
Dennis,
Again, I don't quite get the sweeping statements you make, like your latest post: "One of the basic reasons for the growth of tongues is the need for acceptance and security. People need to be in the "in group." They want to be among the ones who "have it," and they cringe at the thought of being among the have-nots who are on the outside looking in." Where do you get this stuff? (Said with a big smile!) Have you done some big national or international psychological study of charismatic churches? Was this the scientific conclusion?
Who is suggesting (except you, --again...smile...) that churches that believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit are more spiritiual than non-charismatic churches? You seem to be clearly communicating that you believe non-charismatic churches are more spiritual than charismatic churches....is this right?
The Lord bless you,
Pastor Mark |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1257
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 8:35 pm: | |
Jeremiah,
It is specifically the sign or miracle gifts of the apostolic age (raising people from the dead and tongues or languages) that were not intended for succeeding generations of Christians. For example, when have we witnessed someone being raised from the dead? Never? Think about it, why not? It was definitely one of the sign gifts in the apostolic age.
Dennis Fischer |
Markmartin
Registered user
Username: Markmartin
Post Number: 32
Registered: 8-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 10:44 pm: | |
Jeremiah,
I'm reading a very interesting book right now, because I want to understand the Eastern Orthodox Church better. It's Anthony Coniaris's book, "Introducing The Orthodox Church, Its Faith and Life." It's used as a handbook for those who are training as converts. It's been a very interesting read. You bring up such an interesting topic, --authority in the Church.
The Lord bless you,
Pastor Mark |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1039
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 2:52 am: | |
**popping in**
Hi Jeremiah, it's been awhile! I pray you're well and blessed in the awesomeness of the Lord.
quote:If the Holy Spirit reveals to one Christian that speaking in tongues is to be practiced today, and reveals to another that the gifts have ceased, isn't that first class evidence that it isn't the Holy Spirit revealing things? Otherwise the Holy Spirit is causing confusion, and God is not the author of confusion.
I disagree with the logic of this argument, and I think you'll see why if I simply change some of the words:
quote:(reworded)
If the Holy Spirit reveals to one Christian that the Orthdox Church is correct, and reveals to another that the Mormon Church is correct, isn't that first class evidence that it isn't the Holy Spirit revealing things? Otherwise the Holy Spirit is causing confusion, and God is not the author of confusion.
One could easily look at the great amount of "denominations" or fellowships and conclude that since there are so many of them, that God is not the author of them because it is "confusing".
In the same way, I had a friend who attended a prayer meeting (in which a good chunk of people were on their way out of Adventism). Afterwards when talking to my friend, he felt that certain things could not be of the Holy Spirit because "the Holy Spirit is the Comforter, and it made me feel uncomfortable." I think if my friend ever becomes a father, he'll adjust that logic mightily quickly! Baby Timothy doesn't always feel comfortable with what I'm doing, but I am always trying to comfort him and sometimes he's gotta learn to trust me on that. 
I believe the need here is for the spiritual gift of discernment. Typical of the New Covenant theme of maturity, discernment is something of the Spirit, not of the letter. Discernment comes by exercise from walking with Him, and He grows us in it to maturity in Him.
Greatest blessings to you today in Jesus Christ!
Your brother,
Ramone
**popping back out... poof!**
(Message edited by agapetos on September 08, 2007) |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 275
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 8:00 am: | |
Hi Ramone,
I think the way Irenaeus would answer this question in the 2nd century is to ask the Mormon church for their list of bishops to see whether they were descended from the Apostles.
quote:1. It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to "the perfect" apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity.
2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.
The Church is a reality and even today the Orthodox church can show the lists of bishops succession back to the Apostles. If it wasn't right to have "unauthorized meetings" back in the 2nd century even before the council of Nicea, how can one claim any attachment to the church which defined the doctrines we all hold to be orthodox, but refuse to be in that church? The succession of bishops is not a new invention.
quote:7. We do indeed pray that these men may not remain in the pit which they themselves have dug, but separate themselves from a Mother of this nature, and depart from Bythus, and stand away from the void, and relinquish the shadow; and that they, being converted to the Church of God, may be lawfully begotten, and that Christ may be formed in them, and that they may know the Framer and Maker of this universe, the only true God and Lord of all. We pray for these things on their behalf, loving them better than they seem to love themselves. For our love, inasmuch as it is true, is salutary to them, if they will but receive it. It may be compared to a severe remedy, extirpating the proud and sloughing flesh of a wound; for it puts an end to their pride and haughtiness. Wherefore it shall not weary us, to endeavour with all our might to stretch out the hand unto them. Over and above what has been already stated, I have deferred to the following book, to adduce the words of the Lord; if, by convincing some among them, through means of the very instruction of Christ, I may succeed in persuading them to abandon such error, and to cease from blaspheming their Creator, who is both God alone, and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.
All quotes are from book 3 of "Irenaeus against Heresies".
Jeremiah |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1431
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 8:57 am: | |
Mark,
I would like to make an attempt at clearing up one of the gifts so misunderstood by so many.
That is the gift of tongues and interpretations.
First of all, what is tongues and interpretation?
Answer: It is the Holy Spirit speaking to his church today for the edification, comfort and exhortation of the church body (local) and it is a sign to the unbeliever.
What can we expect to hear if someone brings a message through tongues and interpretation?
Answer: Nothing but whatever has already been said in Gods Word, it may not be scripture quoted exactly but it will be according to the Spirit of scripture and readily identifiable as such if the interpretation is done correctly, because it is the Spirit of truth that speaks through yielded vessels to his glory, the same Spirit of truth that caused the Bible to be written.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth.
Now many folk interpret this tongues and interpretations business as “new revelation”, more especially folk of the cessation persuasion such as brother Dennis and they want nothing to do with it.
But there are many others who misunderstand what tongues and interpretations are, even among the same people who allow for this gift and so misunderstand the gift and the Word of God, go seeking for what I like to call “The Wow factor”. Misunderstanding of the Word of God and the gifts of God, I believe, is rampant in the churches today even on both sides of the isle.
I want to state my position on the canon, the canon was closed when Revelation was finished. God being God I suppose he has the ability to reopen it but he hasn’t so far that I know of and I don’t expect he will.
Now if you would care to take a look at Corinthians I 14:29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. (NKJV)
What are the “others” going to judge by accept the Word? We really have no other source by which to judge these things and if it don’t line up with the Word, it is the flesh and to be ignored at the least and corrected openly at the extreme.
Tongues and interpretation are just another form of the prophetic Word, but is meant for a sign to the unbeliever. It still must line up with the Word.
What I mean by Prophetic Word is THAT prophetic word that has already been spoken and written in scripture.
Now Dennis said in his post number 1256 “Charismatics are caught in a terrible tension as they try to hold onto the Bible while at the same time making experience their real authority.”
And yet he claims that there has been no such things as tongues for 1900 years and he judges the whole thing on his experience and that of his forefathers.
What is the difference? None, both are going on experience, what is the terrible tension that the cessation proponent is caught up in? He is caught up in an even more terrible tension than that of the charismatic because he has no scriptural defense for cessation. His premise is based entirely on experience and not the Word of God. He attempts to fall back on the weak defense of 1 Cor. 13:8 which is a defense so weak it is laughable. The reason I am so willing to challenge the proponent of cessation is because it does not line up with the Word and the proponents of cessation end up using language that is downright offensive and I think borders on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, I may be wrong, the Lord himself will judge that and his judgments may be slow but they are sure.
The Word of God coming to life in our lives IS an experience, the Spirit bearing witness with our spirits that the word of God is true is a huge experience.
I have witnessed this phenomenon of tongues and interpretations for a period of about 35 years, I have trained myself to follow patterns (or God has trained me), to observe the patterns and to recognize the fleshly out cropping that takes place within these churches.
The fleshly things going on, go on in all the churches, business deals being made at a place of gatherings of our love feast of Worship, all kinds of things going down that should not be, but it happens and that’s just reality.
I submit to you that we are caught up in a terrible tension of misunderstanding of the Word and failure to pattern our churches after it to a degree. And that especially applies to many of those of the “Pentecostal” persuasion.
I commend you Mark for at least an attempt to measure up to the Word, not that my commendations means spit to you. What impresses me is not necessarily the correctness of your procedure, but the great effort you have put into it in order that others may be blest abundantly and your heart for others, the hurting and the dying.
The greatest danger I see in the charismatic groups is to go chasing after the “Wow factor, they want God to “Wow” them with something new, they experience the gift’s and become jaded from lack of good sound Bible exposition and just downright raw Bible study and taking of the meat of God’s Word. It is not much good to blame the ministers when we have the responsibility of prayerful reading of the scripture ourselves.
Many cease to make Bible study a part of their lives and just go on the experience and word of whoever comes along without seeking the answers themselves out of the Word of God and in prayer. I have been guilty of that myself so I oughta know.
Could I argue that that is how Adventism got started? Or do you think that statement is at all justified?
Letting the Word languish and just going on yesterdays experience and teaching just don’t cut the mustard in my book, it is a living faith that must be lived today and every day of our lives. Allowing the Word to languish and just mimicking someone else just stunts growth in the Word which is what we need to grow in so that it dwells in our hearts, lives and experience richly.
This doesn’t nullify God’s Word nor Gods gift’s one whit, any more than saying they have ceased nullifies it. The Word will continue to be our source of truth and comfort in this last day if we allow it to be our comfort and guidance for living.
The propensity for former Adventist to fall out of Adventism and fall into the whatever teaching’s they land in and to adopt those teaching’s into their lives and take them for their own is very, very apparent to me from reading and writing on this forum for getting close on a year. Now this is not meant as a slight to ANYONE so don’t go making it out that I was critical of the former Adventist. I am just stating what I think I have observed.
Not that I think former Adventist should bunch up and start their own thing, I truly think God has a reason to sprinkle the churches of today with the former Adventist and will result in the blessing to the churches as well as themselves and although one part of the body is not independent of the other, still in all it behooves us to keep searching the scriptures and to prove all things by the scriptures instead of just mimicking the group we fall into.
If you blame me for what I am saying, then turn around and point the finger at yourselves because it was you that taught me it.
The mimicking of these churches come about for many reasons, as Dennis said “people want to feel that they belong” that’s one of the reasons and we end up being man pleasers instead of God pleasers.
I think where Dennis is wrong is that the growth of the tongues movement grows for that reason, I think God is doing a great work in the lives of a great many people.
As my old platoon sergeant used to say “quit bunching up like a bunch of sheep” “one grenade will kill the whole lot of you” Scatter out” what he meant was to follow him as the leader at a few paces apart. That applies here. (not me but the Word of God) We need to go along but search the scriptures and prove all things, not with arguments and adversary but in obtaining knowledge that will be a blessing in our own ministries and a credit to the good Word of God, not bringing shame on the cross of Christ through belligerent ignorance and we sure get belligerent with our ignorance at times don’t we?
We become ignorant and call it knowledge and then on top of that become proud of it and then say its “our way or the highway”. God forgive us.
River |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 712
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 2:36 pm: | |
Hi brothers and sisters,
I can only agree with Mark Martin that the issue of tongues should not be blown out of proportion and that we should be careful not to make sweeping statements. I believe this gift has served its purpose and has ceased and that the truth is in between the two stances, cessationism and continuanism. But I love my brothers and sisters who believes in tongues. I consider it an issue along with tithing, women in ministry and worshiping on the sabbath.
In His wonderful grace,
your brother in Christ,
Martin |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1046
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 8:20 pm: | |
Wow, Jeremiah, I don't know how to say this...
That stuff is freaky.
It is out of character with the writings in the New Testament, where Jesus promises to be with "two or three" who meet in His name. And it is out of character with Jesus when the disciples were upset about a man (who was not "with them") who was casting out demons in Jesus' name. Jesus, in contrast, said, "Do not stop him, for whoever is not against us is with us."
There is a point when even tradition must be subject to Christ as He has revealed Himself in the Scriptures.
I've begun to think of the writings of the church fathers as very similar to the rabbinical writings of Judaism. They are valuable and insightful, but do not carry the absolute authority that Scripture does. |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 277
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 12:05 pm: | |
More stuff in the freaky department for Ramone...
quote:CHAPTER V.--THE PRAISE OF UNITY.
For if I in this brief space of time, have enjoyed such fellowship with your bishop--I mean not of a mere human, but of a spiritual nature--how much more do I reckon you happy who are so joined to him as the Church is to Jesus Christ, and as Jesus Christ is to the Father, that so all things may agree in unity! Let no man deceive himself: if any one be not within the altar, he is deprived of the bread of God. For if the prayer of one or two possesses such power, how much more that of the bishop and the whole Church ! He, therefore, that does not assemble with the Church, has even by this manifested his pride, and condemned himself. For it is written, "God resisteth the proud." Let us be careful, then, not to set ourselves in opposition to the bishop, in order that we may be subject to God.
- Ignatius of Antioch to the Ephesians
You'd think that if the church of Ephesus with Onesimus as their bishop disagreed with these principles, Ignatius wouldn't have had so many wonderful things to say about them.
To me the evidence points to this being an integral part of Christianity.
Jeremiah |
Reb
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Username: Reb
Post Number: 677
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 12:34 pm: | |
I totally agree with you Jeremiah.
And the fact, that with the Orthodox Church, there is an unbroken chain going all the way back to the Apostles is very compelling.
I actually wish I could be Orthodox. |
Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 1050
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 11:04 pm: | |
It is very interesting and there is so much valuable in the old writings -- I don't mean to demean them. At the same time, humans are not perfect, and they were neither more nor less perfect than you and I are. They were just as capable of error as you and I are.
Someone once wrote, "God has no grandchildren", meaning that each of us are meant to experience God's direct Fathering and presence. It's for this reason that I want to meet His Spirit wherever I go -- whether it be Orthodox, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Methodist, Calvary Chapel, non-denominational or among any two or three, or even by my lonesome self in the shower or on break from work.
If someone appeals to their unbroken chain but advocates things which do not match the character of Christ as revealed in the Scriptures, I take it with a grain of salt. And if what I speak doesn't fit His character as revealed in the Scriptures, I hope my listeners would take it with a grain of salt, too! It's not about me, it's not about us, it's not about anyone's "church" -- the good news is about JESUS. |
Patriar
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Username: Patriar
Post Number: 392
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 6:27 am: | |
Agapetos,
I agree so much with that. We each have been given the Holy Spirit who will guide and teach us. While there is much wisdom to be gained from the church fathers, each was human and anything I subscribe to must align with Scripture.
I'm not sure if Jeremiah and Reb, you are saying that it's a nice thing to be part of a church that can trace it lineage back to the apostles or if it's a better thing than being in a protestant church or even RCC. I certainly don't want to misrepresent what you were saying.
Patria
(Message edited by patriar on September 11, 2007) |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6759
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 1:50 pm: | |
Ramone, well said.
Colleen |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6761
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 2:12 pm: | |
River, I just read your post above. (I had a really busy weekend and didn't read everything...)
You make some very good points. I agree with you that Adventism grew out of some sort of "pentecostal" fervor that was completely misguided. And I totally agree with you that former Adventists need to scatter throughout the body of Christ.
Hey, where are you? I miss you!
Colleen |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 293
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 2:07 pm: | |
I just found an article which goes into more depth concerning what Ignatius of Antioch believed and why he said what he said about bishops, presbyters, and deacons, than anything I've read before.
http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.11.en.the_ecclesiology_of_st._ignatius_of_antioch.01.htm
Here's a quote from the article;
quote:By the victory of Christ over death and Satan he who believes in the flesh of Christ is restored to the communion of the life and love of God in union with his neighbors and loves "nothing but God only." (Ign. Eph. 9, 11; Mag. 1.) "It is therefore befitting that you should in every way glorify Jesus Christ, who had glorified you, that by a unanimous obedience you may be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same opinion, and may all speak the same thing concerning the same thing." ( Ign. Eph. 2.) For St. Ignatius the primary characteristic of Christians is their corporate and selfless spirit of love and their complete unanimity of faith. (Ign. Eph. 20; Tral. 12; Phil. sal.; Pol. 6.) Faith and love for each other is one identical reality, as well as the beginning and the end of life in Christ. (Ign. Eph. 14.) Unity with each other in love is "a type and evidence (of teaching) of immortality." (Mag. 6.) "All these things together are good if you believe with love." (Ign. Phil. 9.) Faith is to "be gathered together (synaxis) unto God." (Mag. 10. Therefore in your concord and harmonious love Jesus Christ is sung." (Ign. Eph. 4.) Only in such a harmony of love can we know that we are partakers of God. (Ibid.) Therefore salvation and sanctification can be accomplished only by a unity of love with each other in the life of Christ. (Ign. Eph. 2.)
Jeremiah |
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