| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 221 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, This is a very loaded statement. What is meant by delibrately ? I hear people speak of our sin nature. What's the difference? "knowledge of the truth" In context: Define "The Truth" "no sacrifice for sins is left" This sounds like loss of salvation to me. You do you folks interpret and apply this passage? Comments ? | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 506 Registered: 8-2006 |
Hi Jim, I once struggled with this verse as well, when a member of my church, who struggled greatly with depression, kept me on the phone for hours talking about losing your salvation if you cherish sins. I believe that you can not lose your salvation, even if you deliberately sin, if you have trusted Jesus and follow Him. Jesus told us Himself that whoever comes to Him, the Father has given to Him and that NO ONE (not even us) can snatch them out of Jesus' hand! If you will read the 10th chapter, and indeed the entire book of Hebrews, I think you will come to see that this is talking about the superiority of the once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus rather than the sin offerings that were STILL being offered in the temple after Jesus died for our sins. If you know Jesus is the One who died for you and you have the truth of His once for all sacrifice for sin, yet you still go to the temple for the sin offering to forgive you, there is no sacrifice there that will cleanse you of your sin, and you will bear the judgment of God. In the sacrificial system, all sins had to be covered with the blood so that on the Day of Atonement, an Israelite would not be cut off from God's people. I believe what the author is saying is "look, Jesus is the way, He died for you, don't look back and go back to the old way of God forgiving your sins, because NOW you know the TRUTH about how He does". I believe this is also what he means by God is not pleased by those who turn back. Turn back to what? To the old way of the sacrifices, and trampling what Jesus did when He gave His own blood for us! I hope I have conveyed this somewhat clearly. I tend to ramble when I'm posting in a hurry, but Jim, I am impressed that you are still struggling, and I wanted to offer you hope. No sin we have committed, are committing, or will commit is too much for God to forgive us and to cleanse us. Jesus died for ALL our sin, even the sins we deliberately commit. Even the ones we don't want to do, but do anyway. I am praying for you, Jim. God is near you, and loves you so much, He died for you. In Jesus, Susan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6843 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, I agree with Susan above. The writer of Hebrews is speaking of the sin of apostasy. He is talking about trampling the blood of the covenant and insulting "the Spirit of grace" (v. 29). The "knowledge of the truth" is the truth of the gospel of Jesus. As Paul said in Romans 10:17: "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." When a person has clearly heard the truth about Jesus' once-for-all sacrifice for every sin and willfully rejects that sacrifice, there is no other sacrifice to which he can appeal. It's important to notice that the context of Hebrews 10:26-31 is an appeal NOT to fall into this hard-hearted, deliberate apostasy. This suggests that the people to whom he is writing have not committed the unpardonable sin. He is calling them to repentance, to have a heart soft toward God, to allow the Holy Spirit to fan their belief into flame. People who persist in trampling on the sacrifice of Jesus and continue to insult the Spirit of grace, however, do face a fearful eternity. In his book Bible Doctrine, Wayne Grudem summarizes what Jesus said in Matthew 12 and what is written Hebrews 6 about the "unpardonable sin" this way: "The context indicates that Jesus is speaking about a sin that is not simply unbelief or rejection of Christ, but one that incluces (1) a clear knowledge of who Christ is, (2) knowledge that the Holy Spirit is working through him, (3) a willful rejection of these facts, and then (4) slanderously attributing the work of the Holy Spirit in Christ to the power of Satan." So, Jim, we are kept by Jesus and the Father, and nothing/no one can snatch us out of their hands (John 10:29-30). Yet we are called to submit our temptations and internal rebellion and resentment and weaknesses to the Holy Spirit as we experience them. Because we are born from above, we now have the ability to choose! Without the Holy Spirit, we were doomed to fall prey to sin. We had no option; will power couldn't remove our sin. When we are born again, the Holy Spirit brings our dead spirits to life, and for the first time, we have true choice. We can choose to indulge the flesh, or we can learn to submit to the Holy Spirit. Read Romans 8. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Through Him the law of the Spirit of life has set us free from the law of sin and death. We will continue to be tempted and to sin because our now-living spirits are still dwelling in mortal tents. But because we are alive in Christ, we can learn to trust Him and to submit our weaknesses and temptation to Him, allowing His Spirit to make us willing to give up our compulsions and habits and allowing His life to transform the habituated responses in us. So yes, Hebrews 10 is saying that we don't have to look back to "penance", to self-inflicted punishment and agonizing over sin, to disbelieving that Jesus' blood could really be enough. I believe this passage is a call to true repentance. I remember during my divorce I felt absolutely hopeless. I knew I was not innocent; I believed that, despite what the Bible said, I couldn't be forgiven for clearly becoming party to such an emotional and personal mess. I had actually nursed the idea in the back of my "wordview" that if I avoided sin to the best of my ability, God would honor me. If I fell into sin that I could have avoided, He would not be able to honor me. I realized one day, when I felt I was dying inside, that all my efforts to avoid sin and to personally atone for whatever sins I did commit were worthless. I was hopeless and doomed, and no matter how good I wanted to be, I couldn't avoid being condemned because I wasn't good. At that moment God touched me in a way I'll never forget, and I knew He forgave me. That is what Hebrews 10 is about. We have to give up all our beliefs in our ability to expunge sin from our lives. There is no sacrifice we can make that can commend us to God as a pretty good guy. We have to throw ourselves on the mercy of Jesus. We have to place all our trust in His blood. The author of Hebrews is warning the Jewish converts to whom he's writing that they need to get over the belief that they can in any way perform any act of self-abnegation that will mitigate their sin in God's eyes. Once a person has heard the true gospel of Jesus, he is asked to place all his trust in that sacrifice and give up all claims to his own integrity. He must fully repent. From then on, his whole life, his hope, his security is Jesus, and for the first time he can give up the deep sense of shame and condemnation that is our natural heritage. Jesus is trustworthy. He died for us. He is faithful. He rose from death and ascended for us. He is our Mediator forever. For all eternity our future is secure when we are in Him because His blood is the blood of the eternal covenant, and He is our eternal Mediator and High Priest. Eternally we rest in Him. I'm also praying for you, Jim. Colleen | ||
| Lucybugg Registered user Username: Lucybugg Post Number: 91 Registered: 2-2007 |
The context indicates that Jesus is speaking about a sin that is not simply unbelief or rejection of Christ, but one that incluces (1) a clear knowledge of who Christ is, (2) knowledge that the Holy Spirit is working through him, (3) a willful rejection of these facts, and then (4) slanderously attributing the work of the Holy Spirit in Christ to the power of Satan." #4 sounds just like EGW and Adventism.... | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1497 Registered: 9-2006  |
Remember that we must study the word in context; this is one of the scripture used by folk who do believe that we can loose our salvation. But they end the study at these same scripture. Keep reading through the text till you get to Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Christians are not of those that draw back and abandon Christ, look at what he is saying here because this sentence is very important. True there are times when we all draw back, but not to perdition, so he goes from drawing back “unto perdition” to the belief we have, the faith we have, faith in Jesus cannot be defeated even by the threat of death, the faith we hold even unto the saving of the soul! River | ||
| Zjason Registered user Username: Zjason Post Number: 81 Registered: 11-2005  |
Hey! What you said about deliberately sinning after receiving a knowledge of the truth there remains no sacrifice for us. My old pastor used this verse as a means to try to coerce me to stop smoking a few years back. I had actually mustered up the courage to tell him one week that I'd like his prayers and support in my quest to stop smoking, since he was a former slave himself. I says to myself, "Surely he will be compassionate and know what I'm going through." He came to visit a few days later mid-week at our home and proceeded to give me spiritual "help". Basically telling me about how he quit (He had to, because he was going to be baptized and the elders at his church told him that he had to quit.) Then he became a pastor with amazing facts. Then he came to our church at the express invitation of our board, bypassing the minnesota conference altogether--you can do that when you have $$$$$$$$. I digress. Anyhow he told me that now that I had recieved a knowledge of the truth (about smoking) if I continued to smoke I was living in defiance of God's word, and that I was living in open sin, therby opening myself up to church discipline... My wife was sitting there just smiling as he said this. I wanted to commit a violent act against them both. But I managed to sit on my hands and just nod. I should have kicked his butt out the door right there, but that would only reinforce their perceptions that I was controlled by satan and they were right about me needing discipline... I still managed to be cordial about it all, but after he left I went out back and fired up a few I was so angry! I felt like I had been thrown under the bus. I came looking for help, an understanding heart, an arm around the shoulder. I got stomped on and kicked around by condemnation. Wasn't what I was looking for. Funny thing, when I had quit smoking in times past, I felt more close to God. That He could accept me that I was now not smoking. Then I would slip and start smoking again and all that closeness I felt went down the crapper. I have stopped smoking for about 11 months now (with the exception of a little bender a few months back), I am slowly realizing that it doesn't matter to God if I have a cigarette hanging on my lip or not. He loves me just as much, but it is still such a tremendously inconceivable concept to me I have trouble grasping it. Ugh it's late. Good night all. Jason | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 486 Registered: 7-2005 |
The best book regarding the assurance of salvation was written by John Owen, The doctrine of the Saints’ Perseverance Explained and Confirmed available online here http://www.ccel.org/ccel/owen/perseverance.html. It's a massive book, and it is not an easy reading, "solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil." Heb. 5:14 He argues from the immutability of God, the immutability of His purposes, covenant of grace, indwelling of the Spirit, and the intercession of Christ. It will provide the diligent reader with a comprehensive view regarding this subject, it has over 500 pages. More, it answers almost all the objections raised against the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. it was written to refute somebody who attacked the doctrine, and it refutes it well. Gabriel | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 225 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thank you all for your comments and insight. I am profited by it. Thank You, Jim | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1500 Registered: 9-2006 |
Zjason, I so resonate with your post and I just have to comment heavily on this subject. There is nothing like the plight of the smoker who has been saved and is caught between the church go’er and a habit he/she can’t seem to get rid of. It just makes him/her feel like crap and feel as if he is just something God drug into the church so somebody will have something to look down on. He’s caught between a rock and a hard place because he loves the Lord too much to stay out of church and his smoking habit makes him wish he didn’t have to go, so out of love for the Lord, he goes, makes sure he gets rid of his pack before entering the building, gargles twice before he leaves and his breath mints are his lifeline. Now they don,t call us Pentecostals “Holy roller’s” for nothing, you might as well be a blasphemer as to walk in some Pentecostal churches smelling of tobacco. I know this is going to be a long one, but I have to share with Zjason and the suffering I detect that he has went through. I recently attended a church awhile ago for a short time with a congregation of about 20, I had attended this same church about 25 years prior and it seemed to be a thriving church then and as I was looking for a church home so I went there, it was conveniently close, just a mile from my house. As I attended faithfully both Sunday, Sunday night, and Wednesday midweek services I soon saw things that didn’t sit right with my Spirit. To be blunt, they seemed to be “sign seeking” I will let you use your own imagination about that, they wondered among themselves why people would drift in there a few weeks and then would be gone. They reckoned it was because the people were refusing to give up sin and that’s why they didn’t stay. Now me living in a rural setting and not having a whole lot of choices such as one would have in larger city, I began to anguish over things that I couldn’t put my finger on exactly and as I sat here and prayed and thought about my plight, God gave me a “vision” that was much different than the vision that they had of themselves. I don’t mean I had a Ellen type of vision, but the vision of penetration into the things hidden from the eye, he gives these visions in story form, at times giving me the ability to penetrate to the very heart and soul of a matter and to come up with truth. So I said to myself “I need to go somewhere else and I prayed and I went and found the church I am presently in. What does all this have to do with smoking you ask? Thank you for asking I am sure you knew I was going to tell you anyway. Friends and fellow sufferer’s of what have you, I want and I need a church body of believers where “everybodys glad you came” and they accept the fact that there are things, habits, mannerisms, abuse histories, weight problems and such a myriads of other things that Christians go through at times and some spend their whole life battling with and it seems it never gets better. Job 6:8 Oh that I might have my request; and that God would grant me the thing that I long for! Now I am not advocating that we drag open sin and rebellion into the church groups and having a “anything goes” attitude, I am speaking of things that we struggle with while living in this body of flesh. Sometimes I think God left me with these problems just so I can have a heart for people. In the past in my anguish I said “God, you delivered me from alcohol and drugs and you work on this and that and leave me hanging with these problems I would like to be rid of and yet when I pray about it my prayers go no higher than the ceiling. Zjason said “Funny thing, when I had quit smoking in times past, I felt more close to God. That He could accept me that I was now not smoking. Then I would slip and start smoking again and all that closeness I felt went down the crapper.” I think the reality of this was that Zjason accepted himself in those times that he was able to not smoke and he felt more accepted by his Christian fellows and his problem of un-acceptance went away so he “felt” closer to God. Folks the un-acceptance we sometimes saddle ourselves and others with has nothing to do with the blood of Christ, our weakness of mind and body have nothing to do with his love and his blood covering. He loved us and was willing to die for us and yet we attend our little church groups and have to hide out from one another feeling like jumping in a hole and pulling the ground over our head. God allows things for our good and Satan tries to use that to jump in and hammer us into the ground with it and he’s got us robbing each other of prayer and victory. He probably thinks “I don’t have to steel their victory in Christ, all I gotta do is make’em feel like crap about themselves and they’ll do the job for me” “Just make’em feel lower than the fellow next too’em so they can all sit there and act “Holy”, because if they start praying for one another the first thing you know they’ll turn those prayers on me and run me outta there and you know how I like to walk up and down them isles tweaking and twanking on Christians. Is this what our salvation hinges on? lack of visible habits and problems? The vision I have struggled with of our churches for a long time now is that we don’t dare show weakness lest we be torn apart, like two male wolves continuously circling one another with suspicion and distrust. Got to keep up that alpha male appearance, show weakness and your dead so we continue to struggle alone and hurt alone. Alone in the middle of a crowd, thing about it is God sees and knows all about each one of us, but we sometimes sit there with a poker face and a broken heart and spirit and no one the wiser because we dare not show weakness. If our lip starts to tremble we bite down hard till the blood runs. I know of a deep hurt and struggle that my wife has struggled with for year on year and yet she doesn’t know that I know. Isn’t that weird? And no it isn’t about adultery or secret sins its just a human problem and a problem that millions suffer from. I said that to say this, if it goes on between husbands and wives then it probably goes on in the church because that is what the church is made up of, husbands and wives and children and we simply need to learn to reach out to one another and to pray for one another that we may be healed. Now all this does not mean that I advocate open confession of sins such as evil thoughts, adultery and what have you, if you’ve sinned, go to God and confess it he alone has power to forgive sin. Any time that you start an open confession of sin deal it’s gonna put somebody in the hurt locker and you can take that statement to the bank, I’ve seen it happen and the damage it can do. My advise is if you become involved in a group that becomes involved in that, get outta there, there’s a world of hurt coming down. So I’m not talking about confession of sins in a group setting I am talking about a little less condemning and a little more support for the hurting. So as Zjason said” I am slowly realizing that it doesn't matter to God if I have a cigarette hanging on my lip or not. He loves me just as much, but it is still such a tremendously inconceivable concept to me I have trouble grasping it” Zjason, you said a profound thing, the inconceivable love of God is something that we all have trouble grasping. I just want to say this as a parting shot, if God has reached down and saved you and still left you hanging out there with a Camel hanging off your lip, look up, look to Jesus, it is he that loved you enough to give you a new heart (now that’s real heart surgery medical people, bet you can’t do that!) so give him the time he so richly deserves instead of the time you spend with your head in the crapper and you will begin to “feel” that he loves you. River P.S. By the way Gabriel, I think R.C. Sproul has it down pretty pat, thanks for that quote. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6854 Registered: 12-2003 |
Zjason, River's right: your statement that "it doesn't matter to God if I have a cigarette hanging on my lip or not. He loves me just as much, but it is still such a tremendously inconceivable concept to me I have trouble grasping it” is profound. Jesus' desire for us is to know and trust Him. He gently shows us the things He wants to change in our lives, one thing at a time, as we submit to Him and simply trust Him and His eternal sacrifice for us. I continue to pray for you, and I am thanking God right now for how He is showing you how much He loves you. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6855 Registered: 12-2003 |
Gabriel, thanks for the R.C. Sproul quote. It was excelletn. Colleen | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 199 Registered: 5-2007 |
I agree with Lucybugg, but also #3 sounds like they have a little comprimise due to their muddying of the waters of #1 and #2. You know, egw did claim that the prayers of Bible believing Christians in her day were being answered by Satan, and that she and her little band of righteous saints were praying to the other power. You don't suppose she had it mixed up, do you? I think she satisfies point #4 on that count. She also said that regular Christians prayers were an abomination to God, as if hers weren't. I do have a question about RC Sprouls comment:
Does that sound ellenish? If we strive with all our might, will God do the rest? Does this make us co-workers in saving our souls? Do we lose salvation if we are a little lazy about the striving? Does it mesh with the sabbath rest of Hebrews 3 and 4? | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 418 Registered: 3-2005 |
Larry: Great question! I wanted to ask it myself. I'm curious to hear the answers. BTW: I ADORE Sproul's teaching. I think he is arguably one of the leading theologians of our time. This quote though, has me furrowing my brow a bit. I think it can be misleading. However, I saw nods of affirmation from people I highly respect in the posts above so I'm looking forward to hearing the responses. Patria | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1275 Registered: 4-2000  |
Larry, Obedience is an important element of faith. For example, Abraham not only had heroic faith or trust in God, but he actively acted upon his God-given faith by pursuing unknown paths. As Christ-followers, we are certainly not free to do just anything. We are not a lawless community. We are not a ship without a sail. We are given precise guidelines. The Bible provides God's revealed will for our lives. The primary work of the Holy Spirit is to lead us into righteousness (right doing). Even our faith is a gift from God. We have absolutely nothing of merit to bring to the table for our salvation--not even our fallen human will. We cannot choose what we do not desire. Without God first doing something supernaturally for us, we would never desire him precisely because we cannot act against our own will. Our sovereign God is not held hostage to our fallen will. Instead, the arm of grace reaches down to us. The redeemed will be forever grateful that God called them due to their being morally-incapable to choose him on their own. The unregenerate heart is in desperate need of a Savior and Substitute. On the other hand, those who adhere to the notion that God is totally at our mercy, for salvation, are actually saying, "God helps me to save myself." Such a bogus soteriological stance is nothing less than Adventist and Catholic dogma. Indeed, we are not the captains of our eternal destiny. It is God who takes the first step in behalf of our salvation--not us. As the Good Shepherd, Jesus seeks us, finds us, regenerates us, seals us through His Spirit, and adopts us as his sons and daughters into His wonderful family. Once adopted, we are never unadopted. Once reborn, we are never unreborn. Praise be to God alone! Truly, salvation is from the Lord. It is all about Him and nothing about me. However, God doesn't leave us aimless and purposeless in our Christian journey. In summary, there are definitely many things Christians will not do. Although far from perfect, God deserves our best allegiance because we love and honor him. After all, "We love, because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19 NASB). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 210 Registered: 5-2007 |
It still sounds ellenish when I re-read Sprouls quote. Strive with all our might, and the very next sentence suggests that without super striving you can lose your salvation (fall away). It does not square with "My yolk is light and my burden easy" Dennis. Plus it is at super-odds with the last paragraph you quoted - "Once adopted, we are never unadopted. Once reborn, we are never unreborn." Obedience: to the Holy Spirit, not the 10C's necessarily, unless you want to slip back into sda-ism. It was Abrahams faith that was accounted for righteousness we are told. Not his striving. He disobeyed the Spirit a time or two, and yet never lost his standing with God. So we know that obedience is not some sort of seal or test. If it is so easy for me to "fall away" because I didn't "strive with all my might" how come Abraham did not fall away? Can you say he strove with all his might 100% of the time, and this was accounted for his righteousness?? It does not square with your quote "Once adopted, we are never unadopted. Once reborn, we are never unreborn."
What precise guidelines are you talking about? The Israelites had some pretty precise guidelines, you know. Paul told us that all things were lawful. Is that what you mean by precise?
How do you see my questioning of Sprouls comment as holding God hostage to our fallen will? Are you copying and pasting something?
How is my questioning of Sprouls ellen-ish comment making me a captain of my own eternal destiny? You say it is God who takes the first step in our salvation. Who takes the second step? Are we able to? Are you implying that we have to take the second step, making ourselves co-redeemers? Don't you think that a saved person will cooperate with the Holy Spirit, His seal? And if this person fails the Holy Spirit, your quote still says "Once adopted, we are never unadopted. Once reborn, we are never unreborn." I still find it hard to square all your comments with my Sproul question.
The word "never" is pretty absolute, Dennis. What if I am a little lazy about the "striving with all my might" Dennis, is God going to unadopt me? Your last paragraph says He never will! If it is all about HIm and nothing about me, tell me how my striving amounts to a hill of beans? Did Abrahams striving count to God for something? I am not expert, and I am sure I have tons to learn, so fire away  Enough of my pointedness for now! (Message edited by Larry on September 23, 2007) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2167 Registered: 10-2004  |
Interesting discussion. I don't agree with the Sproul quote. I agree with a sermon I heard online awhile ago by Dr. Walter Martin on Hebrews 6--that that passage is talking about people who were never really saved to begin with. Unfortunately, some Calvinists (I'm not sure if this is what Sproul was saying) teach that works are necessary in order to be saved or stay saved. Calvinism does not necessarily prevent salvation by works from being taught. Our works cannot contribute to our salvation--even if God guarantees and makes sure that we do them and thus stay saved! That would still be salvation by works. We are saved by nothing but the blood of Jesus. This truth is nicknamed "Limited Atonement." The doctrine of Limited Atonement should prevent salvation by works teaching, but unfortunately it seems this is not always the case. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 23, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1512 Registered: 9-2006 |
I thought Sprouls statement was quite fair, look at this part "Here the author himself notes that he is speaking in an unusual manner. His conclusion differs from those who find here a text for falling away. He concludes with a confidence of better things from the beloved, things that accompany salvation. Obviously falling away does not accompany salvation. The author does not say that any believer actually does fall away. In fact he says the opposite, that he is confident they will not fall away. I thought he was pretty well saying that we have a duty to persevere in the gospel. Well, don't we? He says "But if no one falls away why even bother to warn people against it? It seems frivolous to exhort people to avoid the impossible. Here is where we must understand the relationship of perseverance to preservation. Perseverance is both a grace and a duty. I think he is arguing against the person that will read those passages and say "Bur if no-one falls away why warn? I have heard that same statement from folk who think it is very possible to "Fall away" and our salvation depends on our perseverance. Maybe I am just misunderstanding him. How can we say we Love the Lord and have no sense of duty to seek him. The Lord told Peter to feed his sheep, I think he was saying "Peter, if you love me you will feed my sheep. Basically I think that is what Sproul is saying. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6865 Registered: 12-2003 |
This is interesting. Actually, I read the quote with the understanding River explained above, but I actually wouldn't have used that "striving" language to say it. I also understand Hebrews 6 to be talking about people who aren't actually saved. I appreciate Wayne Grudem's take on Hebrews 6, that the author is actually warning people who, like the Pharisees, are in danger of committing the unpardonable sin. Such people know who Jesus is, they know His works are of the Holy Spirit, they choose not to believe him in spite of knowing, and they credit Satan with the works of God. People such as Judas are in this camp. He was with the disciples when Jesus sent them into Judea to heal the sick, preach the kingdom of heaven, cast out demons, etc. Judas participated. He knew who Jesus was; he experienced the power of the Holy Spirit—yet he refused to bow the knee to Jesus as His Lord. In any local church body, there are at least three types of people: the born again, those who are attracted to Christ and the community of the body and immerse themselves in it but are not surrendered to Jesus, and those who are just looking. That second category we cannot always identify. Those, like Judas, are the ones who are in grave danger of falling away, like the seeds that fall on the rocky ground or in the weeds. And what they need to remember and do is to submit to Jesus so that they, unlike Simon the Sorcerer, are not caught up in Christianity for the perks instead of for the Person. Good analysis from the Walter Martin sermon, Jeremy. Colleen | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 349 Registered: 11-2005 |
Actually, the quote from Sproul made sense to me, too, although I thought the wording of it was confusing and seemingly contradictory to what he was trying to get across. In reading it, you have to read it through the understanding and assumption that our salvation is totally of God, and not our will. Like Dennis said, "We cannot choose what we do not desire." God called us to Himself--it's all of Him, even our faith. If you read it with that understanding, then it makes sense. Look at the quote again, "Perseverance is both a grace and a duty. We are to strive with all our might in our spiritual walk. Humanly speaking, it is possible to fall away. Yet as we strive we are to look to God who is preserving us. It is impossible that he should fail to keep us." Yes, humanly speaking, IT IS possible to fall away, because there is no other way. As humans, we are destined to failure. I think the word "strive" is where it's easy to get hung up (as formers, I think the word "strive" has a lot of baggage associated with it). How about substituting the phrase "chug along in this journey"? So, "Yet as we chug along in this journey, we are to look to God who is preserving us." I don't see this as warning us, but rather encouragement. In other words, as we go along this journey, and it seems as if we are failing left and right, remember who is preserving us--God! He is holding us by his arms of grace, BECAUSE HE HAS ALREADY CALLED US, we need not fear. I liked Sproul's analogy of the child and father because it is one I can relate to. If I'm crossing a busy parking lot, I insist that my toddler hold my hand. He may not want to, and may resist because of the very nature of being an independent toddler, but I'm holding onto him tightly and he's not going anywhere. I won't let him fall into an unsafe situation. Does that mean his rebellious behavior frees him from consequences so that he can act however he wants because no matter what I'm looking after him? No way! You can bet that he will get the appropriate disciplining. The disciplining is for the purpose of guiding and instructing. It's not meant to be a final "punishment". The key is, as long as I'm his parent and in charge of him, there is no harm that's going to come in his way. When I look at the quote from that perspective (from the perspective of being chosen and called, because I know that's the approach Sproul is coming at it with), it makes perfect sense to me. Without that perspective though, it would be easy to read it as very "Ellenish". Grace | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 351 Registered: 11-2005 |
I love the certainty of Paul when he says, "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor prinicpalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38, 39 NASB Grace |
