| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1516 Registered: 9-2006  |
Grace, I just love the way you have of ironing things out (By the way, I have some wrinkled shirts) and like you I detected some baggage here with the word "Striving". I'll have to try and remember that and not use the word "Striving" to much around you folks unless I get in the mood to push buttons, then I can use the words “striving” and “Tithes”  That’ll be sure to push Dianna buttons. Ha! Seriously though I think in context Sproul is saying that we need to strive to bring under subjection to Christ. I strive all the time (well, most of the time) to bring my thoughts and actions under subjection to Christ, I am doing that even now as I write. I don’t feel like I do a very good job of it though. Like Colleen, there probably was a better way to put it, but if you were able to pin him down, I think he could have done it with dispatch. I think Paul put it rather nicely when he talked about running race’s. I saw nothing in his statement that was the least bit Ellen'ish and her works. No doubt Sproul would have been taken aback by that anology. River (Message edited by river on September 24, 2007) | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 352 Registered: 11-2005 |
River, you said, "...we need to strive to bring under subjection to Christ." Exactly! As an Adventist, I had absolutely no clue what living a life of submission to Christ meant. In fact, as I think about it just now, it occured to me that it is impossible to live a fully submitted life as an Adventist. The key to being a good Adventist is self-control. SELF-control. The word itself says it all. The ironic thing is, that although I was good at the self-control part, I now with the Holy Spirit in me, am capable of true self-control as described in Galatians 5:23. Since I'm born again of the Holy Spirit, and He indwells me, I continue to strive (couldn't resist using that word, because lets face it--it's striving--it doesn't come naturally!) to live a life completely submitted to His will. As a miraculous result, I am actually capable of having true self-control, because the "self" part now is Christ living in me! It's completely different from my past SELF-control, where it was all ME. Grace | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 425 Registered: 3-2005 |
Grace, actually where I'm getting hung up is when Sproul says, "humanly speaking, it is possible to fall away." I totally agree with your assessment and don't have a problem with the "striving" part of it. That is part of obedience. That is without a doubt, part of our walk as Christians. Some of my most intense a-ha moments have been after obedience even when I don't understand WHY God has asked me to do something. As for Sproul, it sounds like he's saying that we can lose our salvation if we don't strive hard enough. Like you though, knowing Sproul's teaching, I seriously doubt that's what he's saying. My best guess is that he is referring to our sanctification. It is easy to take our eyes off of Jesus and lose our focus, even our communion with God. Again, I agree that I don't think Sproul would ever say we can lose our "in Him" status. I know I forget that salvation can be misunderstood. We most often talk about salvation in terms of justification, but salvation can also mean the sanctification process. I just would have chosen different words for the sake of recovering legalists such as myself. Patria | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 353 Registered: 11-2005 |
Patria, I get what you mean. I guess the way I saw it was "humanly speaking" it is possible to fall way, but God-speaking, He's not going to let us fall away. So the net result is, we're not going to fall away, because He carries more "responsibility" on His end than we do on ours (praise God!). In fact, if I think about it being a balance scale type of analogy, He really carries ALL the responsibility. On one end it's God, and on the other end it's God indwelling in us. So either way, by default, we fall under His responsibility for us, and it's impossible for us to fall away. Which kind of re-emphasizes the point that it's all of God and not of us. Like the rest of the quote says, "It is impossible that He should fail to keep us." Does that make sense? I realize that was a pretty confusing paragraph I just wrote... Grace | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 354 Registered: 11-2005 |
By the way, being a recovering legalist gives things a whole new perspective, doesn't it? Often, I find that things that get to me, don't even phase my never-been-Adventist friends. Because of that though, we have a unique perspective that we can give people. I'm finding that fellowship like what we have on FAF is really important. It's a safe place to discuss out these types of seemingly "concerning" statements. Grace | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 426 Registered: 3-2005 |
Ok. I think I finally figured it out. (Thanks to my SDA filters, this one took me a while). "We are to strive with all our might in our spiritual walk. Humanly speaking, it is possible to fall away. Yet as we strive we are to look to God who is preserving us. R.C. Sproul, Chosen by God" He's not saying it is possible to fall away as in we might lose our salvation if we mess up. He is saying that it is possible to fall away, as in we have the capacity of falling away in our humanity (our nature that we are still chained to, but no longer counts in the judgment). Whereas in our spiritual nature, we don't even have the capacity to fall away because we are preserved by God and will naturally strive to be like Him. Is that what you all have been saying? Patria | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1519 Registered: 9-2006 |
well, look at the statement like this, humanly speaking, if it depended on us we would fall away, we would fail, but God is able to save to the uttermost those who come to him so thats where faith kicks in, we persevere, keep going, because we believe he is able to keep us, I strive to bring under subjection all because of the assurance that he will not let go. Praise his name, he hasn't let go even though, in a sense I fail many times. So I strive not to save myself, but because he has saved me even though do stumble. River | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 427 Registered: 3-2005 |
Grace. Your paragraph makes perfect sense now that I've wound my way out of the convoluted mess my SDA filters still make for me at times. You are so right. It is wonderful to be able to walk through this kind of thing with people who understand where I'm coming from...that I'm not trying to be argumentative or shirk my Christian responsibilities because I now reside under grace. So, thank you! Patria | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 355 Registered: 11-2005 |
Patria--YES!!! (Message edited by snowboardingmom on September 24, 2007) | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 428 Registered: 3-2005 |
River: I second that! Praise His Name! Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 429 Registered: 3-2005 |
Grace: Shew! I have to go take a break now.  It just doesn't seem like it should have been that complicated. hehe Patria | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 208 Registered: 5-2007  |
Your discussion on this thread has been a special blessing to me. Even after all these years out of SDAism I have a tendency to attempt to do things on my own, so it is clear that I am still a "recovering legalist". After all, the Law is a simply a list of "things I must do, works". I have several areas of weakness that I continue to struggle with and it is clear that the real problem is not letting God do what I have proven, over and over, that I can not and never will do. But, God has his own priorities in my life and is teaching me; yes, that is a problem but there is a "heart thing" that needs to change first. There is to much "Phil" in the way I think and act. I have "pulled my own weight" since I was nine years old when I got my first paying job and it has generated way to much pride in myself. I think the Lord brought me to this forum, most of all, to learn to love and care for others. In doing so, I need to share what is going on in my own life. In short, the rest of you are giving me far more than I can ever give back. I love the honest, Spirit led, way one person will bring up a topic and each of you respond with "the mind of Christ" in your choice of words in the search for truth. Phil | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2168 Registered: 10-2004  |
My only concern with the quote was that, whether or not this is what the author intended, people might come away with the impression that their good works/persevering/striving or what God is doing in their lives is part of what saves them or keeps them saved (even if God guarantees that it will happen). Those things are only the results of having already been eternally saved. What God is doing in our lives is not what keeps us saved. We are saved only by the blood of Jesus. We are not saved by what God does in us. We are saved only by what Jesus did for us on the Cross. We are not saved by something Jesus will do for us. We are saved only by what He was already done for us on the Cross. We are not saved by Jesus working in or through us. We are saved only by His finished work on the Cross for us. "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." (1 Corinthians 2:2 NASB.) That is the Gospel. Period. Anything else is not the Gospel, whether it comes from a Calvinist, an Arminian, or an angel from heaven. Jeremy P.S. Colleen, actually the last paragraph in my last post was unrelated to the Walter Martin sermon that I mentioned. (Message edited by Jeremy on September 24, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1520 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jeremy, Amen. I agree. It used to jar me very hard when someone would come off with the "striving" bit, as I'm quite sure it does other people. When I would understand someone to say it depended on my righteousness or effort to be saved it would completely unnerve me, I am so acutely aware of my own imperfections. I am sure Sproul never dreamed of where his statements would land, if he had I am quite sure his message would have been worded differently. Safe in Jesus arms. Thank God that he is able to keep me, has saved me by his own goodness and unspeakable grace. If I get off on that my office chair is liable to go into launch mode! River | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1276 Registered: 4-2000  |
We are admonished by Paul to work out our "salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12). We need to know the status of our relationship with Jesus. This is actually a commandment. Obviously, we can't work out something that hasn't been worked in. Salvation is from the Lord. Even if my fallen will is required, as many Christians seem to believe these days, then I am contributing something to my salvation. Thereby, I would be in effect saying, "God helps me to save myself." The assurance of our salvation is vital to our spiritual lives. Without it our growth is retarded and we are assailed with crippling doubts. We persevere or strive, not because of our strength but because of God's grace that preserves us. It is vitally important to be a KNOW-SO Christian instead of merely a HOPE-SO Christian. The Apostle John adds that we are to know that we have eternal life (see 1 John 5:11-13). The "working out" of our salvation is what eternal security in Christ is all about. We need to determine our status or position in Christ. Don't let another day go by without knowing it. Larry, God's Word is filled with directives for Christ-followers (i.e., the moral teachings of Jesus and His apostles, the moral teachings throughout the Bible, and the moral law specifically written upon our hearts). After all that, Christians actually know what to do and what not to do. We don't have to guess what God expects from us. We are blessed with very detailed instructions (i.e., we can't even be gluttons). As I mentioned earlier, the primary work of the Holy Spirit is to lead us into righteousness (right doing). Genuine commitment results in action. "Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being by itself" (James 2:17 NASB). Indeed, obedience is an important element of faith. Of all people, Christians are not sloppy in their conduct. Christians have an intense desire to follow the revealed will of God. For example, why would God's elect be actively engaged in continually praising God throughout eternity? Certainly not because it was a requirement for eternal bliss! The members of God's wonderful family cannot be put in a box of inactivity. Christianity is contagious! The Gospel really is good news. Man was created to be performance-oriented. Truly, our love for Jesus is revealed by our actions (i.e., self-control, gentleness, meekness, faithfulness, kindness, etc. ). The Spirit-led life is fruit-bearing (see Gal. 5:22-23). A true relationship requires action--even in an earthly sense. As Dr. R. C. Sproul often says: "We do not believe in order to be born again; we are born again in order that we may believe." Regeneration precedes faith. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 510 Registered: 8-2006 |
I took the liberty of posting a question and answer by RC Sproul I found on the internet. If I'm supposed to give the website, please let me know, Colleen. I think it sheds light on what Sproul meant in the earlier quote. Susan Can a Sinning Christian Lose His Salvation? by R.C. Sproul If someone has rejected Christianity for his entire life, but then on his deathbed decides to play it safe and profess Jesus as his Savior and Lord, will that person really be accepted into heaven? Absolutely not. That person has no hope of going to heaven on the basis of the action as you have described it. First of all, let's understand that redemption does not come through a profession of faith but through a possession of faith. Those of us who have faith are called to profess that faith; however, the mere profession of it does not guarantee that the genuine article is present. This is particularly so when somebody makes this verbal profession strictly as a means of covering his bets or to play it safe and guard against the negative consequences. From a biblical standpoint, salvation requires authentic repentance. Justifying faith is a repenting faith. If there is no repentance, then that indicates that the profession of faith is fraudulent. If we turn your question around and ask if a person could live his whole life in sin, rebellion, and disobedience and then on his deathbed truly repent and go to heaven, the answer is yes -- just as the thief on the cross met the Savior in his dying moments and was guaranteed eternity with him. The New Testament speaks of those who are saved by the skin of their teeth. It's certainly not a wise course of action to postpone your repentance until the day of your departure because we don't know when that day is on the schedule. Even though making a confession simply out of fear is not enough, that fear should give pause and cause us to think seriously about our future state. Is it possible for a Christian to lose his salvation because of sins he commits? The question of losing one's salvation is one that is a matter of great controversy within the household of Christian faith. There are many Christians who live in mortal fear every day of losing what they have found in Christ because the Bible gives serious warnings about falling away, and Paul himself says that he has to be very careful lest he himself becomes a castaway. There are biblical warnings about what would happen if after we would turn our backs on Christ we've come to a knowledge of him. On the other hand, there are also many Christians who believe that we will, in fact, never fall away, and I'm numbered among that group. I'm persuaded from a study of Scripture that we can have an assurance of our salvation not only for today but for all time. But the assurance that we have, or confidence in our future estate in salvation, must be based upon the right foundations. In other words, if my confidence that I will persevere is based on my confidence that I will not sin, it's on very shaky ground. One thing the Bible makes clear to me is that even though I am a redeemed person, I will in all likelihood, and inevitably, continue to sin to some degree. If it were up to my strength to persevere to guarantee my future salvation, then I would have very little hope of persevering. But I'm convinced that the Bible teaches that what God begins in our life, he finishes. Paul teaches, for example, in Philippians, "He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end." My confidence rests in the fact that Jesus promises to intercede for me daily as my Great High Priest. My confidence for my future salvation rests in my confidence that God will keep his promise and that Christ will intercede for me and preserve me. Again, if it were left to me, I would obviously fall away. I like to look at it this way: I'm walking the Christian life with my hand in God's hand. If my perseverance depended upon my holding tightly to God's hand, I would surely fall away because at some point I would let go. But I believe that the Scriptures teach us that God is holding my hand, and because he is holding my hand, I don't have to fear that I will fall ultimately and finally. Now that doesn't mean that Christians don't involve themselves in serious sins and what we would call in theology "serious and radical fall," but the issue we're discussing here is whether a Christian will ever fall totally and finally. In the New Testament John tells us, for example, that "those who went out from us were never really with us," and that "Christ does not lose those whom the Father has given to him." So my confidence again rests in the intercession of Christ and God's ability and promise to hold on to me. In and of myself I am capable of sinning even unto the loss of my salvation, but I'm persuaded that God in his grace will keep me from that. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1522 Registered: 9-2006 |
Thank you for posting that Susan, his take on it is just what I thought. And that is without knowing beans about Sprouls theology. I have seen a few short quotes from him but never have read his books. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4337 Registered: 3-2004  |
River, You can mention "striving and tithing" all you want because they are not my buttons any more. I gave them to God and He takes care of it for me. I am a very Happy Born Again Christian and I can see that you are too. That is because we serve an awesome God. Diana | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 430 Registered: 3-2005 |
Susan: Great information. Thank you so much for that edifying post. Wow! What a confidence we have to be able to rest in our Lord who has by His grace, through His own merit, saved us. Wow! Patria | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2170 Registered: 10-2004 |
Thanks for posting that quote, Susan. It sounds like he is saying exactly what I was afraid he might be saying in the other quote. Look at his last sentence:
How is that the Gospel?? I am not saved by my "not sinning unto the loss of my salvation"! I am not saved even by God keeping me from "sinning unto the loss of my salvation"! I am saved only because God died on the Cross for all my sin! And how does certain "sinning" cause the loss of salvation (if the loss of salvation were possible, which Sproul affirms is not) and other "sinning" does not? Isn't ONE sin bad enough to cause a person to be lost? We are saved only by the blood of Jesus. Jeremy |
