| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1060 Registered: 10-2002  |
I thought I'd share some thoughts I wrote to a friend recently about going to churches after Adventism. (Friend, if you're reading this, I hope you don't mind, I think our talk can help others!) ***** My friend had written: I don't want to belong to another religious body because they cling to too many old lies. I don't believe in using the word church for a building, I don't believe calling something worship when for nine tenths of the churches out there, there is nothing close to actually worship of God going on, and I really don't want my children exposed to those lies so they don't have the same spiritual baggage other "good churchgoers" have. I replied: Actually, be careful. There is a lot of true worship going on. True worship happens inside peoples' hearts, and we can't always judge that by externals and forms, lack of forms or abundance of forms. Additionally, I don't know how many non-Adventist churches you've visited or spent significant time at, but don't use your experience in Adventism (even liberal) as a barometer of how much "true worship" is going on out there. Also, one does not need to "belong" to another religious body as in being a "member". The fact is that we are all already members of one another. Though we all don't know each other, we are already part of each other. The wonderful truth is that we will get to spend the rest of our lives finding out how we are all already connected because we know the same Guy, and we are attached to the same Vine. There are indeed lies, but brother, the amount of lies in evangelical Christianity is peanuts compared to what we grew up with in Adventism. And the most significant fact about this is that these "lies" in Christianity are not in the foundation, wherease in Adventism they were in Adventism's foundation. Protestant Christianity founded itself on justification by faith and sola scriptura, and despite whatever variations are in the Body, these two things are fixed as the common foundation. In other words, they've got the Gospel correct. And that is a solid enough foundation not only for fellowship with one another, but it also is solid enough for God to unite us together as one by His Spirit -- (see Ephesians 1:13-14). Part of the experience of maturing in Christ is learning to fellowship with one another when we disagree on things. Through this we learn what is paramount and what is open to question. We learn what is foundational, and we learn that in other things there is room for flexibility -- and even if we know the certain answer, we are to be patient and loving and not break the unity of the Spirit. (I read once that Paul interestingly said to "keep" the unity of the Spirit... it is important to preserve the unity that He has made by His Spirit through His word, the Gospel of His grace). I know you don't want your kids to pick up others' baggage, but trust me, they're going to get your baggage anyway. I can't describe the strange peace and joy that I had when my son was lifted out of my arms and passed around the room at Jesus Family Center a month ago, and how small kids (older than he, of course) wanted to come and smile at him and play with him, give him some love and include him in their fun (even though he's far too young to understand). There is doctrinal error and baggage in every church (and in every Christian), but the love of God is there among His people, and it is for that love that we all need to spend time together. Our fellowship is around His love, not the other errors or truths. We come together and receive His body and blood together as grace -- undeserved by all of us. A word of caution from history. Do you know about the mukyokai? It is the "non-church church" -- a term coined by Kanzo Uchimura in the late 1800s. He saw many problems with Western Christianity, and he geniunely wanted to see a Japanese Christian church. Shedding the "building", he and his followers met together as the "non-church church". Many things he said and many of his ideas are good and true. And the mukyokai still exist today. Sadly, however, you don't hear much from them. They're a little hard to find, and they're also stuck on what Uchimura & his followers taught. While it is good to not need to be noticed, this goes a little further, because the nation is in desperate need of knowing God's grace, and somehow the mukyokai lost a bit of the passion of the great commission in its doctrinal correctness about the "building". Yes, a "building" is not "church". At the same time, the Church does exist in churches. The Church exists outside of churches as well. The New Testament does tell Christians to meet together. It doesn't give rules about how & when & where, but it does say to meet. What has evolved into regular times & places is indeed tradition, but tradition is not always negative. Dependence on tradition or constrictive traditions can be negative, but simply because somethign is "tradition" does not automatically make it negative. For example, one Christian might have a personal devotion every morning. Another Christian might have one every night. Another Christian might have a personal devotion time irregularly. In the same way, Christians have the God-given Biblical right to choose to meet together in a regular place at a regular time. It's not anti-biblical. If they force others to do the same, however, that can become a big problem. However, there are a great lot of churches out there that do not use force in this way. And there are even more that mistakenly believe it is necessary, yet they do not use force on their members. Listen, I'm going to run ahead here to the next thing, but I'll say again that it is especially important for people who were raised Adventist to get out and spend time among Christians. Being raised Adventist, we gave microscopic attention to "doctrines" and separated ourselves on every little minor point. Our very fellowship together at "Adventist churches" was based on our separation from Christians because of our doctrines. Our doctrines were the very basis of our separation and the basis of our ability to fellowship together. You remember "Studying Together" by Mark Finley. We were simply raised to be nitpicky about doctrines, and we did not have the fundamental foundation (the Gospel) as our basis for fellowship together. Our basis for fellowship was on lesser doctrines. We didn't know how to fellowship with one another simply because of the Gospel. Our fellowship wasn't based on the Gospel, but was based on small nitpicky doctrines. What I'm saying is that our whole idea of "fellowship" was off base. We need to spend time among other Christians in order to see how the Body can exist with one another despite disagreeing over minor things. We need to discover what it's like to fellowship together simply because of the Gospel and not because of some elite set of "truths" that everyone else is missing. Finally (for this section), I want to say again that I'm not saying "membership" anywhere. We are members of Christ and in His Spirit are already members of one another. Yet when we look out the window of the train and see a church building, or when we pass one along the street, we need to recognize that inside is part of the Body of Christ and part of me. And God is able to send His servants to different churches -- in fact, He often sends them to places that are indeed constrained and that have significant problems. Not to "be fed", no, but rather to intercede. And other times He sends them to other churches merely for fellowship. Other times He sends them simply because this is My Body in your neighborhood and you are one already in Me, so you need to get to know one another. ***** I don't think I need to worry about having the veil of adventism removed too much. I've always been far to cynical about what has been said in my religion classes. All the preaching about how other denominations have let tradition dominate Scripture, how other writers have overshadowed the Bible, how they read too much into some texts while ignoring others. All these comments have always been accompanied by loud, silent "And we don't?" in my head. I've reverted to a simple what the Bible says mentality and more importantly knowing what the Bible DOESN'T say. It's hard to describe this, bro, but spending time outside and among other Chrisitans really opens your eyes to things in Scripture that you couldn't see before. Through fellowshiping with other Christians, God often reveals blind spots that you didn't know you had. Even in the most liberal and cynical corners of Adventism, we were raised under the teaching of Ellen White. Time and time again I & other former Adventists have discovered how pervading her influence was when someone mentions a text and suddenly we realize that we somehow always read it through Ellen's glasses -- even though we never personally read her comments on that verse. There is an Adventist way of reading the Scriptures, a way which puts emphases in certain places and is established on cognitive dissonance. I'm having trouble thinking of a specific example to illustrate this for now. But on the forum I can't count the number of times we all have these "aha!" moments when another little piece of the Adventist veil is revealed (which we didn't know we had). What I said earlier about the Christian basis for fellowship (the Gospel) also applies here. Having the foundation in place makes a big difference in our ability to fellowship with one another, and it also makes a big difference in the way that we read the Scriptures. Coming out of Adventism I've had to learn a lot of things over again that I thought I knew. The proper foundation makes all the difference. That said, the experience that Formers have with legalism & error in Adventism is very, very valuable to the rest of the Body that did not grow up with such extremes. Formers have a lot to share, but they also have a lot to learn. That is part of "fellowship" -- exchanging with one another and hearing God speak through one another. God gives a portion of Himself in each member of His body, and He gives this marvelous ability to others to see certain things that we ourselves cannot see. We need the perspective of that one person in the room who remains quiet all the time. That person is an invaluable part of His body, too, and God speaks to that person. Paul wrote that when we come together, one person receives a revelation, another a tongue, another an interpretation, etc. And all of these things must be done for the strengthening of the church. In other words, the body is weak if its members are not fellowshiping together, if His voice is not resounding out of every member in the unique way He has designed. | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 80 Registered: 4-2004 |
Thank you Ramone for sharing your thoughts on church. After Adventism it has been a major struggle for me to become involved in a church again. My pastor was discussing John 17:20-26 on Sunday. He said worshipping together reflects the glory of the trinity. Because of this we are better able to see Christ. And last doing things together greatly increases our capacity for faith and love. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1062 Registered: 10-2002 |
Your welcome!  The part that I really felt I wanted to share here was how being Adventist affects our ability to fellowship -- being Adventist taught us to fellowship only because we agree. Our mere gathering together was at the exclusion of the rest of Christianity, and we didn't know how to bridge over differences; we didn't know how to meet simply because of His grace. We also didn't know how to discern what was fundamental/foundational and what was not, because our "foundation" was built on things that were not foundational. I think, it is also possible for us even having exited Adventism to still "sift" our choice of fellowshiping based on minor doctrines. But the Gospel is to be the basis for fellowship. About "church", I have to confess we are having difficulty "going to church." My friend was right that "church" is not a building. The larger thing, however, is that in the New Covenant things are non-compulsive. We aren't ordered to meet in a certain place or a certain way. However, no matter what Christian traditions any of us holds onto, we are still part of His Body. So "tradition" should not be a barrier to fellowship. The word "fellowship" is the tricky part, because "church" usually doesn't involve very much interaction and interpersonal communication. It's similar to attending a movie together (albeit a very spiritual movie!). At a movie you don't speak to the people next to you. In spiritual terms, it's kind of a one-way date at church usually. A date with the pastor, and with God (depending on if God uses the pastor to speak to you or not). The real fellowship with the Body comes after church during potluck or when you hang out with church members together, or when you go to prayer meetings during the week or daycare or whatever. One of the reasons I have difficulty is simply because I'm used to a deeper kind of "Body gathering", so to speak. At my old prayer group in California we gathered at a home, sang to Jesus, waited on His Spirit, shared with one another, read Scripture, prayed and read more, prayed for one another, unloaded our burdens, laid hands on one another, waited on Him some more, etc. And we had a difficult time stopping the meeting! Sometimes we got out at 3am. Once you open up to others and they open up to you and this all in God's presence and He opens up in the middle of you, you don't want to leave! His love truly is better than wine! (And I like Merlot, ha!) That said, that was seven years ago for me, and He brought me here to Japan. I realize He has connections and fellowship for us, but we're having to go out and find it. He is teaching us that now we have to take the first step. He's got people there and we will have that kind of close fellowship again (even closer, and yet also different somehow, but totally what the Doctor ordered!). So I'm trying to have us go to a local church as often as we can, but right now with baby Timothy's schedule (he's 6 months old now! ) it's a bit difficult, and for the last two weeks we've arrived after the "service" was finished. But it's been okay. Also, like I mentioned to my friend, I want Timothy to grow up with the children there -- the love I saw in them touched me. The New Covenant calls for giving from the heart, not from under compulsion, and that also goes for fellowship, I believe. He wants us to desire fellowship, not be coaxed into it or go because we fear being incomplete. It's only after we see that each one of us is part of His Body that we can long and desire for that exchange of intimacy with other parts of the Body. Speaking of Timothy, it's bathtime. Blessings in Jesus and goodnight! Ramone (one living stone speaking to another...) | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 81 Registered: 4-2004 |
This is a link to an article that my pastor recommended I read. http://www.biblicalspirituality.org/whyjoin.html To be honest, after my last church experience with the SDA, it is scary as anything to be worshipping again with a group of people. I am not sure I would do it, if I didn't have two children. The article talks about biblical reasons to belong to a church. So, if I am going to follow what the Bible teaches, fellowshipping with other Christians in a church seems to be part of it. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6873 Registered: 12-2003  |
Ramone, thank you for sharing your insights. You are absolutely right. I think most of us have trouble involving ourselves in a church at first after leaving Adventism. We were too burned by being owned by a church, and we weren't going to let that happen again! What we didn't understand, though, was that in real Christianity, fellowship and belonging are not doctrine-driven. They are Holy Spirit driven. He was missing from our Adventist congregations, and all we had to unite us were cultural and theological similarities. Beginning to worship with others who love Jesus is so surprising. It is this that Jesus and Paul speak of when they talk about unity and being one as Jesus and the Father are one. As you said, Ramone, we have a lot to share, and we have a lot to learn. Colleen | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 249 Registered: 1-2006  |
Ramone, Being willing to cast off spiritual pride and admit our error was not easy for any of us formers—we all paid a price to some extent when we left Adventism. I guess it’s why so many of us appreciate the fellowship on this forum. Integrity matters. Maybe you’ve see the book “The Measure of All Things” by Ken Alder. It’s the true story of a brilliant scientist who made a mistake and decided to cover it up. Think about the 1919 Bible Conference, for example, and you’ll understand where I’m going with this . . . The story is about how the length of a meter was determined, and why the meter we have used for generations is actually in error according to definition. Before anyone knew how long a meter would be, it was formally defined as 1/10,000,000th of the distance between the pole and the equator. To get the needed measurements, two astronomers set out from Paris to measure the earth—one heading north and the other south. By triangulation and painstaking measurements, they were to keep accurate records of their work, with the goal of defining once and for all time the length of the meter. The task took years, and sure enough, the astronomer heading south made an error in his measurements in Spain. In panic, he covered up the discrepancy. Ken Alder writes “The guilty knowledge of his misdeed drove him to the brink of madness, and ultimately to his death. Only then—after the meter had already been publicly announced—did his partner . . . discover the truth and face a fateful choice: what matters more, the truth or the appearance of truth?” Alder asks, “Is it permissible to perpetuate a small lie in the service of a larger truth?” I haven’t read the entire book, and don’t intend to, but whenever I think of how so many of on this forum grew up in homes where we trusted our parents and teachers and pastors, I’m reminded of how devastating it is when people you trusted turn out not to be worthy of your trust. We each had to decide if we would be willing to perpetuate an error—knowingly passing it on to our children and grandchildren? In today’s news, Warren Jeffs, of polygamy infamy, was found guilty. He mislead children, to put it mildly. "When I was young my mother taught me that evil flourishes when good men do nothing," said Elissa Wall, the prosecution's star witness, who was "placed" by Jeffs in an arranged marriage at 14.” —from a CNN interview AOL recently carried the story of a girl who ran away from a polygamous home. She mentioned in her interview that she rarely dates, yet she’s a beautiful young woman in her 30s. It reminded me that those of us formers may not be in any hurry to rejoin another church, just as she isn’t too anxious for a repeat experience. I don’t wish to be critical of the church or the members here, but just to say that a lot of damage is done when knowing adults lack the integrity to be honest with their own kids. May God lead us into safe pastures. Bob | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6877 Registered: 12-2003 |
Bob, what an amazing and honest post. I totally agree with you. Integrity and truth are what matter. When we compromise, we leave a legacy of destruction to some degree or another. I loved the sentence, “Is it permissible to perpetuate a small lie in the service of a larger truth?” I realize how often we believed that God permitted "falsehood" as the means of promoting "truth". Remember the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? I believe we all understood that the story wasn't real; it was simply a metaphor about riches being an obstacle to eternity. I'll never forget Gary Inrig saying re: that parable, "God would never tell an untruth to illustrate a truth." I had never thought of that concept. I had always believed that God would use whatever means most convenient to get His point across. I realized with a shock that I had believed God would "lie" because Ellen had said He did!! She attributed her own moral failure to God. It's no wonder we couldn't think of God as truly sovereign when we believed He was capable of deception for the sake of "ultimate truth". Praise God for choosing us and knowing us and forgiving us of our insufferable arrogance! Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 440 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi all: This is an interesting discussion. It is so true that we all have been hurt and organized Christianity is full of people. There are tares among the wheat. There are wheat that are just plain mean. There are tares that are brilliant and kind. No matter how holy and moral a person is, people are still people and will always hurt each other. A church body is family and family can hurt each other the worst. My husband and I decided to just go for it. While we are not officially members of our local church, we are very active. But our decision to be in a church hasn't made us sit back and say "shew" now we've arrived. To the contrary, we are always on the alert to what is being taught (gently and respectfully). Does it align with Scripture? What are the children learning? What programs are they using? We talk to our children A LOT...to the point of some major eye-rolling going on! The reality is that the fellowship, as is everything about our Christian walk, is for the glory of God. Hebrews 10 says to not forsake assembling together, encouraging one another. Guys: this REALLY happens in a Bible-believing church. The impact that the church as a body can have on a community is awe-inspiring. When, in spite of our frailites, we can focus on humanity around us...on their pain and suffering; when we can model Christ to them, we will be sharing the Gospel occasionally even without words. I guess my point is that the Church will always let us down. But the Head never will. Adventism is founded on heresy, perpetuated by both people who know this and also by people who don't. Christianity is founded on Truth and even though there is MUCH Christian liberty on non-essentials of the Word that can lead to MUCH vigourous debate, we have a common foundation on Jesus Christ alone. In fact, when we surround ourselves only with people who think just like we do and agree with exactly how we see life, we're never held accountable. FAF is a great example of a place where we are challenged sometimes to the nth degree about WHY we hold to some belief. I know I've had a few changes of heart because what I was thinking didn't align with Scripture. I WANT to know that and unless I purposely and intentionally put myself into a position of vulnerability, it won't happen. I'll be left with only my thoughts. True, the Holy Spirit is a perfect guide, but He has called us to fellowship for a reason. He wants us to use each other as iron sharpens iron. Purposely situating ourselves in a body of people who are Christians, EVEN when we don't agree with sometimes MUCH of what they say, can be a statement of faith. We trust that God is now dwelling in us and will lead us into Truth. And honestly, we have a perspective on deception that few have. WE have much to offer the Body. Well, those are my thoughts and believe me, they aren't easy for me to say. Even as I write, I'm about to go get my wrist slapped for asking what I thought was a simple question of my head pastor. And BTW: I'll go and I'll listen and I'll learn. I have learned that he (the pastor) isn't superhuman and makes mistakes. And I have learned that he has a God-given position of authority over me. I trust the Holy Spirit to work His miracle in both of us and to lead us into His righteousness. So I'm not saying all this from a position of luxury. Indeed, I have had some moments in the last few weeks where I have been prostrate before God, sobbing my heart out. But I had a decision to make. Do I trust Him or not? I choose to... Patria | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 441 Registered: 3-2005 |
"Praise God for choosing us and knowing us and forgiving us of our insufferable arrogance! " Amen! And BTW: I pray that my post doesn't sound holier-than-thou. I most certainly do not mean it that way. I am just sharing my heart and am open to any and all of your thoughts on the matter... And another BTW: I agree that fellowshipping doesn't necessarily mean gathering in a brick and mortar building or even a grass hut. FAF may be enough for some. But I DO wonder if physically sitting in a room with another believer, across the table, whatever, is important for accountability, too. Patria (Message edited by patriar on September 25, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6880 Registered: 12-2003 |
Patria, what an awesome post. You have clearly stated the truth. We are called to literal fellowship with the Body, and we are to exercise humility and support for the authority of the pastors over us. One of the most profound things I'm learning as a result of being n a Biblical church is the reality of submission to authority because authority is appointed by the Lord Jesus. Always, however, our submission is ultimately to Jesus our Head. (In other words, He doesn't ask us to disgrace His name for the sake of honoring a false teacher, etc.) But we are to be respectful to and to pray for our pastors. Ultimately, however, the unity and support of fellowship with others who live to honor the Lord Jesus is not possible to describe. The reality of the Holy Spirit uniting believers is amazing. Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 442 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen: I can't tell you how many times your precious voice has come to my mind in the last couple of weeks. I remember distinctly that you have spoken about the difficulty of learning the meaning of authority in the church after leaving Adventism. God has spoken through you...again. And I just adore you for that! And yes, you're right. Christ is the ultimate authority. I've had to weigh some things that I see as very real "issues" with the actuality that from the pulpit, Truth is being taught. We will continue to be vigilant and trust in Him alone! Patria | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1064 Registered: 10-2002 |
I love this "statement of faith", Patria --
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| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1535 Registered: 9-2006  |
Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Assembling of ourselves together and not only that but exhorting one another for Jesus will not again go to the cross “It is finished” so, let us hold fast the profession of faith without wavering by assembling ourselves together and exhorting one another to good works in the Spirit of grace and so much the more as the spirit of darkness attempts to overtake the earth. That about right? River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1065 Registered: 10-2002 |
I think that's the longest single sentence I've seen in a long time, River! You know, the way most people use Hebrews 10:25 is actually kind of a form of "control"... so that you fear not assembling. It's used to make people attend rather than show them God's heart. The purpose of 10:25 is said to be "encouraging" one another. Summing up "the reason to meet", the author says the reason to meet is to encourage one another. Today, however, most people use the verse as a kind of law. They use it as a prooftext for showing that you have to "go to church" (which involves many traditions of men that are built on top of the Foundation, yet nevertheless the traditions are not the Foundation, and God does not bind us by the traditions of men). The common usage of 10:25 is not to encourage people, but it is used to compell them to meet together for fear of 1) disobeying God or 2) fear of falling away. How different would it be if we all met together because we wanted to? How different would it be if we met because we wanted to encourage one another? Wouldn't people simply become blissfully addicted to meeting together then? Would they run to their meeting? What if the encouragement they found there was so good that they couldn't think of living without it? I think that's the proper way to use Hebrews 10:25. It shouldn't be used as a kind of external compulsion to produce an external behavior (a law that is interested in peoples' attendance), but rather our compulsion should come from the inside, from our hearts. Our desire to meet should not be based on fear, but based on the overflow of our hearts to share in God's love for one another and be in His presence together. (Message edited by agapetos on September 27, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1549 Registered: 9-2006 |
And so how did you see my long running sentence, did you see it as a form of control? There is both warning and blessing involved in this set of scripture. There is warning that we do not live unto ourselves, but are part of the body particular, there is blessing in encouraging one another and blessing in unity of the Spirit. People who go to church or whatever meeting place out of fear will not be much encouragement to anybody. If we go out of love, then love will be there when we get there. Like you said "How different would it be if we all met together because we wanted to?" Well it is "how different" for me because I go to encourage others, when I'm tired (us older folks get that way) I go anyhow. I don't go to get, I go to give. Simple as that. Try it folks, you'll like it. Look at Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Let us consider one another (or) let us go considering one another so provoking one another one another to good works by the consideration we show, consideration is alway outward expanding. The writers statement is outward ministry, he doesn't say to consider ourselves ,but to have consideration "too" one another, It's a love feast folks. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4344 Registered: 3-2004  |
Church after adventism!! Oh, I am so glad God told me to go to my church. He knew what I needed, in spite of the senior pastor and his belief in tithing, for himself. He does not make a "you have to do this or you will go to hell" thing. I have shared with you the various experiences I have had there about meeting the former Muslin who found Christ in a dream, the young man who was eventually baptized with his girl friend and her son, the former SDA I met a couple weeks ago and just all the love and care the Christians I have met there exude. For me, I needed to connect with a group of Christians. Thanks for this. There is definitely life abundant after adventism. Diana | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 452 Registered: 3-2005 |
Diana: I agree! It really is such a joy to be in a church of believers who long to know Christ....I have found the experience to be "abundant" as well! God is good! Patria | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6893 Registered: 12-2003 |
Amen! Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1066 Registered: 10-2002 |
River, ha, sorry, I wasn't commenting on what you'd written -- truthfully, my mind couldn't quite sort out the long sentence you'd written! I must be getting old. Just the mere usage of the verse triggers a kind of memory of the many, many times I've heard it used the way I'd mentioned most people use it. Sadly, I've heard it used that way outside of Adventism. A few times when I've met Christians around the city and talked to them, the conversation always took a difficult, sour turn whenever they asked where we "went to church". That we lived without being "members" somewhere seemed to make them nervous, and it was as if a "wall" went up in our conversation and they became very guarded with us. It hurt a lot, actually, and made me sad. I could and did explain how we would meet with friends and others at home or at coffee shops, and how we'd pray or wait on the Lord together (and hear from Him!), etc. But those explanations couldn't break the "wall" that went up between us, and they still seemed to feel like we were sinning or something. Once when at a multi-church prayer meeting, I remember a Baptist man asking the "church" question to me, and I began to go into my usual explanation, and another man next to him laid his hand on my shoulder and said, "It's all right, we understand." It was shockingly relieving! He too was a missionary here and worshiped in homes and started a church worshiping in a home up north. And the Baptist man also understood because he was a missionary and was involved in the same kinds of things. I realized how much I personally feared telling people what I knew about what "church" really means, because I feared the pain of rejection yet again (which I've experienced often in this area in the Body after leaving Adventism). Offering "explanation" would never take the 'wall' down, and I realized that I offered it mainly to kind of defend or justify what we were doing -- but I didn't need to do that because I knew God and I knew where He was putting us and how He was leading us. Recently I've been talking with a friend (Calvary Chapel) whom I work with, and he's also been not very settled down at any "church" in Osaka, but going here and there irregularly (since he also has a baby son, well, 'nuff said!). He misses good teaching. For me, however, I miss fellowship, just knowing people. Recently I've tried to get us out to Jesus Family Center (a church two subway stations from our home) once a weekend just to get to know people better. My goal is fellowship and then hopefully prayer together. The sermon... well, I'm not going there for that reason. The worship in song is wonderful, though. But most things depend on baby's schedule, ha! I just want to get to know the Body which meets two stations next door to us. I want to pray with them, open up, share, hear the Lord through them, and share what the Lord puts in us, etc. Unfortunately, "church services" don't really offer a forum for this (for "fellowship" basically). However, I'm trusting that over time relationships will develop and we'll find outlets (or inlets!) for these things. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1559 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well, Like I said Ramone, if you go out of love then love will be there when you get there. Sometimes persons who have a desire for the ministry feel the way you do. It is not difficult on me because I have always been a loner and I really have to work at fellowship, plus I have always been painfully shy around people. but you wouldn't believe the strides that God has taken me through in the past six or eight months. Maybe Ramone the people you go out too for fellowship may just need the love you have more than your need to find fellowship. I have spent a life time feeling on the outside of everything and I would have appreciated you wanting to fellowship with me, but I would have rejected and advances for friendship, so I would have been so grateful for it and yet miserable at the same time. Its almost physical pain for me to associate with people, those are the kinds of people that make up a group, thank God not too many, But there are people out there that need the love you have for them, just letting them know that you are their special friend. It may not be a whole group, it may be the one that seems to reject you, it may be the one that slips in and hangs around the edges. So Ramone, I want to encourage you today to go out there and “give” fellowship, it is harder to give and keep on giving than it is to receive, but the dividends are huge. You show a great deal of the symptoms of someone to has a soft and pliable heart and this can be a great blessing to the body. 1 cor. 12:26 If one member, all of the members suffer with it; The is thing that suffering takes many forms. I am not trying to tell you how to do it, just trying to jiggle your mind a little, if you have love to give, if you have mercy to give, there is a world full of people waiting to receive it, they may not show it right off but just keep whacking at it, they will come around. I wish our time differences weren’t so far apart, sometimes I want to answer your post and just talk with you, but by the time I get an answer I done forgot what I wanted to talk about. But I still look for your post and when you pop up, I check it out. Hang in there brother, as we used to say in the Army, the worm will turn. Now I pray for God’s blessing on you today (tomorrow?) timelines!! Father, I wish a special blessing on my friend and brother Ramone, I ask you that when he reads this he will feel what I am feeling now, time is nothing to you Father, I ask you for the fellowship his heart craves. I ask you to bless his wife and baby. I intercede on their behalf for your blessing and mercy’s. In Jesus name. River P. S. Could you give me a link to your website again? | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1068 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi River, Thanks for your love & prayers! The biggest thing I've learned in the time "in the wilderness" has been that I've needed to find my wholeness & completeness in Jesus Christ instead of in the affirmation & acceptance of people. Growing up I experienced rejection, and because of that I cowered before the man-pleasing spirit, so to speak. More than fellowship with man (even the Body), He's shown me that I need to depend on fellowship with Him. Secure in that, He sends us to fellowship with His Body and then to bring others into the fellowship with Him and with His Body. It's a little sad and should be illogical that fellowship with "Him" and "His Body" should be seperate issues, but His Body (that's us) is assembled and membered by His grace -- meaning that we are not perfect, and that we often reject and hurt one another. So the Body gets second place to Him. On that same note, as you've mentioned, He's called us to love the Body -- "love one another" does not depend on them loving you first or even loving you back in return. This is God's agape love, the love with which He loved us while we were His enemies. Thanks again, River. Blessings & love in Him, Ramone P.S. Websites... I have too many, haha! Homepage blog, Art blog, Sabbath-rest blog, and Former-Adventist blog. Most haven't been updated in awhile, except for the art blog. P.P.S. Um, I hope this massive personal-bloggin' linkage is okay here...! If not, delete away in love! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1563 Registered: 9-2006 |
Quote: “Growing up I experienced rejection, and because of that I cowered before the man-pleasing spirit, so to speak.” Ramone, I certainly Resonate with that, do I ever resonate with that, I really can’t put my finger on exactly what happened back there to cause me to “cower before the man pleasing spirit” as you put it, I have never had it put that way, but that is just the exact truth of the matter I believe. I suppose what led up to my facing this thing was when the Lord began to lead me to write, the Holy Spirit would lead me to write then I would sit and stew about and anguish about it, so I would write to please God and then worry so much that I was pleasing man, I would write and be miserable, write and be miserable again. What a miserable existence! Finally one morning I was sitting at my desk so worried and miserable and the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart and said “you are trying to please man rather than God” so right away I settled it in my heart to get rid of this, I remembered a book published by a person that had went through this, so I got the book and read it. It helped a little and I have made some headway, but I am still not over it, but I am trying to make headway. Looking back on my life, I would just agree with everybody, shake my head in affirmative no matter what they said, even if they were assenting to sin I would have agreed with it even though Gods prompting said no. All of a sudden though I knew I was saying things that folk might not necessarily want to hear because it had the propensity to bring truth and conviction into their lives, I may be a coward but I ain’t completely stupid. One time we had a young person in our church whom God had led to preach and all through out this persons sermons, would apologize, finally one day I said “quit apologizing for the word of God, you are driving me crazy” but Ramone I ended up doing the same thing. Now I look at it I suspect people like me and the person I spoke about are in reality apologizing for having been borne on this earth and for having to take part in it, feeling really that they have no value to God or anybody else. I suspect it is caused by abuse and deadly fear of more abuse. God would say to us “you are of much value”, he considered us enough value that he suffered and died for us Matthew 10:31 "Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. Some of us just have trouble believing that, we are afraid to believe it and I think simply that we are afraid to open ourselves up to the chance of abuse maybe, so we try, but before we know it sink right back down into the scum of unbelief and worthlessness. I know it sounds nuts, but lying about it and trying to put a good face on it isn’t going to help either. Some of us are in effect telling God he lies. Sad but I think I am telling the truth and we need to quit that, I need to quit it! I am not saying you are this way Ramone, I am just saying some of us are, we come out of life twisted and injured and in need of inner healing. I remember being batted around physically as a kid, my Dad was pretty rough, but I am not at all sure this stems from that, it may stem from a combination of things. Basically I am not as much interested in how it came to be, but more interested in how to overcome the de-habilitating and crippling cycle’s it brings about. Now that God has put me back out in the world to minister by his Spirit and I do believe he wants me to minister by his Spirit, not to give out my words but his words and I really don’t care a hoot about my own take anyhow, its what he thinks that matters. I have enough sense to know that if I go under my own steam I will flop anyhow. I am an expert at flopping. But sometimes when you go under the power of the Holy Spirit you may have to tell people things that they don’t want to hear. Working within the body does not always bring peace and lovey dovey unity Ramone, I know you have a special gift for and a great desire for bringing unity to the body, but there is others whom God uses to operate on the body because there are sores on it, he will use them to yank the scab off and then use you to pour on the healing ointment of love (so to speak in medical terms although I am speaking of spiritual things you understand). How can the body act in unison with a broken toe or a fractured foot? Sometimes it is painful to treat wounds that if left to themselves will only fester and grow worse and when the Lord puts you under the knife, it ain’t funny and it don’t feel good, but if we submit to his ministrations we will grow. It is my desire to be healed even if the healing brings temporary pain. Joy does come in the morning and the darkest before the dawn testifies of the coming day. Me, I have to keep reminding myself that God will bring me out. Thanks for the links Ramone, I enjoyed digging through them, I wanted to try to get to know you better. Enjoyed the pics of the baby. Best to the wife and baby. Now I can hit the send button and go worry about what I just wrote!! It,s not that everything I do or write pleases God, it’s just that I think he wants my effort’s and my worship, he will take my weakness to bring glory to himself and help to the body. River P.S. I know this is a public forum, but if anybody can use my junk and it brings help, understanding of themselves or whatever, if it brings glory to God, welcome to it, or to add something feel free. | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 725 Registered: 4-2006  |
"How different would it be if we all met together because we wanted to?" Ramone Amen brother Ramone :-) I must say I long to be with my brothers and sisters, reading the Word, singing, praying, talking, sharing, helping etc. IE ministering to each other in the body. And that Monday, Tuesday etc. Much more than going to a stiff "service" in a "church" building a particular day each week. Your right about the prooftexting of Hebrews 10:25 to mean you have to be a member of a particular congregation. Rather than to just meet with your brothers in Christ and ministering to them and be ministered. May His love abound in you all, your brother in Christ, Martin | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1072 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi River, Thanks again for opening up your heart and sharing! The expression "man-pleasing spirit" I learned from a friend in California, and though I'm not liable to call every fault a separate "spirit" as some are prone to do, I've seen this one in action enough to know that it is a real spiritual stronghold, and also that there is healing in Jesus Christ! Hallelu Yah! The "cowering" part came from a dream I had when we were leaving the last church we'd been members at up in north Osaka. We were excited to be connected and accepted, and in my excitement I tried not to look at things like their "tithing" teaching and a couple other problems. But not half a year later the tithing thing blossomed into full-blown "prosperity" stuff and it was getting ugly. Still, it was difficult to face the pastor and talk about this stuff. At times he was such a nice and encouraging man, but his lack of timidity would also be intimidating if you felt the least bit unsure of yourself. In merely being "open", you felt vulnerable. By the way, this is something I've noticed from that experience but which translates across borders to almost every experience, especially in Adventism. When someone is super-sure of themselves and what they think, they are liable to seem more "correct" merely because of their boldness, merely because of how sure they sound. They may be in complete error, but to you and to others they will sound "right" because they are so closed to any other possibility. Whereas you, on the other hand, if you are open to the possibility that you don't know everything and that you may be wrong, they will take advantage of that and make it look like you are weak or unsteady. Now, at times God does bomb us with a certain sureness & boldness, but He never wants us to be crass, uncaring, or unsympathetic, and He surely doesn't want us brainwashing or bending peoples' consciences! I love how Dale Ratzlaff constantly writes about respecting peoples' consciences and not urging them to sin against their consciences (or us against our own). The kind of "sure" person I spoke about, however, will speak with such a boldness and will batter the opposition so much that it will become apparent he/she does not respect one's conscience. Accepting the truth of what he/she says will become more important than you truly understanding it and discovering it for yourself. Accepting it from this person's mouth will become more important than (or equivalent to) hearing it from God to your own heart. Anyway, yeah, so I had this dream that I was with a dog on a leash and we were kind of sneaking army-style up to a place. But soon we began to hear other dogs barking, coming towards us. The pastor had the other dogs, and he found us. My dog was cowering, and so was I. I remember offering the pastor some fresh sushi from a styrofoam container. I don't know what the sushi bit was about (perhaps a Japanese version of buttering his toast!), but the "dogs" were demons. His dogs were dogs of control, and they found me & my dog because my dog was a demon of fear-of-man. It was a cowering spirit which I had "on a leash", so I thought. I thought I had it under control, but I didn't. In fact, the very reason his dogs found us and went at us was because of the spirit I had. Have you ever noticed that when you have this kind of fear, it is like a magnet for people who have a propensity to be controlling? Anyway, God's brought me through a lot of healing. I'm not exactly sure how & when, but it's been a long process. Actually, it's probably from being burnt in these situations a lot. And ignoring the prodding of His Spirit right at the get-go. For awhile I couldn't hear from Him, and when I realized what was wrong, He showed me it was because I hadn't listened to Him at the beginning of joining that church. So I repented of that and set out on the path He had for me. The fear of God is the cure for the fear of man, jah? Lunchtime! Thanks again & blessings in Jesus! Ramone | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6909 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I always gain insight from your ponderings, and I am grateful that you share them. Ramone, thank you for your sensitivity to people's vulnerabilites. Colleen |
