| Author |
Message |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1551
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 7:27 pm: |     |
Isn't it funny how churches have a way of coming up with list and sure to make it longer?
Why, my requirements are growing by the second jest from these here post and I ain't even went anywhere.
River  |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1288
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 7:37 pm: | |
River,
I really don't have any lists of "Do's" and "Don'ts" for you, but the Holy Spirit moved upon the penmen of Scripture who did provide us with ethical and moral lists. Let us honor and obey God's revealed will for our lives.
Dennis Fischer |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 453
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 7:47 pm: | |
Jeremy, Loneviking:
Wow! Very interesting! Would you mind clarifying about the Law and it's role as a tutor. This whole idea requires a 180 degree turn in my mind but you're making a whole lot of sense. I'm curious to hear a little more about it if you have time...
Patria |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1552
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 7:52 pm: | |
Just giving you a hard time Dennis.
I don't agree with much you say, but there are things you say that I do agree with.
River |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1553
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 8:14 pm: | |
You know, I think the answer to where people get messed up concerning the Ten Commandments still standing to convict of sin lays in the key of what the Bible says of itself, Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
When we read or hear the Word of God preached, it cuts and pierces, but it is the Holy Spirit that convicts so folk think it is the commandments themselves alone that is doing it.
They see or hear the Word spoken, but they don’t see the invisible so you have a hard time convincing them that it is the Holy Spirit who is doing the convicting.
Just my own opinion which probably doesn’t count for a whole lot.
River |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 605
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 10:01 pm: | |
Patriar, the law kept alive the belief in one God. The law was what made the Jews a nation and a people with a religion unique to them. I'd strongly urge you to go here:
www.ccel.org
Click on 'browse', go to 'E' for Edersheim, Alfred; then read the 1st chapters in 'The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah' and 'The Temple and its' services'. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2179
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 10:23 pm: | |
Dennis, there are multiple definitions of sin listed in the Bible. But I'm sure the one you want to focus on is the same one that the SDAs use as a favorite "proof text": 1 John 3:4. Notice that in the Greek it does not say, as the KJV incorrectly translates it, "the law" (which would refer to the Mosaic Law of 613 commandments), but rather it simply says "lawlessness."
"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4 NASB.)
And, in context, the specific "lawlessness" that John would be talking about would be the violation of the commandments listed in verses 22-24, which summarize the "Law of Christ" (which is the law that we happen to be under--see 1 Corinthians 9:20-21):
"22and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us." (1 John 3:22-24 NASB.)
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on September 27, 2007) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6895
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 10:50 pm: | |
I'm also enjoying this thread. I realized a few weeks ago that if Jesus is really the fulfillment of the law, the substance toward which the shadow pointed, He had to fulfill every function of the law. He had to be not only the sacrifice, the righteousness, the curse, the scapegoat, the city of refuge, the mercy seat, etc., but He has also to be the one to make us aware of sin, to point us to our own depravity.
I appreciate your reminding us of the text above, Jeremy, that Jesus told His disciples the Holy Spirit would come to convict the world of sin. If Jesus is the law's fulfillment, He has fulfilled every single function of the law. This reality is why the Mosaic law really is obsolete.
"Big" law is not obsolete--God Himself, His nature, His intrinsic Law--is eternal. But the words of the Mosaic covenant ("Little" law) have been fulfilled. Their purpose in convicting of sin is over. The Holy Spirit now has that job because of Jesus' sacrifice and defeat of evil.
Jesus, indeed, is our all-in-all!
Colleen |
Stevendi
Registered user
Username: Stevendi
Post Number: 242
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 6:29 am: | |
Dennis,
May I chime in on your question to Jeremy - "what is your definition of sin"?
My Bible tells me that "sin" is something we all do. Yes, the Bible gives multiple lists of behaviors that will be seen in a follower of God, but it then tells me that there is absolutely nothing I can "do" or "not do" to change my spots. Any notion that I can control my sin by any effort of my own is just another sin to add to the pile.
Regardless of how we define sin, or how many texts we use to support our opinions, it is the condition not the expressions of our offense to God that we must admit and submit to Him for healing. All worrying and fixing on my part are a waste of eternal time.
steve |
Larry
Registered user
Username: Larry
Post Number: 230
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 9:13 am: | |
quote:the Holy Spirit moved upon the penmen of Scripture who did provide us with ethical and moral lists. Let us honor and obey God's revealed will for our lives
Do we have evidence that the Holy Spirit was moving upon Moses, only to be sent again after Christs death?
Should we seek out these lists, refine them for ourselves, then apply them from the outside to our insides?
Was not the Holy Spirit sent to us to guide us and reveal Himself to us?
You mention "moral lists" and the next sentece you state "let us...obey". Is it fair to say you are recommneding we obey a list?
Is the Holy Spirit going to let me go astray unless I maintain a list somewhere?
Can you tell me what precise moral laws Adam and Eve should not violate? Can you prove they had a list on hand?
Ditto Noah and Abraham? Where did those people get their lists, and why are they not listed (being so important) in the Bible?
Do my scripture quotes here make you uncomfortable? Can you embrace them?
quote:The moral directives found in the Decalogue were not a sufficient moral guide for the Hebrew people
By this do you mean that there were implied morals in the KOSHER food laws or something. Or their were morals just waiting to be acted on in the 50 year Jubilee law? Care to explain yourself so that a poor gas-pump attendant can follow it?
Did a Chinese gentile, living in 110 AD, having no literal pages of the canon, have a severe disadvantage in not being able to peer at the written moral and ethical lists? He could have swung over to India on a spice exploration trip, and heard St. Thomas preaching you know. So he went back to China with no parchment pages in his hands, yet he was a believer in the true gospel, and possessed the Holy Spirit inside. Please address your comments to this new Chinese Christian. And remember he has never even heard of a white man named Sproul! Why does he get saved in that manner, yet I need to go hunt for moral and ethical lists on the printed page? Do you see that something is not squaring?
How about answering the questions here and on this post?
I like answers to questions. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1556
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 10:29 am: | |
Here’s where I drastically depart from Dennis, Dennis said “I fully understand your intense feelings against God's revealed will in Scripture.”
We got into this before, remember when I made the post that I used the 10 C’s for evangelizing the sinner, and then it pretty much went down hill on my end from there.
I said at that time that I was alarmed because it seemed to me most of you seemed to “resent” scripture itself, especially where it came to the 10 C, but we got that straightened out, some of you explained to me that that was not the case, and after an explanation by, I believe it was Colleen, I fully understood where you were coming from, since then I have had no problem with that concern.
But it seems Dennis still clings to this idea of us having as he put it “intense feelings against God's revealed will”.
I incorrectly interpreted you as having a down right “resentment” toward the Ten C and I voiced my concern about having resentment towards any part of God’s word, but we got that straight and moved on.
But now I think Dennis didn’t get it straight, pardon my speaking of you as if you weren’t present Dennis I am not doing it to be mean.
Now here is where I drastically disagree with Dennis, Dennis goes on to say here “I too once believed very passionately just like you do, after exiting Adventism, that God's holy moral laws were no longer binding--especially those found in the Old Testament. This so-called "Spirit-led antinomianism" is an overreaction to the legalism we endured under Adventism. The primary purpose of the Holy Spirit is to lead us into righteousness (right doing).”
The key I want to point to here is the word “Spirit-led antinomianism”, he then proceeds to say “Furthermore, we needlessly alienate our Adventist and fellow Christian friends by speaking against the moral precepts of God as found throughout the Bible.”
Then he goes on to say ” Spirit-centered antinomianism puts such trust in the Holy Spirit's inward promptings as to deny any need to be taught by the law how to live. Proponents of this form of antinomianism believe that God talks to them directly about how to live. This view further opens up the possibibility of accepting extra-biblical revelatory messages such as ecstatic utterances, channeling, and visioning.”
Now really look at this “Holy Spirit's inward promptings as to deny any need to be taught by the law how to live. And break it down further “deny any need to be taught by the law how to live” and you penetrate to the very heart of his arguments.
So you see here, Mr. Fischer has a problem and the separation from Spirit led Christians “is” the problem, I just spent a good amount of time in the theology section going head to toe with him on this.
Now where you all differ here, is not in moral law, or the fact that there is a moral law, or transference of moral law, in fact moral law is not even the issue, his real issue is with what he call’s “Spirit-led antinomianism”.
I think Dennis has a deep fear of “antinomianism” That word meaning “Antinomianism is the belief that Christians are liberated from the observance of moral laws when God's grace is active.”
And then he goes on to add to the word ” antinomianism” and extends that to “Spirit-led antinomianism” so to him anyone who claims to be led by the Spirit is into “antinomianism” because he goes on to say ”the view further opens up the possibibility of accepting extra-biblical revelatory messages such as ecstatic utterances, channeling, and visioning.”
To me it seems that he is still galloping down the same road that he galloped down in Adventism, he just changed horses. He just jumped from one saddle to the other without stopping or changing directions.
What I mean by this is that “condition” of being devoid of the Holy Spirit, where you folks have gone is from the dead form into being willing to be led by the Holy Spirit of God, but not to ignore the written word but rather to confirm the written word, so to many of you to be without the guidance of the Holy Spirit would be unthinkable for he has quickened your hearts to the word of God and are able to enter in to his rest and assurance that you are indeed children of God, as Jeremy so aptly put it “23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us." (1 John 3:22-24 NASB.)
We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."
That’s how we know that we have went from death “devoid of the Spirit” unto life in the Spirit.
Now again I take you too his statement “Spirit-centered antinomianism puts such trust in the Holy Spirit's inward promptings as to deny any need to be taught by the law how to live. Proponents of this form of antinomianism believe that God talks to them directly about how to live.”
You see, this is the take off point, he doesn’t believe that God talks to us DIRECTLY about how to live. That is the quandary of the cessation-ist. He is wrong when he thinks that the inner promptings of the Spirit leads away from the word when in fact the inner promptings of the Holy Spirit leads us “into” the Word, not away from it.
While there might justification for this fear from his view point due to various demonstrations that have went on around the country such as sign seeking, snake handling and a plethora of other stuff, that still is not justification for refusing to be led by the Spirit in any way shape or form, no more than it is excuse to not fly to Chicago because some nut ran a plane into a building.
But that’s what this is about, not moral law, we know its wrong to steal and kill and commit adultery.
Dennis’s real argument is with being led of the Spirit as is his real fear. Take away his “law” and he feels threatened by this as does the Adventist.
They talk of being led by the Spirit but it is just dry words, words without substance when in actually they trust nothing but their own mental abilities.
Cessation-ism suits some folks to a “T” because it relieves them of the responsibility of having to have faith, but God has a way of cutting the rug out from under you to where you must depend on him by and through raw faith.
It takes faith to be really be led of the Spirit, being led of the Spirit many times means letting go of your own understanding and just hanging on to Jesus for dear life. It forces us to listen for that still small voice that says “don’t worry, I have you”.
God has the ability to lead us to where we might not necessarily want to go and it takes faith when your world is stripped away, it seems that way with me right now, I was stripped away from everything I knew and ended up in a whole gagle of Adventist, But I have been listening for those inner prompting long enough to know that he has me and has not let go.
Brain power don’t mean much when you land in amongst a gagle of Adventist.
It may sound simple to you, but to me it’s like being dumped in a swamp full of gaters.
God has the ability to strip you right where you stand, your pretense at faith will melt away.
I guess that about take care of what I wanted to say, more or less, it may sound divisionary but is not meant that way, it’s just I get tired of circling and circling without getting down to business, that’s all. I hold no animosity toward anyone.
River |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 1080
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 11:28 am: | |
Thank you, River. You have written here much what I have been thinking on this topic lately, and have even cleared up for some of the spots I was making no headway in!
Thank you for speaking clearly, kindly, and concisely what I have not been able to articulate.
Mary |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1290
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 12:24 pm: | |
River,
Unfortunately, you are grossly distorting and misrepresenting my views in the areas of Christology, hamartiology, pneumatology, and soteriology. By the way, my position is identical, in these areas, as that of Dr. John MacArthur. You are in effect calling Dr. John MacArthur an "Adventist" which is an outright insult to him. If in doubt, please ask him.
Furthermore, I am a member of a church that teaches the identical theology as that of Dr. MacArthur. You need to gather the facts before you wrongly castigate and mislabel people on a public forum.
His grace still amazes me,
Dennis Fischer
(Message edited by Dennis on September 28, 2007) |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1557
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 2:09 pm: | |
Well Dennis,
I did not wrongly distort anything, not did I castigate you, I took my conclusions from your own writing on this thread and past threads, nor do I think I have mislabeled you in any way.
I did not feel any antagonism toward you when I wrote nor any was there any desire for repremand when I wrote, nor do I feel unfriendly toward you, even though you have angered me many times on this forum, but I keep sluffing it off for the sake of brotherhood, you even managed too upset Mark, which was a thing too see, I wrote exactly what I think and I wrote it without ill will.
I don't know who John MacArthur is, never heard of him so I don't think I am, in effect, calling him anything.
I regret nothing that I wrote because that is what I think is the real issue.
I wrote plainly and succinctly as to what I thought the situation was and still do think that.
At least from the effects my post had on you I can at least see that you are not completely robotic.
River |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6899
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 28, 2007 - 3:57 pm: | |
River, thank you for your post #1556. I finally understand the core of this discussion! I had been baffled because it seemed that my words were simply ignored.
Actually, the issue of learning to live by the Spirit is always an exercise in faith because it means surrendering my plans and desires to the Lord Jesus and learning to allow Him to make the truths of Scripture inform my life. Actually, the most rigorous discipline of my life has been learning to let go of my needs to be right and to rationalize my actions and reactions. This discipline has been the result of taking the very words of Scripture seriously, including Romans 8, and asking God to do in me what needs to be done.
Learning to live by the Spirit has meant repeatedly having to offer to God the things I have most loved—including things I did "for Him"—and asking Him to take my attachments and my desires and to give me a heart willing to surrender and trust Him, even if that means letting go of even my basic identity and opinions.
Learning to live by the Spirit still involves my asking God to teach me the truth—not just about doctrine but also about reality and about myself—as I study His word. Living by the Spirit does not replace Scripture; it depends upon Scripture. How will I know what can be known of God if I'm not immersing myself in His word?
But when I'm praying to know His will and to know what is true and real, the Holy Spirit makes the word like a surgical knife or a spotlight, deeply convicting me of my weakness and sin. This conviction is not always related to specific directives in the Bible. Sometimes it's a powerful realization of the truth as I study a passage not directly addressing my personal issues. Sometimes God gives me clear awareness of something I need to surrender or something I need to pray for—even related to other people.
Further, as I study Scripture, I experience the presence and joy of the Lord in ways I do not if I neglect His word. He does confirm Himself. He comforts and convicts me; He is real, and His presence is sometimes palpable. But if I fear giving up my logic and my mental systems to the Holy Spirit, reading His word reverts to my old experience with it: I find myself ignoring passages that don't make sense and camping on those that fit my paradigm.
You are right, River—the issue, I believe, is how much we're willing to give the conrol of our lives to Jesus through the certain and powerful way His Spirit teaches and convicts and comforts us as we anchor ourselves in His word. There is a definite surrender of control and new level of trust when we ask the Holy Spirit show us how to live and to do what He knows needs to be done in us.
Colleen |
Larry
Registered user
Username: Larry
Post Number: 232
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 2:38 am: | |
quote:Christology, hamartiology, pneumatology, and soteriology
Dennis, you are going to have to keep the fancy stuff to a minimum, so that a simple-minded-retired-trailer-park-lady, whose marbles have seen better days can get it! |
Stevendi
Registered user
Username: Stevendi
Post Number: 243
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 7:43 am: | |
Much of theology turns into religion because man feels he must have a handle on all mysterys. In other words, he must feel that he is RIGHT and in control of his destiny.
Once a position is taken, it can become a formula that we can sink our teeth into and use it as a protective shield against everything and everybody we don't have an answer for.
I believe that God does not want us to take these positions of authority based on HIS word, not our opinion of His word.
Ultimately, the word of God is a living, breathing testament that each of us is invited to experience on our own basis of connection with God via His Spirit. Why is it that we like to tell others what the Word should be saying to them? Is it that we think He needs our help explaining it?
Jesus is the Way, Truth, Life. The OT is old, explaining where we came from, where we went wrong, where we were redeemed. The NT is NEW, and it doesn't fit into old wineskin. It does not hold any power over the NT, nor does the NT change the history or content of the OT. OT supports NT, OT is fulfilled by NT, NT trumps OT.
steve |
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