| Author | Message | ||
| Lordsanointed Registered user Username: Lordsanointed Post Number: 15 Registered: 8-2007 |
Try to access: http://www.ellenwhite.org/index.html
Jeremiah 1:6-10/17-19 : 6 "Ah, Sovereign LORD," I said, "I do not know how to speak; I am only a child." In Christ, Lordsanointed | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 468 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thank-you for pointing this change out LA. I actually think the new website name will be more effective in its goal of giving a fuller, or more accurate account of the problems with the continuing and authoritative source of truth. I think that it will be a very hollow victory for those trying to preserve and hide away the Ellen White problem. The SDA church administration has ignored and continues to collude in making her out to be more than she is. Her words speak for themselves. Many or most of her strongest supporters really have no clue as to all the nonsense she has written. And no amount of lawsuits, or website name changes will keep this genie in the bottle any longer. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1493 Registered: 9-2006  |
Randyg. Thats just what I thought when I saw the new name, all I think they have done with their lawsuit is improve the website. Said a Japanese Admiral after the attack on Pearl Harbor "I am afraid that all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant" It will only have the owners of this website to fight all the harder, I pray that the Lord has awakened this "sleeping giant" River | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 470 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hey River, I thought "Midway" was a great movie as well. You sure couldn't find a more stellar cast. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 195 Registered: 5-2007  |
I thought the movie (Midway) great also, but there is one scene the gets me to a boiling point. When the USS Yorktown come into Pearl for battle damaged repairs and all the brass are down in the drydock. They make the comment that the shipwrights will get her out in time. Give me a break. Shipfitters, not shipwrights, work on metal hulls. I am a shipfitter myself and I worked with the crew, many years later, who did the work on the Yorktown. As for the White Estate, the Tinkers warned us some time ago that they are attacking all the anti-SDA websites including this forum. But River, I think you are right. All they are going to accomplish is "awaken a sleeping giant". Also, I have a theory that when the enemy is yelping, then we must be doing something right, so lets just keep on keeping on. Phil | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 473 Registered: 12-2004 |
Phil, I can see how that would stir your pot. I tend to find the term "anti-SDA" less accurate than some others like "Theological-integrity", or maybe "The Rest of the Story", or how about "Informed theology", The whole truth and NOTHING but the truth", or "Blessed Assurence Jesus is Mine". I think the SDA church loves to paint all "formers" as "anti", this is simply not the case. What "formers" are "anti" to is willful deception. I think on many levels, this thrives in Adventism. I do not hold the individual layman responsible for this, but I have to really question the ethics and moral fortitude of those in denominational administration who know better, and continue to collude in what I see as dishonesty regarding Scripturally unsubstantiated fundamental beliefs. All of my Adventist friends are my brothers and sisters in Christ. While they cherish distinctives that I now believe are non-salvic, and emphasize law over grace in many instances, I believe God is big enough to allow diversity in theological understanding. Just as I continue to grow, I know that God will continue to reveal His will to my Adventist family as well. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1496 Registered: 9-2006 |
Randyg, While I agree with much that you say. Are we and websites such as the website in question anti-Adventist? Well, on a personal level, of course not, its not against flesh and blood, the fight for the gospel is not against flesh and blood and its not with personal animosity toward anyone. Now you said something that I have struggled with for a long time, five years this year in fact. You said “All of my Adventist friends are my brothers and sisters in Christ. While they cherish distinctives that I now believe are non-salvic, and emphasize law over grace in many instances, I believe God is big enough to allow diversity in theological understanding.” Furthermore you said “Just as I continue to grow, I know that God will continue to reveal His will to my Adventist family as well.” I will deal with this statement first because it is the easy one. God has already revealed his will in his Word and its as simple as that. Now to the problem of “all my Adventist friends are my brothers and sisters “in Christ”. Randy, I have honestly struggled with this question, many a morning I have sat here and struggled with myself and God over this issue. I have struggled with it to the level of pain and consternation. The reason that I have struggled with it so is hard is because of love and concern for the personal welfare of my friends. I do not think there is anyone who can stand and accuse me of not having love and respect for my friends not could I nor anyone else accuse them of not having love and respect for me. So I have to say it as plainly as I can and I don’t just say this to you, but all on this forum and believe me when I say this, it is with much trepidation that I say it and the statement that I am about to make has been a long time coming, I have not arrived at this conclusion over night. Here is my statement for all of you to examine and rebuke or correct or whatever else anyone may deem necessary to say. For loves sake they have become my friends, but for the gospels sake they have become my enemy. I cannot claim them as my brothers or sisters in Christ even though some may be, that is simply because they hold to a false gospel and teach others so, regardless of their awareness of it or not and they cling to and propagate a gospel that brings no peace and the gospel is the gospel of peace and I cannot wish them God speed in their endeavors. It is not a matter of a point on baptism, tongues, other theological points we may disagree on and such like, it is a matter of propagating a gospel that starts wrong and ends wrong and it doesn’t bring peace, but division in families and friends. I challenge anyone to go and read the heart breaking stories on the front of this website and the stories held within this the annuls of this forum and then come back and tell me they propagate a gospel of peace and contentment and rest in Christ Jesus and tell it with a straight face. If they propagate a gospel of peace in Christ Jesus I am just hard put to sort it out from the witness of 3 or 60 witnesses on this forum. It’s not a matter of how big God is either, its a matter of how just he is and it’s a matter of how true his Word is, what did Jesus say? By every word that proceeds from the mouth of God wasn’t it? My friends the day we attempt to measure God’s bigness by his ability to overcome his own Word is the day when we start to just fool ourselves I think. Now as I said they very well may be brothers and sisters in Christ in Adventism, but I think it is safe to say that they won’t be there long if they begin to stand for the gospel of peace. Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. This is what I intend to do, but also God has put his Word in my heart what little I understand of it and more so day by day, its growing, not shrinking, and unfortunately all men do not agree with the Word that lays within me. We just can’t let the Word lay dormant and faith without works is dead and if we let the Word lay dormant just for the sake living at peace with all men our candle will burn low and begin to flicker. What is meant by “Faith without works is dead” is that the Word is being allowed to lay dormant, whereas “Faith with works is the Word coming forth” too the saving of souls. The work of the furtherance of the gospel is what we are left here to do, we can’t say we are a Christian but “its not my yob” it is our “yob” to allow ourselves to grow in the word and in grace so that others can see by the light of the Word. A false gospel can offer no light because it is cloaked in darkness. It does not per mote and point to Jesus, you can be sure though that it will point to itself. I just don’t think it is our business to point a finger and declare anyone saved or lost, as I said about uncle “from all outward appearances” he had not accepted Christ nor the gospel of Christ, “from all outward appearances” is a far cry from pointing a finger and saying “he was not saved” or from pointing a finger and saying “such and such person is unsaved and I am just not prepared as of right now to do it. But the gospel is like a fire that is shut up in my bones and it has to find an outlet. You take a person who prays and reads the word prayerfully all the time, if he does not find an outlet for that he will squirm and be miserable, he needs to find a way to begin ministering somewhere, I know a person like this who has spoken to me of a desire to go and minister on the reservations, Indian type, one each and that is good to want missions, but I am satisfied that what he needs to do first is just walk out on the back porch and yell just as loud as he can “God here I am!!!” he wants to go to the Rockies to look for diamonds when God may want him to find the ones in his own back yard. Sometimes it boils down to not the many but the one. I want at least one soul to lay at Jesus feet, I have already ask him for that. Don’t let Satan rob you, get up and claim a soul for Jesus and see it through. Well, I have gone and preached again! River | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 182 Registered: 5-2007 |
Randy, if you really believe that, you might as well never leave sda-ISM. "diversity in theological understanding" does not include calling God a liar. Every time an sda even thinks the thought that egw was sent of God and speaks for God, they are lying. And if the same sda speaks that thought at a Revelation Seminar, they are also lying. Care to reword the non-salvific comment? Could the Galations also be saved in their distinctives? We now have Seventh-Day Galations. Are your sda friends really your brothers in Christ who believe God used deception to start the church? Listen, Islam believes that Allah is a god that can lie too! Are they saved just as well? "deceitfulness of a false gospel" as River says. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 827 Registered: 11-2005 |
River, that statement is priceless. That is my sentiment exactly.
The fact is that they uphold and promote a "different gospel" which is really no gospel at all! The same applies for my Buddist, Hindu and Muslim "brothers and sisters". We are to show Christian love to all, but that doesn't mean that we then turn a blind eye to their false teachings. The Bible is very clear about this. It also tells us that their will be those who try to break down this distinction. We, who have been called by the Holy Spirit out of Adventism, have an even greater God-given responsibility to clearly expose the error that we came out of. Who understands it like us who have been "called"? If anyone has any question about whether the gospel of Adventism is a branch of the true Gospel, or another gospel altogether, I invite you to read the excellent article, "Are the Gospel and 1844 Theology Compatible?" - http://www.exadventist.com/Portals/0/Repository/Are%20the%20Gospel%20&%201844%20Theology%20Compatible%20by%20Brinsmead.pdf Once you read this there will be absolutely no doubt about where we must stand. God loves the sinner, but hates the sin. He expects us to do the same. Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 29 Days since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 329 Registered: 7-2005  |
River wrote: "For love's sake they have become my friends, but for the gospel's sake they have become my enemy." I really resonate with that statement, River. I'm married to a devoted SDA man, who is a wonderful husband. I am attempting to demonstrate my love for him by sitting next to him in the SDA church each week, but I will no longer put my money in the offering plate or help him hand out SDA literature at a Revelation seminar. My love only goes so far. Honestwitness | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2159 Registered: 10-2004  |
I agree, River. We can't fall into a relativism of "it doesn't matter what gospel you believe, God saves you anyway and accepts diversity," just because we care about these people and don't want to think that they are lost (I am assuming this is the reason, since we don't seem to do that with other false gospels/religions). Since we do care about them and love them, we need to pray for their salvation, and not tell them that we consider them "brothers and sisters in Christ"--imagine how dangerous that could be to their eternal soul if they are in fact unsaved! Why should they even listen to us at all, if we tell them: "you're fine, not to worry, you're saved!" No, we must assume that a person trapped in a false gospel and cult is unsaved. To do otherwise is terribly irresponsible and unloving. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 20, 2007) | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 828 Registered: 11-2005 |
Honestwitness, I know that is not easy for you, but you will slowly win your husband over by taking a stand in love. He is no doubt living what he was taught, and through your powerful witness, God will show him that there is life beyond Adventism. Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 29 Days since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 829 Registered: 11-2005 |
Jeremy, you are absolutely right! It is deceptive to affirm to them that "they are brothers in sisters in Christ" when it is a different Christ and a different gospel than what the Bible teaches. It just encourages them to think that there is a reason to stay in Adventism, and that Adventist cultic doctrine is not so bad after all. That is precisely what they are desparately hoping for. When we "dim the spiritual lighting" to make the contrast between the Seventh-day Adventist gospel, and Christ's Gospel seem more palatable to them we are not their friends. Friends don't mislead their friends by "dimming" down the difference. What kind of light unto their feet, and a lamp unto their path is that? Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 29 Days since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2160 Registered: 10-2004 |
Amen, Gilbert! Jeremy | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 196 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, I would like to clarify what I mean when I use an expression such as; "anti-SDA websites". I think and function in literal terms. With Ephesians Chapter Six in mind, I identify our enemy as Satan. So, when I use the "anti-SDA websites” expression, I am simply saying we are anti-satanic doctrines and practices. Looking at things from the SDA point of view, doctrinally we are their enemy for the same reason. We are "anti" (against) what they teach. It is not about the poor souls blinded or trapped in their system. They are the victims we, and the Lord Jesus Christ, are reaching out to. When I think of your uncle's passing, I consider my mother who died several years ago under almost the same circumstances. While she professed Jesus as her Savior to me, she said many other things that left me confused and wondering what she did believe. There is no way I can know if she was saved or not. And, her sister who was at our recent family reunion, stated that; "at least she turned back to the SDA faith and the true church". My aunt has no idea how those words saddened me. Phil (Message edited by philharris on September 20, 2007) (Message edited by philharris on September 20, 2007) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6833 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree, Gilbert, Jeremy, Larry, Honestwitness, Phil... Randy, I think I understand what you mean given the view from where you stand. As I step farther and farther back from my own entanglement with Adventism, however, and continue to interact with both Adventists and those leaving, I am more convinced than I ever was that we cannot assume Adventists are saved. To be sure, some are—but we can't know for sure in general, because Adventism is a false church with a false gospel and a false prophet and a false salvation. God is faithful, but Adventism is dangerous and devouring. I have to assume that in general, Adventists are people for whom I must pray for salvation—I cannot assume they are brothers and sisters in Christ. Do I love them? Yes. Was I one of them? Yes!! Do I see that they need to be free? A thousand yesses! It makes me think of how Paul felt about the Jews when he wrote Romans 10:1: "Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved." River, this sentence is profound: "For love's sake they have become my friends, but for the gospel's sake they have become my enemy." Thank you for saying it so well. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2163 Registered: 10-2004 |
"...and a false salvation." That's a great point, Colleen. A false gospel would result in a false salvation. But there's only one problem with that--they don't even claim to have salvation! Their prophet says that you can't know or say that you are saved. So if they themselves don't even claim to be saved, then why are we so quick to claim that they are saved? Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6835 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ohh--that's an interesting point, Jeremy. I remember a friend (former Adventist) telling me a few months ago that a Christian (never-been-SDA) friend of hers said once that if a person is saved, the Holy Spirit bears witness to them that they are saved. In fact, Romans 8:16 plainly states this fact. If people really don't have that deep assurance from God that they belong to Him, then, by Biblical definitions, they would need to do business with the Lord Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 832 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen, you articulate these issues so well. I really treasure your posts! Gilbert | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 186 Registered: 5-2007 |
It doesn't sound much like even a few of them could be saved, as they were, in Judaism, in that verse. Good points made by all. Thank you Randy for bringing it up. |
