| Author | Message | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 178 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hi everyone, Last week I saw a text go by that said God was not pleased by law keeping. Cannot remember if it was OT or NT, but I am thinking it was NT. I am kicking myself for having not copied it to my notepad! Can anyone help me find it again? Reason I am so interested in this right now is because the Baptist church we attended recently thinks they are still "under" the 10 commandments, but they are not required for salvation! Do we keep the 10 commandments because we love Jesus? | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 115 Registered: 6-2007 |
I don't "keep" the 10 commandments. I am not a Jew. God's moral law written on my heart may include some of the 10 commandments, but I do not "keep" the 10 commandments. The whole 10 commandment thing has become very interesting to me. I used to be all for public display of the 10 commandments. This summer we were in a museum with my parents (both SDA) and there was a huge monument of the 10 commandments there. My dad took a picture of it and commented on how beautiful it was to see that there on public display. I bit my tongue and kept silent. My stand on this has completely changed. I do NOT think they should be on public display anywhere. And the really interesting thing to me has been to discover that nobody (sda, non sda, nobody of any religion) seems to understand what the 10 commandments are a part of. They have no understanding of old and new covenant. Very interesting to me. I had no concept either as an adventist. I just cringe when I hear people refer to sunday as the christian sabbath. I could go on for hours, so I'll just stop. Laurie | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1268 Registered: 4-2000  |
Laurie, Although I don't personally agree with it, Sunday Sabbatarianism, in a special sense, could be easily considered a weekly Sabbath. After all, it is a weekly Easter and historically (even biblically) is known as "the Lord's day." Sunday Sabbatarianism isn't simply hinged upon the "one in seven" theory. It applies precisely to the Resurrection Day, celebrating the greatest event in redemptive history. There is nothing sinister or even remotely unsavory in celebrating the resurrection of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. If we feel compelled, on the other hand, to denounce or reject all moral directives in OT Scripture simply to get rid of the festal Jewish Sabbath, we dishonor God in a great way. While our obedience is far from perfect, this fact must not deter us to be, in any way, to be haphazard in our obedience to God's revealed will for our lives. Truly, God deserves our very best because we love and honor him. His moral laws, whether they be found in the Scripture or in the heart, are binding. We have no authority to violate His will. It is the godly person who meditates on God's law day and night. While we seek to be "led" by the Holy Spirit, it is vital to remember that the Holy Spirit is primarily leading us into righteousness. It is His revealed will that is our business, indeed, the chief business of our lives. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 117 Registered: 6-2007 |
But there are people who consider sunday the sabbath. My next door neighbor won't mow the grass on sunday. That is not right. Sunday is not the christian sabbath. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1269 Registered: 4-2000 |
Laurie, I wholeheartedly agree that there are no "holy days" in the Christian calendar. Sunday Sabbatarians don't all subscribe to legalistic rules. Unfortunately and unbiblically, some people try to make Sunday into a strict Jewish Sabbath. Although Sunday is not a holy day, it is a very special day for Christ-followers. The Christian Church was born on Sunday--Pentecost. Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1485 Registered: 9-2006  |
Larry, I think when they say that they are referring to this concept. James 2:1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. James 2:2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, James 2:3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, "You sit here in a good place," and say to the poor man, "You stand there," or, "Sit here at my footstool," James 2:4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts? James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? James 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? James 2:7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called? James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; James 2:9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. James 2:12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. James 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. Notice verses 2:8-9-10 which clearly speaks of the ten commandments, now I believe the concept is that the whole world is still under the Ten Commandments, we all have broken the Law, Christ paid for our sin of law breaking and thus our salvation from our unrighteousness is in Jesus, those that do not accept Christ will be judged by the moral law of God, i.e. do not steel, do not kill. They believe that the Ten Commandments has power today to convict and to judge. At least I believe this is the concept of what they are saying when they say that. I used those scripture to illustrate although they may use others. Now I may be wrong about this, but I believe that is the general concept. Of course most on the forum would appose that concept I believe and on the grounds that the Ten Commandments were done away with at Calvary and the old covenant no longer even exist, Is that about right folks? Now if you take from James this concept, James letter was written to the twelve tribes which of course were Jews. The covenant study is very much missing from the normal teaching of most evangelical churches I believe, I know I had never had one till I got here. Like Laurie, I keep the law written on my heart, I hardly ever even think about the Ten Commandments, although I think it IS good that they are on display as a constant reminder to the world that there is a God who will judge the world. I hope this helps to see though where this idea comes into play, and while, to the former Adventist the covenant study takes the lead because he/she needs to know why they should have no need to continue with Adventist type worship, its not a big deal with the normal Sunday worshipper and many times to him/her Sunday is the lords day, they are raised from infancy to go to church every Sunday and you above other people should know what that does and many of them don’t feel right about working on Sunday unless they just have to. You, as former Adventist should be aware that there are other folk “Raised” in a church system, but instead you come out of that looking for a church with a perfect doctrinal system, but it won’t be found, its like the illustration I gave earlier, there is a forest of churches and all kinds of trials through that forest. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6817 Registered: 12-2003  |
You're right, Laurie. Sunday is not the Christian Sabbath. Yes, the Holy Spirit's primarily job is to lead us into righteousness. He does this not by returning our attention to the law, but by convicting us to submit our temptations and sins to Jesus. Instead of impressing us to discipline ourselves to give up sins, the Holy Spirit convicts us to submit ourselves to God. He convicts us deeply of our sins, and He turns our eyes to the Lord Jesus and shows us that we must allow Jesus to occupy the places in our hearts where we hold onto pride, shame, fear, anger, and self-indulgence. He convicts us to submit our sins instead of to struggle with sin. When we give up our rights and our desires to the Lord Jesus, He gives us peace and resolution where the law ony brings guilt. Sins continue to dominate us unless we literally submit them to Jesus and ask Him to set us free and teach our hearts to trust Him, to teach us truth, to hold us in reality instead of in our self-indulgent frames of mind. And yes—Sunday is not a holy day, but it is a very special day for Christ-followers! He is risen! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2155 Registered: 10-2004  |
River, I don't see that verses 8, 9, or 10 "clearly speak" of the Ten Commandments. In fact, James is very clear that he is NOT in any way speaking of the Ten Commandments in those verses (8-10). He says in verse 8 that he is talking about "the royal law" of "You shall love your neighbor as yourself,". That "royal law" is not found in the Ten Commandments. You could keep all Ten and never have any love for your neighbor. Furthermore, the sin that James had just reprimanded the Christians for in verses 1-7 (showing partiality) cannot be found in the Ten Commandments! James is clearly not talking about the Ten. He says exactly what he is talking about in verses 8-10: "the royal law" of loving your neighbor as yourself (verse 8). And in verse 9, when he says: "but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors."--he is still talking about that same "royal law" obviously, since the Ten Commandments (which, by the way, are NOT a law in themselves anyway, they are merely part of "the Law" of 613 commandments) do NOT prohibit "partiality." Then in verse 10 he is transitioning into comparing the royal law with the Law of Moses in verse 11. The reason he quotes two of the Ten Commandments in verse 11 is simply to make his point to his audience (which is the Jewish believers who know the Law well) that if a person stumbles in one point of a law (whether it be the Law of Moses or "the royal law" of loving your neighbor as yourself) then he is guilty of breaking the whole law. The only mention of the Law of Moses or the Ten Commandments is in verse 11. Then in verse 12, he again goes back to discussing a different law--"the law of liberty." The Ten Commandments/Law of Moses is not a law of liberty, but of condemnation and death. The law of liberty is the New Covenant/Testament Law of Christ (Messiah). Nowhere in James, does he say that we are under the Ten Commandments. And anyone who is under the Ten Commandments would also have to be under the rest of the Law (all 613 commandments), since it is ONE Law. If a person breaks one part of it, they've broken it all (see James 2  )--all 613 commandments. "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, 'CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.'" (Galatians 3:10 NASB.) "And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law." (Galatians 5:3 NASB.) Also, James is not speaking to unbelievers about being judged--so that argument doesn't work. He is talking to believers about the judgment of rewards (2 Corinthians 5:8-10, Romans 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:10-15). I hope you don't take offense to this post, River, I just thought I should point out some of the problems that I saw with the way you were using James 2. The Adventists say the same thing--that James is talking about the Ten Commandments in verses other than verse 11--and they try to use that on "sabbath-breakers," by saying that they're breaking "the whole law" by "stumbling in one point" (sabbath). Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 18, 2007) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2156 Registered: 10-2004 |
One more thing. River, you wrote:
But will God judge the world for not keeping the 4th commandment?  (I'm not saying the display can't be a good reminder to people of God's judgment, though.) Jeremy | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 119 Registered: 6-2007 |
Jeremy I agree with your posts. That is why I do not like to see the 10 commandments displayed. When I was an adventist I would say "Yeah! they should be on display so everyone will see the sabbath truth". Now I say "we are not under the mosaic law." I do not think they should be on public display. Laurie | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6820 Registered: 12-2003 |
Good explanation, Jeremy. Just today we received yet another letter excoriating LAM for trying to abolish the law. The author equated the "royal law" of James 2 with the Ten Commandments, even linking verse 8 (royal law) with verse 11 (Ten Commandments) to "prove" that the royal law = Decalogue. James just doesn't say that. (And River, a display of the Ten Commandments can be a good reminder of God's judgment! But I know that the law written on your heart is the law of Christ...you are far more careful about motives and attitudes than if it were merely the Decalogue!) Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 414 Registered: 3-2005 |
Larry: I'm not sure exactly what you're referencing, but pick a Paul passage and you'll find he's very clear that Law keeping doesn't save us. So you're definitely on to something there! Also, I know that God wasn't pleased with the sacrifices and rituals of the Israelites. He wanted MORE. The idea is that He wanted their hearts...their faith. If you have time to listen or read a sermon on Galatians, I'd HIGHLY recommend the Galatians series by Bryan Clark from Lincoln Berean Church. http://www.lincolnberean.org/equipping/sermons/year2002_html In particular, in regard to what (I think) you're talking about, the sermons on Gal. 2:11-21 and 3:1-14 are very insightful. In Jesus, Patria (Message edited by patriar on September 18, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1488 Registered: 9-2006 |
Nope, not the least bit offended Jeremy. You said “ I don't see that verses 8, 9, or 10 "clearly speak" of the Ten Commandments.” James 2:11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. These are not in the 10 commandments? Jeremy I know what James is talking about, your preaching to the quire, but there are other folks out there that take scripture like this to mean that the whole world is still under the Big Ten. I don’t get the problem you had with the way I used the text when I was talking about misuse of the text, did I say it wrong? I am not arguing for the Ten Commandments, I am simply saying to Larry that there are people all over the place right in the evangelical church who believe that the Ten Commandments are still very much in effect. Also, I at least attempted to make the point that there are other folk who are raised in a system, they really don’t know why they believe it, they were just brought up in church to believe it. Now did you read my post carefully and in context Jeremy, or did I make a mess of what I wanted to say? Again Jeremy and Larry too, if you read it that way, I am not talking about proper use of scripture I am talking about improper use of the scripture. But Jeremy, thanks for the lecture on the Ten C’s anyhow, Heh Heh. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2157 Registered: 10-2004 |
River, I realized right after I posted that I probably did misread the one paragraph of yours right after the verses from James as being your own position rather than stating someone else's position. But my main point was that verses 8, 9, and 10 are not talking about the Ten Commandments. Yes, verse 11 is, but verses 8-10 are not. I hope that clears up what I was trying to say. Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1270 Registered: 4-2000 |
By the way, the person who loves and honors his parents doesn't come under the all the civil, ritual, and judicial laws of Moses. There is nothing not to like about God's holy, moral laws--whether they be found in Scripture or in your heart. Why should we not meditate day and night upon God's changeless, holy, moral laws specifically placed in our own heart? Dennis Fischer | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 179 Registered: 5-2007 |
I will have to go thru my internet history and then do a page search for the word "please", but that means I need to know which day it was! I did find this at biblegateway, it could be the one, not sure: Hebrews 11:6 (NIV) And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Seems as if the writer is saying that it is faith that pleases God. Is it honest to say that faith plus 10C's pleases God? That is almost a loaded question, because in my search of biblegateway, I found tons of stuff where Paul is extolling the Law. Pretty weird. I do not like the kind of ride where there are conflicting statements. Move over Jim02! Romans 3:31 (NIV) Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Romans 2:13 (NIV) For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Romans 7:22 (NIV) For in my inner being I delight in God's law Romans 7:25 ((NIV) Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. 1 Corinthians 9:21 (NIV) To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 180 Registered: 5-2007 |
Do you also mean the 4th commandment and the literal Saturday sabbath? Can we prove that sabbath was not a moral law? They would kill people for picking up sticks on sabbath, so how is it not moral? This creeps me out, because the sda church could get traction from the same sayings. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1271 Registered: 4-2000 |
Larry, The Sabbath never was considered a MORAL law--not even by the Jews. It is clearly listed among the festal convocations given to "the sons of Israel" in Leviticus 23. The special sacrificing and shewbread replacement requirements every Sabbath clearly identify the weekly Sabbath as ritual or ceremonial in nature. Amazingly, I have never met an Adventist who actually denied that the shewbread did not point to Jesus, the Bread of Life or the sacrifices as well. In short, the weekly Sabbath cannot be properly observed without the Levitical system being fully in place. It is very easy to determine from the Bible alone that the Sabbath is NOT a moral law. We greatly err when we attempt to do biblical gymnastics to attack God's holy, moral laws simply to get rid of the festal Jewish Sabbath. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4316 Registered: 3-2004  |
Loving God with all our heart, soul and mind and our neighbor as ourself entails so much more than the 10 C. It goes into motives and our secret thougts. These are the things I think about. Diana |
