| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1436 Registered: 9-2006  |
Adventist seems to me, an outsider, to be very clannish. It reminds me of a story that happened to my older brother who was doing some electrical contracting in the small town he lived in the hill country of Arkansas just 60 minutes north of Conway Arkansas, we were both born and raised in that area of the country and I do mean ”country”. In 1978 a notice came out in the local newspaper from the local utility company for bids for the wiring of homes in a nearby outlying community, seems as if they did not have electricity in that area. Hard to believe but true. I remember when we did not have electricity but I was really young, it was around 1947 when the power poles were put up, anyway on to the story. My brother saw the notice and responded with a bid and drew the bid so he hired my younger brother and they went over there and went to work wiring this community for electricity. They began by wiring one of the two local churches first at the request of the people, they got the church wired and came back on Monday to test that among other test and the church was burned to the ground. My brother ask a neighbor what happened to the church and the neighbor said “Its best for you not to ask questions” “Just do your work and leave”, apparently the two churches were feuding and it was set fire too. Very clannish people, they are cordial to outsiders but they do not accept people who have not been born there, in fact they are very slow to accept people who move there, they say of people who move there “Oh, that is that fellow from California who moved in here a few years ago”, it doesn’t matter that it was 10 or 16 years ago they moved there, they remain “That newcomer from California”. California to them is a whole other country. Hard to believe that a community could remain so backward to even be without electricity for 40 years behind the rest of the county seat just 20 miles away. A very dangerous place to go fooling around in I might add, a people very clannish and trusting of no one from “outside” and they ALL got guns. My brother said when he was testing a house with 12 volts the lady and man kept switching the light bulb on and off and just staring at the bulb as it went dark and then lit up again, no more darkness. I would imagine that it might be that way with the former Adventist; he just keeps reading and rereading the scripture to marvel at the bright light that has been turned on. But then that’s not what I am writing about, the Adventist put me in mind of those clannish people, having and impenetrable in circle in a way, born under generations of Adventist and very clannish. Just an observation, I may be wrong, I know I was wrong one time I just can’t remember when!  River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6762 Registered: 12-2003  |
Very true, River. I met a young woman this weekend who is married to an Adventist. She herself has never been a member, but she is a Christian. She was commenting that she just wasn't accepted and couldn't really make friends. She commented that the "generational" aspect of Adventism seemed strong and confusing to her. You're right about the clannishness! Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1437 Registered: 9-2006 |
What seems amazing to me Colleen is that God has given me favor with these people, very clannish indeed,They know and I know that I am not part of that inner circle. Actually I don't want to be part of it. But God is able to give us favor no matter the clannishness and when his purposes are fulfilled, whatever that may be, then that favor will no longer matter. I don't give myself the credit because I know to whom the credit belongs, I only hope that I am able to use that favor to his glory. River | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 687 Registered: 5-2007 |
When I was an Adventist, as a convert, I always had the feeling I was a "second class citizen". | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6766 Registered: 12-2003 |
Praise God, River! God will use this for His glory. His purposes always succeed. Colleen | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 106 Registered: 6-2007 |
Yes - they are clannish. And they are all related. We spent many years in a very very small church in a very small town. There was only one black family in the church. It was a joke between them and us that our two families were the only two in the church that were not blood relatives. I refer to the business meeting when my membership was voted on as my "shunning". Clan... cult.... all the same. Laurie | ||
| Lucybugg Registered user Username: Lucybugg Post Number: 87 Registered: 2-2007 |
That's the thing about being an adventist..no matter where you go in the world you'll find someone who knows you or your family. When I was in labor with Dakota the nurse came in and commented about our last name. She said I went to college with some Mc's but you couldn't possibly be related to them and then she named my FIL, and his brother and sister. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 177 Registered: 5-2007  |
My father, a third generation SDA, was very bitter towards the SDA church because of the issue of money. Because of the great depression, both of my parents dropped out of school at about age 17. After they were married, in 1939, they decided to return and finish their high school by going to Lauralwood Academy in Oregon. In the struggle to pay the tuition, he became very embittered and considered the SDA church much more interested in money than reaching out to someone in need of help. His hatred for them and Christian denominations in general stayed with him all his life. The last, and only positive statement, I ever heard him say was that he had finally found a true Christian, the man he was working for at the time of his death. I have had similar experiences but my father's story will serve to make my point. Even though we were from a long time SDA family, we were "second rate". Even though I was a fourth generation SDA I never really fit in. My point is that it takes more than the right "blood" to be accepted. Phil | ||
| Lucybugg Registered user Username: Lucybugg Post Number: 88 Registered: 2-2007 |
It takes money. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4299 Registered: 3-2004  |
Phil, I have to agree that it takes more than being an SDA to fit in and be accepted. I never was. In fact my best friend, in SDA academy, was told by some of the student leaders that if she quit running around with me, she would be invited to their private parties, etc. She did not do that. Then I graduated from LLU and made good money, not a doctor/dentist/nurse but a therapist, but I never was accepted. You know I stayed with that church until 3 1/2 years ago. I am glad I did not leave over not being accepted. Just my thoughts. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6777 Registered: 12-2003 |
That's a good point, Diana, on a couple of levels. First, I don't think any of us left over not being accepted. That was just an unpleasant price to pay for HAVING THE TRUTH. Further, it's not just money that makes one accepted--although it helps. There is a distinct "classism" built around the medical profession. Physicians are accepted...even if they're a bit odd or otherwise socially marginal. Dentists also are accepted, although physicians might have a bit of an "edge". For women, being a nurse is acceptable, but she would better herself if she married a physician. Para-medical professionals, such as OT, PT, etc., are OK--but they can never hope to have the status of physicians and dentists. Ministers have their own special status, but never with the same honor and respect as the MDs or DDSs. Ministers have access to the heirarchy and to the power structure more directly, and the larger and more wealthy the church, the more status the pastor has. Pastors who are in outlying districts where they might have two or three tiny churches are more pitied...they command a certain respect just because they're ministers and make the same salary as ministers from larger churches, but they obviously don't have "what it takes" because they could never make it to a big church. Pastors of college/university churches are at the top of the pastor-game. Other professions such as engineers, professors, even lawyers also command certain respect, especially if they make good money. But more important (it seems to me) is that these professions imply education and intelligence. These are two commodities that are highly valued in Adventism--no doubt because it is thought that the Holy Spirit resides in and functions through the mind. (Education at SDA schools is encouraged in order to equip minds to perceive the Holy Spirit.) The doctors (both medical and dental) tend to "run the church" because they have the money. They sit on the board, often hold the office of treasurer, can fund programs they particularly like...etc. I believe that this elevation of physicians and dentists stems from Ellen's exaltation of "the right arm of the message" or "the right arm of the gospel": The Medical Work. In certain communities, especially where there is a large SDA medical center (Loma Linda, Portland, Or; Kettering, OH, etc come to mind), the "caste system" is invisible but firm. No matter how clever or smart or accomplished one might be (or how capable one's children), they cannot rise above their professional status or that of their parents. Yes, money and talent help, but they don't make up for not being a "doctor". I hope I'm not misunderstood as bitter...I actually find the whole thing somewhat amusing! But I know how powerful these subtle but definite "status" requirements are. One of the best things that ever happened to my perspective was coming to our church and not being able to tell which people were the physicians! No one referred to them as "Dr. Anybody". They were just Scott and Joe and Linda, etc.....and they dressed just like everyone else in jeans or khaki shorts in the summer. I was shocked when I began to learn which people were doctors. (Isn't that pathetic?!) Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4301 Registered: 3-2004 |
When I was married and moved to Montreal, Quebec with my then husband, I went to the nearest SDA church, by myself. I found a seat and sat down. People came along and crowded me over. It turned out that everyone had their place to sit and if anyone sat there, they would be crowded out or asked to move. Not only that. After the service I was asked if my husband was a med student at McGill University. I said no. After that very few people spoke to me. I learned later that the LLU/any other SDA medical students who interned at McGill were given special status. And I still stuck with adventism!!! Diana | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1451 Registered: 9-2006 |
As I have several Adventist friends, doctors, dentists, even a scientist out of JPL and one of my friends, the closest one in fact, is a plain old worker in plants, he was at my house one day and he wistfully made the remark that he wished he were like certain of our educated friends and I sort of scolded him for that and I told him he was as good as anyone and never to say that again. I just blurted it out before I knew it. He just looked embarrassed. Now I see why he said what he said. It's rather sad don't you think? It really makes me hurt for the man. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6785 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, it is sad. He has a "stigma" on himself that he cannot undo as long as he is Adventist. It's built into the system. Colleen | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 178 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thanks to this thread I think I am now understanding why my grandmother (dad's mother) had so much apparent power in the SDA church. Several times I witnessed a situation where she called the conference headquarters and people jumped to her bidding. At the time it perplexed me that she had this power. Consider: 1. Both her and my grandfather were trained as nurses at the St Helena Sanitarium. 2. They personally knew EGW. 3. They were the perfict couple, married at the Sanitarium. 4. They went to the mission field in China. As Colleen points out; the medical profession is held very high. Apparently, that gave her great power. Alas, none of that passed on to me. I grew up in a humble situation, and Dad was very outspoken against the SDA church. The paradox is that Grandmother's father was an alcoholic and died hidden away in a county hospital. For six years he was there, abandoned and helpless. I spent years looking for him because my "good" SDA family lied to me rather than admit what happened to him. It was better to pretend he didn't exist rather than help him. Phil | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 461 Registered: 12-2004 |
Colleen, Your analysis of the of the medical/dental heirarchy is right on. It is a definite caste system although not often spoken of. The whole process starts well before medical school, often in academy, but definitely by the time someone arrives at an SDA college. The Pre-med people are all smart and they know it. I recall the annual visits to WWC by Rene Evard, the recruitment liasion (God) from LLU as he would come up for the question and answer. In hindsight as I chose to go into Podiatry(a definite step down in the eyes of many) instead,(but the right choice for me) I look back at those dinners as the ultimate in brown noser affairs. There was much hoopla amongst the colleges when the acceptances would finally come out, and the "chosen" would be acknowledged in the school newspaper. There would be a breakdown on how WWC compared to PUC and LSC as far as numbers accepted to LLU. If a person instead got accepted to medical school at U of W, or Oregon, or Arizona, it barely made the back page. And those who ultimately went to a DO school were definitely looked at sideways. I remember some of my pals in the biology program that went into Graduate school instead of medicine. I have spoken to several over the years, now full professors at state universities, they have mentioned how thankful they are that they followed their dreams, despited feeling like second class citizens while at WWC. These are also the ones the the Biology and Chemistry faculty members are most proud of, as they too had to make that medical school or graduate school choice many years earlier. These are the ones that the faculty felt were in it for the love of the science, not just the grade. Of course, this whole caste system went to the next level once the chosen arrived at LLU. There now was not only medical school to contend with, but now it was striving for the lucrative specialties, a whole new caste system, where the surgeon is king, and the family practice guy is the loser. If you were to speak to the nurses on the floors, at the training hospitals, they could tell what specialty the residents were simply by how they were treated, and the attitudes of the students or residents. I have heard a ton of stories in this regard. Okay, enough rambling for now.....just my point of view as I remember and reflect.... | ||
| Lucybugg Registered user Username: Lucybugg Post Number: 89 Registered: 2-2007 |
When my husband was a freshman at GCA everyone wanted to be his friend when they found out that his dad is a pathologist. As soon as they found out that neither my husband nor his dad acted like they had money they weren't so interested in being friends any more. | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 107 Registered: 6-2007 |
Colleen - You are so right about the way adventists regard physicians. The church we left had two Loma Linda trained physicians. Both elders, one the head elder. They could do no wrong no matter what they did. One sabbath, my daughter (in the junior ss class) told me that Dr _____ told her in class that vegetarians were first in God's eyes, people who ate clean meat were 2nd in God's eyes, and people who ate unclean meat were 3rd in God's eyes. She never went back to that class. I let her go back to the primary class until we left. That was unbelievable to me. Why would he say such a thing to small children? Very shortly after that I was on the nominating committee. When his name came up for the junior class teacher I told the committee what he had said. I told them he should never teach a class again. I begged them not to reinstate him. They kept him in the class. Nobody cared that he told my daughter she was 2nd best in God's eyes. He was a Loma Linda physician and could say and do anything he wanted. Laurie | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6792 Registered: 12-2003 |
Laurie, I'm sorry--but praise God you got out and took your family! Randy, I remember the name Rene Evard and those dinners. It's a hazy memory because I wasn't on a medical track, but many of my friends were. I had a most interesting conversation last Saturday at our older son's roommate's wedding. He's an emergency medicine resident at Loma Linda, but he's never been SDA and is a life-long Christian. At the reception we sat with a young couple who had known "the roommate" through medical school. The husband is a family practice resident somewhere in Ventura County (not LLU), and he had graduated from LLU Med School. (He and his wife also have never been Adventists. Actually, they were very alive Christians who have been considering a "career" of church planting with medicine as a "tent maker's job".) This particular young man was unusual in that, while he was at LLUSM, he actually read both of Dale Ratzlaff's books because he made a personal study of the Sabbath. He understands Adventism better than most Christians. But here is the really interesting detail. The wife is a nurse, a graduate of Biola University (a So Cal Christian school). She worked in emergency at LLUMC as an RN while her husband was in med school. Most recently she has been working in emergency at a "secular" hospital. She said that the difference in how she as a nurse was treated at the hospital where she is now compared to Loma Linda was striking. She said the nurses are treated far more respectfully at the particular secular hospital where she has currently been. Yes, the pre-med thing at WWC was intense. And getting accepted was quite political, too. I had a very dear, very bright friend (a young woman) who tried twice and couldn't get in. A classmate, never quite as much of a student as my friend, got in apparently because she knew people who could "pull strings". My friend "settled" for a different medical profession...but I'll never forget the deep feelings of being treated unfairly... Amazing, isn't it...the "right arm of the gospel" just shouldn't create so much pain, competition, and devastation. Praise God He has pulled us, before we even knew the implications, into reality in Jesus! Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1458 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well, I was gonna go be an Adventist but I would never make the grade, I especially wonder what one of my friends thought when he pulled up to my trailer house in his 100,000.00 motor home, least I had a field for him to turn around in and it took a field to turn the thing around. Here I got meat in the freezer and guns hanging on the wall in my office, an automatic rifle with a huge scope and a double banana clip (we don't let meat get away) and a full choke pump shotgun (we don't let ducks and pheasant get away neither). Ya know I have a feeling I don't make a big impression, maybe they keep coming back hoping I'll feed'em er something. If'en I had to gas up one of them motor homes i'd have to make credit card payments on it for a year. Well, now the cats out of the bag, I am pore as a blue tick hound. The nearest I ever come to medicine is when the doctor told me to take an asprin and call him sometime next year. I guess he din't like my dog pulling on he pants leg. Boy, its jest a good thing I decided to take third grade over steada sign'in up fer Adventism, when they said Adventism I thought they said badmentin and I wuz all for it. I guess I am gonna have to change my cow horn I been listen'in through fer one of them electronical gadgets them young fellers say you can hear a dear awalk'in with what sells at radio shack fer 14.95 and comes with a free battery, that way I won't misunderstand them religious folk no more. course if'en I had a signed up I am purty shore they would took me into the surgical unit cause them fellers they got ain't to much fer smart's, why I seen'em take a guys leg off and it took'em 20 minutes, shucks I coulda sawed through that leg with my chain saw in less than three seconds. I guess nobody told'em about chain saws down at that medical school, shoot, I cud have skunt a dear in less time than that. My aunt May Belle kin beat that. I ask'em if'en they wuz up fer a hoe down and supper with chitlin's and cornbread, but they said "No they had to get right back on the road" I guess they wuz in a hurry to get to the next gas station fore it closed, I can't see as I rightly blame'em, if'en that thang ran out of gas you'd never git'er out of the ditch after these fellers pushed him off'en the mountain roads with their four wheel drives. River | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 462 Registered: 12-2004 |
As I have reread my previous post on this thread, I am afraid that my comments generalize, and paint with too broad a brush. As I spoke of what I saw as a systemic situation, I failed to point out the many wonderful graduates of the LLU schools of Medicine and Dentistry that I know, and admire. I would hate that my general comments about the way things were during my school experience might taint in anyway these fine Physicians and Dentists. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6797 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, Randy, I for one didn't mistake your meaning. My doctor and my dentist are Loma Linda grads, and they are WONDERFUL. I think the point—at least my point—was that at the college level (and also at the graduate level), there is so much angst over whether or not one will be accepted. Some are, some aren't—and they are not always that different from each other. The competitive atmosphere is exacerbated by the church's intrinsic unspoken "caste system". I don't blame the students for these problems. They come from the organization itself. A friend of mine said to me this afternoon, "The problem with cults is that they don't only teach you untruth; they make it so you can't actually find truth." The brainwashing is so deep, so deliberate, that people can't even contemplate that reality might be something completely different from what they know. Cultic groups create internal politics, internal dynamics that make the situations you described above, Randy, inevitable. These things are not, again, the fault of the students. They are actually, in a real way, victims of the system, too. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1460 Registered: 9-2006 |
Randy, I too understood perfectly well your meaning, these caste systems are wrong in any society, they very well exist, but they are wrong, if the only reason we study is to be lifted up in our pride instead of an opportunity to work in a particular field of endeavor, then we study for the wrong reason and it is sure to be a hindrance once we arrive in a real world situation where life and death may hang in the balance. These caste systems have no place especially in the church for God is not a respecter of persons. As I said earlier one of my Adventist friends made the remark that he wished he could be like them, meaning the Doctors, attorneys and scientist of our group of friends, he said it wistfully and with disappointment in his voice and I detected the hurt, this was not idle conversation. What he was doing literally was inadvertently exposing a wounded spirit, oh he was quick to cover it back up, but it was already too late, I had seen the wound. Now what kind of a church produces this kind of thing I ask you? People want to be fulfilled, accepted for the unique being that they are, the opposite of acceptance is rejection and rejection causes serious issue’s in folks lives and it causes bruising of the spirit whether the bruising is intentional or not, it causes emotional trauma and possibly even physical trauma and it has no place in the church. Most any doctor can tell you cases of physical illness produced by the inner illness of someone and they will tell you the cure is not more pills. We all have a need to be validated by our brothers and sisters and it is the love of God that validates, the Holy Spirit validates us, why can’t we validate one another? But instead of seeking to validate our brothers and sisters we create caste systems which can never really validate anyone and in the churches fer cryin out loud! Is that kind of thing according to the Word? Well, lets just take look see. James 2:1 My brethren, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. James 2:2 For if a man with gold rings and in fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, James 2:3 and you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, "Have a seat here, please," while you say to the poor man, "Stand there," or, "Sit at my feet," James 2:4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts? James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brethren. Has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to those who love him? James 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court? James 2:7 Is it not they who blaspheme that honorable name which was invoked over you? James 2:8 If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well. James 2:9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. The caste system carries with it a heavy penalty according to Brother James, at least that’s the way I read it and it does not belong in our churches does it? It is probably just another outgrowth of a church based on a false theology, a system of belief that can only produce the fruit of injury and uncertainty. And if we become involved in caste systems within a church, we better darn well be uncertain as to where we stand with God according to what I just read. Not being accepted or validated by the church I am convinced can cause deep emotional wounds that are harder to heal than a bed sore which can demand constant care and debreeding. Personally, I don’t know about you folks but I am concerned for the condition of this people that are subject to this sort of thing and have been subject to it in the past, I really don’t know what I can do about it, but I feel their must be something so I just chip away at it. It may be a useless endeavor, but I cannot, not chip, I guess it’s just in me to chip that’s all, so I chip, I’m a chipper and if you get too close your liable to get chips in your eyes. The Adventist church is not the only one with caste systems by far so we are not dealing with just one problem, it entails a whole set of problems, it may even be a problem in me and if it is I want to get rid of it. It causes a bad taste in my mouth and a knot in the pit of my stomach. We need to get these things out and open them up to the gospel and let them be healed instead of slapping a band-aide on it. There are certain wounds that the body sustains that take a great amount of careful attention and time to heal and there are spirits of people that sustain wounds that take a great amount of time to heal and a great many times it is because we cover it up and stuff it down in some crevice of our inner being and it just sits there and bleeds. We sing about “What a day that will be, when my Jesus I will see’ When I look upon his face, the one who saves me by his Grace’ But he wants us to look upon his face now and he wants to heal now. If our Adventist friends and family could only see that, not to look to some unattainable future thing, but to look at the Jesus of now, then they could be healed. I guess I have said too much, but my heart is breaking for the one who has been left by the side of the road this morning and tears dim my eyes. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6801 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, thank you. Jesus turned our natural tendency to honor prestige on its head, didn't He? Philippians details the complete humbling of the eternal Son to become a man, take on a mortal body, and to die as a sacrifice in an act of pure obedience. And, He told His disciples, a servant is not greater than his master. Add to these details the fact of God preparing in advance the work He has for us (Eph 2:10) and God granting gifts of the Spirit as He wills to people, regardless of their natural talent or formal training, we get a picture that bears no resemblance to natural human ways of living. We are all creations of the almighty God. It's hard to imagine that He gives us roles to play in His story! Colleen |
