| Author | Message | ||
| Mommyk Registered user Username: Mommyk Post Number: 38 Registered: 4-2007  |
...to people between the time they "pass" the Investigative Judgment and the 2nd coming? What if that person sinned the next day? | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 814 Registered: 7-2004  |
The way I understood it, they won't sin. That's the point - no one passes until they reach a point of perfection where they will never sin again. That's the point the person is "ready for heaven" and can be trusted to behave themselves in heaven. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4287 Registered: 3-2004  |
Raven, the way I understood it is, they would not know they were ready for heaven until Jesus second coming. So even if they were perfect, the person does not know it. Diana | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 75 Registered: 4-2004 |
I always understood it the way Raven stated it. What doesn't make sense is that everyone before 1844 did not need to reach a state of perfection that lasted for any length of time. If you died in 1843 you were judged differently than if you died in 1910. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6749 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, Raven, you're right—and Diana, you're right, too. I also learned that even if perfect enough to be saved, the righteous would spend the time of trouble hiding from those hunting them and agonizing over their sins, trying to remember if there was anything yet unconfessed. They would plead with God to forgive and save them, but they could never be sure they were OK. You know, these teachings totally fly in the face of the clear words of Scripture. Romans 8 16-17 cays the Spirit testifies with our spirits that we are sons of God; Ephesians 1:13-14 says the Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing what is to come. No wonder we were tired and despairing so often. Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1060 Registered: 8-2004  |
Hmm, isn't doubting whether we are saved a case of not believing God who has promised that He will save to the uttermost whoever comes to him? So how, presuming that they were otherwise sinless, could they be sinless even then? It's amazing the roadblocks EGW tried to lay to waylay our faith! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Wooliee Registered user Username: Wooliee Post Number: 95 Registered: 6-2005 |
It is just so sad how EGW keeps being validated by the SDA church by people who know better. A couple of weeks ago a SDA pastor was trying to explain the IJ to me, and not too long ago I would have felt so inadequate for not understanding it completely and guilty too because there must be something lacking in my faith to make me not understand it. This time I just praised God that He made it so easy to understand the Gospel. It also amazes me how angry some SDA's get when you mention error in EGW or certain doctrines. More so it seems than if one said Jesus is not Lord. I know that is not true in every case, but it sure has been in some of my experiences. Praise God He has forgiven our sins past, present, and future! It is Amazing Grace!!! | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 167 Registered: 5-2007 |
It recently became crystal clear just what sda-ism produces... For months I have been showing my sister the lies involved with sda-ism, and the corresponding truths of the Bible that refute these lies. Not all the lies are overtly egw (to my sister, as she does not believe in egw), as I took some of them out of the book called "Seventh Day Adventists believe..." which we all know is based on egw. Finally, little sis just comes out and says "the truth does not matter". Just like that. That is the end result of believing that way, in my opinion, and she said what others of that persuasion understand not to say. I cannot tell for sure whether she has been given over to the lie, as 2 Thess 2 describes, but she sure could use extra prayer! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2131 Registered: 10-2004  |
Wow, Larry, that is unbelievable. I am so sorry--I can't imagine how that would make me feel to hear that. Praying, Jeremy | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 174 Registered: 5-2007 |
Jeremy, Frustration is how it feels. She is somewhat well to do and employs a housekeeper, which lil sis is also proselytizing in favor of sda-ism. So here she is saying truth does not matter, while still trying to convert her housekeeper. I have warned her many times not to preach what she does not know. No effect apparently. Once my wife and I were giving her a Bible study, and when she saw our NIV Bible, she gave a derisive little laugh, but refused to explain why she laughed at our Bible. She still won't and it has been months. I am of the opinion that only the devil and his minions would ever laugh at the Bible. Is there any other group that laughs at it? I am afraid this is merely another outplaying of sda-ism. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 763 Registered: 11-2005 |
Larry, Seventh-day Adventist Book Centers have books (which I have purchased) ripping apart the NIV version. The same logic always compares it with the King James Version. Funny thing is that Seventh-day Adventists don't include the Apocrypha in spite of the fact that it was part of the original 1611 King James Bible. Ellen White specifically stated Ellen White and her husband felt comfortable using the Apocrypha for some of their source material. http://www.ellenwhite.org/refute7.htm Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 19 Days since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6750 Registered: 12-2003 |
Larry, I am so sorry. I agree with your concern...I also agree that this result is the outplaying of Adventism. There's no question that Adventism is dangerous and blinds people to the gospel, and only evil would blind people to the truth. With prayers for your sister, Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6751 Registered: 12-2003 |
Wow, Gilbert--I didn't know Ellen approved of the apocrypha! So interesting...I just find it amazing that we (I, at least) was taught the apocrypha was "Catholic". Colleen | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 680 Registered: 5-2007 |
Apparantly, though Ellen either ignored or misunderstood 1st and 2nd Maccabees, the 2 books of the Aprocrypha that most Protestants consider historically accurate even if they aren't canon. If Ellen had read and properly understood the 2 books of Maccabees, she would see that Miller grossly misinterpreted Daniel 8:14, it was fullfilled by the Maccabeean Revolt against Antiochus Epiphanes IV, NOT in 1844. Just another example of Ellen talking out of both sides of her mouth not really knowing what she was saying. (Message edited by Reb on September 11, 2007) | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 325 Registered: 7-2005  |
In Sabbath School class one day, our teacher mentioned the NIV Bible and said it was so bad that anyone who had one should throw it in the trash. *sigh* Honestwitness | ||
| Schasc Registered user Username: Schasc Post Number: 77 Registered: 10-2004 |
Is there a good book that anyone can recommend talking about Antiochus Epiphanes? A friend of mine said that the little horn could not be him since all the world did not wonder after him like they do in the prophesy that says it is the pope. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1438 Registered: 9-2006  |
Larry, Is very sad that you finally got the answer "the truth does not matter. I am afraid the only thing that matters with many is the religion, the clan and nothing comes before that. But Larry, if God can make this old drunk sober up and go to church he can make her come out of a church. At times like these is the very core of our faith tested by fire. In the one place in the Bible the woman said " Lord if you had been here my brother would not have died", We need to have faith that we will see the glory of God. I have said a prayer for her in my heart and for you that your faith will be lifted up. River | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 579 Registered: 7-2000 |
Well, HonestWitness, the NIV is a lousy, unreliable translation. Follow this link, take the NIV challenge and see what you get: http://www.biblebelievers.com/NIV_Challenge.html And then go get an accurate translation such as the NASB, KJV or NKJV. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1439 Registered: 9-2006 |
Wow Lone, I took enough of the test to get the idea, that is some serious stuff there, I'm glad you pointed this out. I would agree, its a lousy translation, I don't own a hard copy of the NIV, I use the NKJV as a hard copy. I have several diffrent translations on hard disk,but that one was not offered with the program I use, maybe that was the reason. River P.S. I have a chart of accuracy somewhere in my theology notes, I will try to find it and see where the NIV rates. Interestingly the NKJV rates more accurate than the KJV and that is what I used when I went to the Bible store to obtain a new Bible. The NKJV pretty much matches up to the rest of my translations. I have the NKJV, KJV,RSV,AMKJV, Darby, Youngs literal translation and Zondervan amplified Bible. Thanks for the info Loneviking. Looks as if I didn't lose anything by not having an NIV. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 580 Registered: 7-2000 |
Hey River, one of the best and most accurate translation is the NASB. The NASB that is published by the Lockman Foundation has the best set of cross references of any Bible I've ever found, including the chain reference Bibles. Another new translation, that seems (so far) to be very accurate is the 'Net' Bible. You can read and look up texts online or actually order a copy of the Bible. Here's a link, the page I've linked here tells about the Net Bible and there is a menu on the left that can get you to where you can read it online. http://www.bible.org/category.php?scid=3&category_id=46&parent_id=0 As that survey shows, it can be VERY important what translation you use, despite what some folks think. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 581 Registered: 7-2000 |
Well, River, I guess I wrote too soon! I decided to run the Net Bible through the NIV challenge and the Net Bible failed as miserably as the NIV. What really shocked me was what most of the translations have omitted from Rev. 1:11 'I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last'--a lot of translations just don't have this anymore. One good thing about the link at bible.org is that you can click on the number of the verse and several translations come up including the KJV. Also, the Greek comes up with Strongs numbering attached to the words. So, it's a good site for studying and comparing. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6770 Registered: 12-2003 |
Loneviking, using that test at your link above, the NASB also fails. While it includes the missing verses in brackets, the NIV also includes the missing verses in footnotes. The verses with "missing" information, for example the first name of Pilate and the words of the prophet in Matthew 27:35—those are completely left out of the NASB as well. At the bottom of the text it says we can take the test with complete accuracy by using the Authorized KJV. The reason those details are omitted from the main text of more modern translations including NIV, NASB, NET Bible, etc., is that they are based on older, more accurate manuscripts than the KJV was based on. Those passages were included in the manuscripts from which the KJV was translated, but more recent findings have suggested that those passages might have been scribal additions over the years since the older MSS don't have them. The primary limitation of the NIV is that it is a "thought translation" instead of "word for word". It is considered one of the most accurate modern translations, but for word for word accuracy, NASB and ESV are better. I have also heard that the NET Bible is good. Our pastor, who is very particular about his translations and can actually compare them to Greek and Hebrew editions, gave his wife a NET Bible for her birthday. Oh, one comment about "Alpha and Omega"—neither the NIV nor the NASB includes that declaration in Revelation 1:1. Both, however, say this in Revelation 1:8: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." It is worded the same in both NASB and NIV. Colleen | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 141 Registered: 8-2005 |
Schasc: Is there a good book that anyone can recommend talking about Antiochus Epiphanes? A friend of mine said that the little horn could not be him since all the world did not wonder after him like they do in the prophesy that says it is the pope. Brian3: I think they are mixing texts. Revelation 13:3 is not about Antiochus I don't believe. Of course, I don't believe it's about the Pope either! :-) (KJVA) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. (NASB) I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; This book is interesting: http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1921_mauro_seventy-weeks/mauro_seventyweeks.pdf while not exactly about the 2300 days he does touch on it starting in chapter 8 | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 582 Registered: 7-2000 |
I wouldn't say 'older and more accurate' Colleen. You're referring to just two manuscripts, the Textus Vaticanus (found unused for decadeds in a vault) and the Textus Sinaiaticus (found in a trash can). Do some research on how writers copied the scrolls. The scrolls with errors in them were destroyed and not used. The scrolls had to be copied often as they easily wore out. So, you wind up with a 'young' body of manuscripts that agree with each other---except for these two, oddball manuscripts. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1442 Registered: 9-2006 |
As I understand it, there are errors in the kjv, however none of them effect doctrine, they are single letter errors introduced through copy which to my mind does not effect accuracy, it is an accepted version and has been for many, many years. But then that is my poor understanding of the way things are,which will surely exclude this old boy from the battle of the Bibles, I still do my basic research using the kjv and my reading of hard copy from the nkjv, both read pretty much alike, the nkjv is easier to read. Some things of interest I might use several translations on, but it is not a matter of course. I would probably find it counter productive to thinking in depth and prayerfully reading and studying on things of importance to end up with several translations cross checking every word I read. Coupled with prayerful reading and good common sense and logic and a hunger for wisdom from God I think I do fairly well. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1443 Registered: 9-2006 |
I have the net Bible Lone, the thing that makes it hard for me is just the way it is laid out which has to do with my eye sight now, getting a bit long in the tooth things just sorta start gettin unwieldy on a fellow. effen it wasn't fer my store bought choppers I'da had soup tonight instead a bbq'ed ribeye with corn and a tater baked in 6 min. in that newfangled gadget. River | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 583 Registered: 7-2000 |
River, you're right about 'single letter' errors. Cambridge publishing, for some reason, changed all but one or two of the capitol 'S' that refers to the Holy Spirit, making it 'the spirit' instead of 'the Spirit'. What's the verse in Revelation, that talks about the folks who add to or take away from this book? The things that are in that quiz were in the Greek manuscripts. So on what authority were they removed/altered or changed? I guess I've been thinking about this quite a bit over the last few weeks. Earlier this year a friend gave me a set of books titled 'The Expositor's Bible'. I then got involved with a Bible study that goes quite in-depth into the word. I pulled out the Expositor's Bible to see what insights there might be. This set is written by conservative, evangelical scholars from the mid 1800's to early 1900's. The writing is of a much higher quality, much more indepth than so much of what is written today. These scholars were working primarily from the KJV, while much of the stuff today is written by folks using NASB or NEV, maybe NIV. Are these other translations 'dumbing down' both the Word and the church? The twenty somethings in the study group that grew up reading The Message Bible, the NIV etc, they just can't follow the old, expositional writings. It's not a language problem, they just can't understand and follow an argument that develops over a page or two. So, studying with some of these youngsters is a bit of a challenge! You have to keep things really simple and develop the study sloooowly or they get lost. I wonder if things would have been different if they had grown up using the KJV? Enough rambling, River it sounds like your dinner was pretty good tonight. Mine was Carl's Junior after high school open house! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1446 Registered: 9-2006 |
I have been chewing on something of late, in the KJV and also NKJV, the Holy Spirit is always spelled with a capital S, and this brings distinction between God’s Spirit, mans spirit and some other spirit, such as demonic spirits. It’s funny you should mention that Cambridge Publishing changing all the letters from (S)pirit to (s)pirit accept one. What I have been chewing on of late is the difference between mans spirit and God’s Spirit as it pertains to the spirit of the Christian, the born again believer. The born again believer has been rejuvenated, born again into a new spirit by the Spirit of God, brought into right standing with God by his own Spirit through the redemptive work of Jesus. Has then my Spirit become Gods Spirit? Should we then spell our spirits differently as with a capital S also? Haven’t we been joined together as one in the body of Christ never to see the second death? Does this remove our individuality, our unique place as an individual? No, I don’t believe it does, like the leaves on a tree we are all different and yet still a very vital part of the tree, the Holy Spirit is still the Holy Spirit and our spirits are still our spirits joined together in a unique thing called the body of Christ and yet still a unique individual creation. It just seems that God has ways of doing things past finding out, now a person might ask “Well, if it’s past finding out, why worry with it?” and I guess I just have to put that down to the individual nature given to me, the inner driving need to know how things work in the physical world as well as the spiritual world and the Lord has never complained about my insatiable quest for knowledge as yet. I am sure he is amused at my fumbling struggles with questions past my finding out in my present state, just as it amuses me at the child who is busy exploring the world around him. Just as the child would look with wide eyed wonder at the world around him, I suppose I look with wide eyed wonder at the things of the spiritual world and the need to explore that world is inherent within me, to know the depths and the heights of God’s creation and his interaction within that creation although I know that I cannot fully know. I really don’t believe that God plays hide and seek with us as pertaining to his knowledge no more that I would withhold from a four year old the knowledge of how a laser operates, or how a signal is set up on a simple piece of wire so that we can be heard thousands of miles away, there is just no use trying to explain it to him simply because I know he does not, at present, possess the ability to grasp these principles. Does God have the ability to make us know the full depth and heights of the spiritual world? I have to say in all probability he does, him being God, but if he did that, that would change the uniqueness of the individual and we would no longer be who we are, a unique individual with our own unique place in the body of Christ, as Paul spoke of it “If not for the ear, where would be the hearing?” and so we “see as through a glass darkly”. I think it may be better if Cambridge had left the spelling alone Loneviking, there are reasons for the passage in Revelations 22:18-19 that are past my finding out and I think it behooves us to explore the word of God and not change it to suit our puny understanding and thus be able to grow into the riches of his Word (with a capital W) and his Spirit (with a capital S).  River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6778 Registered: 12-2003 |
Interesting thoughts, River. I agree; our spirits remain our spirits even though made alive by the Spirit. But how that works...I don't know! Praise God He gives us life! Colleen |
