| Author |
Message |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2133
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 5:36 pm: |     |
I think I understand exactly what you're talking about, Gilbert. As I've said before, sometimes you have to take EGW's statements "out of context," in order to see what they are actually saying, since she tries to confuse people about what she is actually saying. A common example of this is her infamous statement that "The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty,"--the SDAs say that we've taken it "out of context," when in reality the context is only there to take away from the force of the heretical statement so that people will go along with believing it! (No context can make that statement ok!)
What she does is very...diabolical.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on September 10, 2007) |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2134
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 5:43 pm: | |
BTW, Gilbert, I think you meant to link to this post, in your last post, right? http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/11/6115.html#POST81601
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6752
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 6:29 pm: | |
Phil, your point is well-taken. Mary and Gilbert both demonstrated, though, that when one looks closely at Ellen's statements, there's actually confusion and error at their core. As JEremy said above, they're diabloical in their smooth presentation that obscures the heresy she is ACTUALLY saying.
Case in point: We have received more email in response to our son Nathanael Tinker's short blurb on "To Believe or Not" in the last issue of Proclamation than in response to any other one article in that issue. He pointed out that Ellen saw human life on Saturn or Jupiter, and we used two footnotes to validate that quote: one from Early Writings where she saw Enoch on some planet with seven moons, and another where her husband James confirmed that, by the testimony of Jospeh Bates whose knowledge of astronomy they trusted, Ellen actually saw Enoch on either Jupiter or Saturn.
I learned in school that the whole event of Ellen's vision and Joseph Bates' identification of her visionary planet at Jupiter/Saturn confirmed her inspiration to Bates. Further, this episode was used to confirm to US that she was a true prophet of God.
Now, when Nathanael uses this event "out of context" and states that she saw human life on Jupiter/Saturn, the mail comes in: "She NEVER said that! Just go look it up; she NEVER identified the planet!" They go on, "There are uncounted planets in the universe; that vision could have been about any one of them. SHE never named the planet."
Well OK. We footnoted this claim, we used a well-known in-house "proof" of her inspiration, yet when we state it objectively, the way they themselves set us up to understand it, they cry "Fou!"
So I do see that in fact we have to dissect Ellen's comments because if we read them in context without scrutinizing the meanings and without comparing them to the rest of her "work", we can sometimes miss what she's really saying. I'm not advocating using her out-of-context because we have to be able to see what she's really saying In Context in order to fully grasp the subtle nature of her heresy. But this sort of close scrutiny is necessary.
By contrast, I have found that close scrutiny of Scripture, breaking it down phrase by phrase and even word for word as I memorize verses, has the opposite effect of scrutinizing Ellen. Scripture reveals great internal consistency. The phrases and words are significant and tie together across not only chapters and books but even authors. Ellen breaks down with scrutiny; the Bible becomes even more cohesive.
It's an amazing contrast.
Colleen |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 766
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 7:37 pm: | |
Coleen, you stated it so well. I can study God's Word over and over and each of the little pieces fit together with greater and greater intricacy. No matter how far we drill down into something God created, it is always consistent and full of beauty.
Ellen White's "inspiration", on the other hand, reminds me of people I met in my drug days as a youth, who would say something that didn't even make sense, and then impress themselves with it.
Here is an example from the original handwritten manuscript that was used to produce Selected Messages, book 1. I won't even begin to speculate about what kind of "influence" she was under at the time.
quote:"Human minds vary the minds of different education and thought receive different impressions of the same words and it is difficult for one mind to to give to a different temperament education and habits of thought by language exactly the same idea as that which his clear and distinct in his own mind.
Could these words really be inspired? Is this how God speaks?
You can see the actual photocopy and text of this manuscript page in the book, White Washed, by Sidney Cleveland, page 142
Gilbert Jorgensen
It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 19 Days since October 22, 1844 |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 4296
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 8:18 pm: | |
That statement looks like some of the statements learning disabled students have written. One wonders!!!
Aren't each of us glad we are no longer mixed up in that???
Our awesome God took us out and will not let go of us.
Diana |
Javagirl
Registered user
Username: Javagirl
Post Number: 424
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 6:26 am: | |
Jim,
I understand the idea of what you are saying, I think. I have been asking God to help me be more gracious and gentle, in all my conversation online or otherwise.
Quote: "I am not in disagreement regarding FAF's positions on EGW."
FAF as I understand it, does not have a POSITION on EGW. FAF is not a religion. One does not have to agree to a certain number of "fundamental beliefs" in order to post here. In fact, we often see more disagreement than agreement on many subjects. I personally welcome that! If and when FAF does have an official POSITION on EGW, I will leave.
I have been thinking about this statement:
Quote...
"I understand that harshness was used in the Bible against false teachers. Even Christ spoke as such in certain circumstances.
But I do not think that was the rule. Instead , it is more likely that it was the exception."
Im not able to think of a time when Christ spoke anything OTHER than harshly against false teachers. Anyone think of one?
I know Christ felt compassion for people who were decieved. I know He gave many warnings. However, the only time I can think of Him speaking anything other than harshly toward false teachers, pharisees, teachers of the law etc., was when He was on the cross, and He asked the father to forgive them in a sweeping statement.
Jesus spoke out against error! I dont believe it was because he was "bitter". He loved us so much He did not want us to miss out on the point of His sacrifice, and the great news of the true Gospel of the one and only true God.
I think the forgiveness part would be good for us to focus on, when we think of our enemies and the enemies of the gospel. I do not, however, think that we can ignore the example of Jesus, the apostles, and prophets, in consitently calling out those who would teach a false or different gospel.
In any case, Jim, your statements make me think. Right now I am a bit pumped up about defending the gospel! I am asking God for his guidance and a spirit of humility and love when I do that.
Lori |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 767
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 1:02 pm: | |
Javagirl, I thought a lot about what you said, and I agree completely. Perhaps I can paraphrase what I think you are saying.
As we become more aware of Seventh-day Adventism's continuing deception, and specifically the tremendous emotional grip that it has on those still captive to its belief system, we feel compelled to do something. Some will feel more unnerved by the bold-faced lies, than others. We truly grieve for the stranglehold that it has on our dear relatives and friends. I don't believe that any of us are here to be spiteful and mean. That is what makes FAF unique.
This forum has been very much like an Alcoholics Anonymous group. We have been there. We see the terrible damage. Through God's unfathomable love, we have been chosen by Him to be His sons and daughters. How do we repay Him? Even if nine other lepers (in Jesus parable) walk away, we have to do something! What we do, depends on how the Spirit impresses each of us.
Using an example in a different sphere, many of us are aware of human rights problems in Darfur. It is called genocide. See http://www.ushmm.org/conscience/
How many of us care enough to do anything about it. The answer, of course, is that we all care, but to varying degrees. Our response depends on how it involves us, what resources we have at our disposal, how we feel as Christians we should respond, and the degree of hope we have for change.
For those who have come face-to-face with this terrible tragedy (which I have not), the emotional shock must be beyond description. Certainly pictures do not do justice to what is happening. We wonder how humans can treat other humans this way. But we are removed from the situation, and so we can turn off our emotions, and focus on something more pleasant.
We, here at FAF, are all dealing with a different emotional catastrophe. That perpetrated by the Seventh-day Adventist Church for the last 150 years, and the legacy of Ellen White’s hysteria (http://www.ellenwhite.org/refute4.htm and http://www.ellenwhite.org/health.htm). While Ellen White died almost 100 years ago, the White Estate perpetuates an innocent persona of Ellen White, and tries to explain away her aberrant behavior (since they can no longer hide it).
There is overwhelming evidence that they know exactly what they are doing -- and have for years. The 1919 Bible conference minutes, and the White Estate's mythical 2000 visions, are but just two of thousands upon thousands of examples. For documentation see http://dlearn.wwc.edu/classes/relh457/articles/bc1919/bc1919.html and http://truthorfables.com/EGW_2000Vision_Fables.htm
Each of us here have our own "Darfur"s. Some of us are going to be more vocal than others. All of us are going to look to the Holy Spirit for guidance. At the same time we will feel like we must do something. We will each respond in our own ways. For many of us we view it as a war for the very soul of our loved ones. We must do more to stop the spiritual and emotional assault. The devil is working harder than ever to enslave our loved ones. We have no choice but to be more aggressive ourselves.
And when those dear friends of ours come here to learn more, what will they find? Our evidence must be plain, simple, obvious, and convincing. We can not mask Ellen White's deception for fear of offending someone. If the reader is looking for us to give her a "white glove" treatment then they need to visit the White Estate. The Holy Spirit has not led them here in the first place. They have come here to get answers. Will we have the evidence that they are looking for? Will we be a guide by their side, as they try to make their way out of the grip of Seventh-day Adventism? Satan is in a battle for their very soul, and the Lord is calling on us to help lead them out. Will they be able to find the answers they were led here for?
Gilbert Jorgensen
It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 20 Days since October 22, 1844 |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 685
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 1:17 pm: | |
Amen, Gilbert! |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 218
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 1:27 pm: | |
Gilbert you wrote:
Jim, I think I certainly understand and agree with what you are saying. You feel, like I do, and Diana, and others do, that there is a need to move past Ellen White and focus on the good things ahead of us. There is also the possibility of coming down so hard on Ellen White that we destroy our witness. Have I done a good job of repeating back what I think you are saying?
Jim replies: Yes, you got it! 
To Lori: FAF positions; I stand corrected.
You wrote:
"If and when FAF does have an official POSITION on EGW, I will leave."
Why? Not sure what you mean.
Would you rather remain in tension/suspension on positions, or would you prefer to migrate toward a settled view ?
Regarding Jesus's methods.
It is written of Him, A bruised reed He will not break , a smouldering wick He will not snuff out.
I understand there were varying methods used, "In season". My point is that , unless we are certain who the hearers are, that the contexts are clearly established and that the person doing the expounding is well grounded. More harm than good may result in harshly presented "truth telling".
"That Still Small Voice" , is just as valid as harsh rebukes. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6757
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 1:44 pm: | |
The hearers of this forum are questioning and transitioning Adventists, former Adventists, and those who live with/interact with Adventists. This is the audience for whom this forum is intended. While many others are welcome to lurk, it is not designed for them primarily. We have to be free to talk among ourselves without worrying about how Adventists will feel. I completely relate to how Adventists may feel when reading this site. I remember how I would have felt.
It is the truth about Ellen coupled with the truth about the gospel that Adventists need to know. Often they don't want to fully "know"--but they still read the information, and it simmers on the back burner, sometimes for years, while the conscious cognitive dissonance grows louder and less manageable.
The truth is the road to freedom. We must treat each other with respect and kindness, but Ellen is actually dead. Our identifying her "false prophet status" and her aberrant statements and claims is not an affront to a living person with whom God is dealing. Rather, she has exerted a massive and overpowering influence on millions and millions of people. She needs to be exposed.
Again, Adventists are not Adventism and certainly not Ellen herself. I have great concern for those who are caught in bondage to deception and dishonesty. I do not,however, hold respect for Ellen now that I understand she was clearly a false prophet. People need to know how serious the situation is. Using strictly biblical standards, her "ministry" is condemned. We cannot give her legacy a pass. People need to be set free! Adventists who still hold her in some sort of regard need to know that they have been beguiled by a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Their eternal security is actually at stake!
Colleen |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 768
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 2:11 pm: | |
quote:The truth is the road to freedom.
Wow! So simple, and yet so profound. That really takes some time to fully sink in.
Colleen, you truly come up with some gems!
Gilbert Jorgensen
It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 20 Days since October 22, 1844 |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2136
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 2:12 pm: | |
And let's also not forget, that Jesus' harsh words to and about false teachers, were spoken in the presence of and to the followers of those false teachers. Also, Elijah's taunting of the false prophets and false gods, occurred in front of their followers. And in the quote I posted above from Acts 13, Paul "disrespected" the false prophet in front of the proconsul that the false prophet was trying to influence. And this did not harm Paul's witness to the proconsul--in fact, Paul proved that the false prophet was false (by a miracle), and the proconsul then believed in Jesus and was saved!
Jeremy |
Reb
Registered user
Username: Reb
Post Number: 686
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 2:34 pm: | |
I am convinced that Adventism is a spiritual poison. |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 534
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 2:56 pm: | |
An insidious poison...
A pernicious weed...
Wholly unfit for faith...
(Those of us teethed on the red books will immediately recognize the play on words). |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 815
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 7:25 pm: | |
Colleen said,
quote:it simmers on the back burner, sometimes for years, while the conscious cognitive dissonance grows louder and less manageable.
That sounds like part of what happened with me. Several years before leaving SDAism, I was starting to question some things and looked around on the internet. I have no idea which websites I looked at, but I remember being shocked at how negative a website was about EGW. At the time, I thought there is no way the people behind this website are true Christians or they wouldn't be so mean, angry, and bitter. And I didn't look at the "anti-SDA" websites anymore for several years.
About that same time I read the recently-published paperback volumes the SDA church had put out explaining EGW's life (can't remember the name of them and we no longer have them). I read them to build up my faith in her prophetic gift, but they provided no answers and seemed very lame.
Once God had prepared my heart for accepting the facts, He removed the veil. After that point, the same information no longer looked mean, angry and bitter--just facts I hadn't wanted to see before. |
Javagirl
Registered user
Username: Javagirl
Post Number: 425
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 7:25 pm: | |
I stated:
"If and when FAF does have an official POSITION on EGW, I will leave."
I should have said when FAFF (Former adventist fellowship FORUM has an official position I will leave. (meaning the members of the forum as a group)
I respect the right of the owners, moderators, and posters on the forum to state their opinion, in fact I appreciate it. I appreciate the ability to respectfully and lovingly disagree or even challenge. I have had to eat crow on a number of occasions when I later changed my mind on a doctrine or opinion.
I dont want to participate in any community which tells me absolutes about what I must believe, obey, read, listen to, attend, or more importantly what books, lectures, preachers, churches, I must AVOID.
Been there, done that, and Once bitten, twice shy!
People do often try to state their opinions as FACTS here, but I am not REQUIRED to agree.
I lived with censure long enough in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I trust God to continue the work he begun in me. I value other peoples opinions. I dont rely on them. Thats what I meant!
It is good to be be free in Jesus.
Lori |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 770
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2007 - 9:43 pm: | |
Raven,
You made what I consider to be a very important statement
quote:I remember being shocked at how negative a website was about EGW. At the time, I thought there is no way the people behind this website are true Christians or they wouldn't be so mean, angry, and bitter. And I didn't look at the "anti-SDA" websites anymore for several years.
Herein lies the dilema. How do we expose Ellen White for what she really is? How do we expose the Seventh-day Adventist Church (since it behaves as an extension of Ellen White) for what it is? How do we tell the patient they have cancer without them going into an automatic state of denial.
I remember well when my wife was told October 11, 2002, that she had Multiple Myeloma (bone marrow) cancer, and that she had 1-4 years to live. The human emotions simply can't deal with that. It is not that the information is not valid. The tests showed that it was, but emotionally we just could not deal with it.
I felt like we had to find out as quickly as we could what our options were. My wife was in such a state of shock that she couldn't. As her caregiver, it is a situation that only those who are in it can truly appreciate. It is very hard on the patient, and it is very hard on the caregiver. It is very hard on the family.
Everyone volunteers "information" and very quickly we are totally overwhelmed. In addition, there is a lot of research that has to be done (probably by the care giver!) in a very compressed amount of time.
The good news is that enough new medical advances are out that she is doing extremely well since her recent chemo/stem cell transplant, and the success with similar cases "suggest" that it very well may be able to be treated as a chronic disease rather than a terminal one. Each kind of cancer is different. We are just so fortunate to have excellent insurance, and excellent medical facilities. Once again, Ellen White's publication, "The Use of Drugs in the Care of the Sick"(?) is so far off base that she would have been dead about 1-1/2 years ago if we had been following it faithfully. It would have, without a doubt, killed her.
I want you to stop and think about that for a minute. How deadly is Ellen White's advice? It would have, without a doubt, killed her.
Looking at the situation that you described above, do you see any way that it could have been "packaged" so that it would have been more favorably received? I think probably not. It seems to me that the information, as in my wife's case, is of such a nature, that it is almost to shocking to comprehend, and going into denial is a mechanism that the mind uses to try to maintain its sanity.
I read posts of people, such as Geoff on CARM. I truly feel sorry for her. I can related totally. The same with so may of my good Seventh-day Adventist friends. The truth is to painful. It is easier to "retreat for cover" and come back another day. You can sense in their answers that they are not confident in them. They are repeating the best that they know, hope upon hope, that it will stand up to the test. It is not hard to tel the difference between an answer that is full of confidence, and one that is just "a finger in the dike".
I look at the answers she gives. I look at the answers that many spouses give to those who post here. We know in our hearts that they don't really fully believe what they are saying. They have no other defense, and so they are repeating the best defense that they know of hoping that it will "patch the hole" for the time being and stop the emotional shock. They can't deal with it. When people argue with me about subjects we discuss here, I recognize that i most cases they are really not attacking me, or the information I am sharing, even though it may seem that way. They are providing an automatic response -- the only one they know. They are a victim of Seventh-day Adventism's cultic doctrine, just as much as we used to be. This time we are the messenger. perhaps next time they will be. It is because we love them dearly that we can't just leave them to perish. Christ died for them. Removing alcohol from a drunk, is going to be a painful process for the addict. But if we truly love them we know that soft-peddling the dangers is not what we are going to do if we truly love them.
So Raven, would you suggest that the message have been presented any different in your case?
Gilbert |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 773
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 11:12 am: | |
I think if we truly are disciples of Jesus, I believe we will reflect that in our conversations with others who are seeking truth. God will show us who is seeking, and who is really not interested. Here is an example of how I replied to a question on another forum:
http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?p=1830252#post1830252
Gilbert Jorgensen
It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 21 Days since October 22, 1844 |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 219
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 11:29 am: | |
I cannot express a single thought without a skewed tangent.
Frustrating.................. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6769
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 11:59 am: | |
Jim, don't feel bad. Actually, I believe I understand you--and we are all here at differing stages of processing. There is absolutely no way we will be able to "agree" on the way we see these things because so much of "agreement" actually has to do with working through the stages of grief.
In all honesty, that's what we do when we leave Adventism. We grieve deeply. We lose ourselves. We feel disoriented, rudderless, cut loose and adrift—desperate.
Gilbert, your story of your wife's reaction to her diagnosis is actually very insightful. There is a great parallel to what we experience as we begin to sense something wrong with Adventism. By the time your wife went to the doctor, she had likely already had some puzzling symptoms. That is the parallel situation of those who begin looking at "the websites".
The shock is incredible, and it's almost impossible to take it in. Our natural defneses protect us from dying with exposure. The more seriously we take our own niggling "symptoms" and questions, however, the more quickly we will be able to absorb what we discover.
I remember Freeindeed on this forum saying once that when he first found this forum, he was highly offended and didn't return for quite some time. What he read, however, stayed in his mind, and he began to allow himself to face his own questions. He stated that we mustn't stop speaking the truth because even before Adventists are ready to process it, it's important for them to "hear" it.
Jim, you're among a community here of people who have been, will be, or are now where you are. Your disorientation and frustration is something we understand. The sense of losing what you value is an acute reality. Stick with us—we'll keep praying for you and talking with you, and you and we will keep growing and deepening. We're in this process together—all of us.
Colleen |
Philharris
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Username: Philharris
Post Number: 176
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 5:07 pm: | |
Gilbert,
Thanks for sharing your story on Post #770. On some of our earlier posts, we seemed to be on different tangents and the Lord impressed me with the need to understand you better. At times like this, I wish we could sit down in the same room and simply get acquainted. This morning just before I turned on the computer, I prayed for you and the need, on my part, to understand why you seemed so focused on debunking EGW. Then, I read your post and trembled because it is not often that I receive such an immediate response from the Lord.
Now that I understand where you are coming from, my only response is to say; keep it up, what you are exposing concern her needs to be made public. We need to never forget how dangerous and false her teachings are.
What also humbles me is to learn that we are in similar situations. My wife of forty-one years has several chronic illnesses and I am her caregiver. On top of working full time so I can keep our medical coverage up to date, I do most of the household chores. In the past six months she has had two surgeries. Just yesterday, I had to take time out from work and get her to the medical clinic because she had taken a bad fall. She is doing fine but all of this involves a lot of stress.
Your friend,
Phil |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1444
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 5:32 pm: | |
Phil you are a true blue Christian brother!
Gilbert, the way you explained all that was so very clear. I say keep on keepin on.
River |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 816
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 6:43 pm: | |
Gilbert, No I wasn't suggesting at all that things be packaged differently. There are many ways information can be presented, and any or all of it can be beneficial. I was just reflecting how different the same information looks now compared to then. I do believe seeing the information, regardless of my reaction to it, was a step in the process. And I believe that God used that as well as continued working in other ways. Even if a person is angry about the info they come across and refuses to look at it for a very long time or ever, God still uses it and/or other ways. During that time of refusing to look at it, the questions never went away and only intensified until I was ready to handle it.
When I first received the Cultic Doctrine book, my husband Ric_b was afraid for me to read it based on my earlier reaction to anti-EGW stuff. He was pretty sure I would have one of two reactions: dig in deeper to SDAism or throw Christianity away completely. Instead, I was ready and it only confirmed everything God had already been working on in my understanding.
I actually do like your "Exposing Adventism" threads. Seeing so many "prophet problems" in one spot make me wonder how I ever could have stayed in it so long. |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 774
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 10:36 pm: | |
Raven, thank you for your valuable feedback. It's really neat to see how God led you and Rick.
Gilbert Jorgensen
It has been 162 Years, 10 Months, and 21 Days since October 22, 1844 |
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