| Author |
Message |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1591
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 7:37 am: |     |
Oh Grace, I just caught your message on what has been attached to the e-mails.
Thank you for that, I think the attention he got was because he mentioned Seventh Day Adventist in his sermon.
Well maybe his message of rest got through to some of them.
Here's to resting in Jesus.
River |
Snowboardingmom
Registered user
Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 361
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 9:23 am: | |
Honestwitness,
Actually, back when I got this email, I was home helping to take care of my mom with her surgery. I hadn't had time to hear the message yet (and still haven't, although I keep meaning to), but I wanted to respond back to that "speaking against" comment. I was a little hesitant without hearing the sermon first, but I decided to take a chance anyway. This is what I wrote back:
Thanks for the link. I haven't had a chance to listen to the link yet, but I will! It sounds interesting. I'm not a huge fan of TD Jakes, but I'm curious as to the "speaking against". Just from a hunch, without listening to it yet, I gather he's not so much speaking "against" as must as talking about the full and complete rest in Jesus (which to me is the essence of the Sabbath under the new covenant). It is no longer about a 24 hour period as a day (which was just a shadow of the real thing--Jesus Christ), but true rest is only by abiding in Jesus. And by focusing on a specific day, we are in danger of not fully submitting to Jesus Christ as our true and only rest.
But I will definitely listen to it once things settle down here a little, and get back with you on my thoughts about it. I'm very interested.
This is part of what I got back:
Your paragraph, without even having heard T.D. Jakes, was pretty much what he said  .
I think it was significant that my friend saw the "consistency" in our idea of true "Sabbath Rest". Actually this email has opened up a dialogue over this issue that had once been closed...so I'm praising God! Like Jeremy and River commented, I wonder how many Adventists are being impacted by this? God can use all things and all people to draw them to Himself...
Grace |
Snowboardingmom
Registered user
Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 362
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 9:30 am: | |
By the way, this thread got started AFTER this whole email dialogue started...so I was thankful and relieved to read what you all thought about the TD Jakes sermon since I still hadn't had a chance to listen to it. (Thank you for starting it Mrzkingdom!) Our discussion (between my friend and I) is no longer about the sermon specifically now though (it's just about the Sabbath and other Adventist things), but still...it was good to hear all of your input!
I'm actually going to listen to it now, just so I'm educated...
Grace
(Message edited by snowboardingmom on October 08, 2007) |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2198
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 12:31 pm: | |
Ramone, you wrote:
quote:Jeremy, the first quote you called "disturbing" is not. It is a simple statement of the Incarnation.
Do you care to address the heresies in the rest of the paragraph that I quoted?
Regarding the first quote: In that section of the article, he was describing the "distinctives" between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In the first quote, the clear implication is that the Son did NOT create the virgin. Is that just "a simple statement of the Incarnation"? This is what Oneness teaches--that the Son is not eternal and did not exist before being conceived in Nazareth.
It is anti-Christ heresy (see 1 John 4:1-3 and 2 John 1:7). I will call it what it is. I will condemn non-Adventist anti-Trinitarianism and I will condemn Adventism's anti-Trinitarianism. It needs to be condemned, no matter what group teaches it. Ironically, there are those who would see nothing wrong with the statement in my previous post ["And we most certainly should not be 'silent' on these teachings just so we are not 'divisive' to those who would dare to pervert Christianity itself and deny these doctrines and still call themselves 'Christians.'"]--as long as we DON'T include Adventism. In other words, there are those who think it's ok to speak out against the anti-Trinitarianism of T.D. Jakes and others, but if we speak the clear truth about the anti-Trinitarianism of Adventism, we are viciously attacked for it. It's a strange double standard. This despite the fact, like I said in my last post, that Adventism is more forthright in their denial of the orthodox Trinity than Jakes is (that's what I meant when I said that Jakes is "even more deceptive in trying to make people think he believes in the Trinity than the SDAs are"). One of the SDAs' professors at the Andrews seminary even admits that the SDA teaching is "not the same doctrine" (a direct quote) as the orthodox Christian doctrine of the Trinity.
The bottom line is that both Jakes and Adventism use the term "Trinity," but they are both using the term deceptively, since they actually deny the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on October 08, 2007) |
Laurie
Registered user
Username: Laurie
Post Number: 133
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 1:24 pm: | |
Honestwitness:
I admire your faithfullness. Being married to someone of a different faith is not easy. My situation is kinda reversed from yours. I was raised SDA, husband was raised catholic. He was not a practicing catholic when we met or married. I converted him to adventism. I cringe to even type that, but I did. He was baptized and joined the SDA church about 5 years after we were married. Now about 2 years ago, after 20 years of marriage, he was the first to want to officially leave adventism. He told me what he had discovered about the sabbath and I told him I didn't even want to discuss it. Period! He continued to attend the SDA church with me and held many positions in the church. He gently and persistently tried to get me to open my mind. It really didn't take very long, we were both out about 6 months later.
So, I do understand your choice of attending the SDA church with your husband. If my husband had come to me and said he was leaving the SDA church and that was that, I am certain he would be attending another church and I would still be trapped in adventism. His gentle, respectful approach allowed me to open my eyes, mind and heart.
Laurie |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6949
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 3:46 pm: | |
Cult experts say that the identity of the Trinity is so fundamental to the way we understand everything else that the concept of "oneness"—or modalism—which says that God is One Being with different manifestations (as opposed to three persons) is enough for an organization to be called a cult. The identity of the Trinity is so central and far-reaching in its implications that this aberration is enough for the Oneness Pentecostals to be considered a cult.
I did listen to TD Jakes' sermon, and he did preach an excellent sermon showing the obsolesence of Sabbath-keeping. It was actually very good. God can use even this. If Adventists are upset about Jakes' sermon—God is in their cognitive dissonance. (I believe cognitive dissonance is God's tool!)
But Jeremy is right in his warning against "oneness". Not understanding the fact that God is One Being in three persons (not three gods [or three "parts" of god] nor one god with different manifestations) means people will not understand who Jesus really is, nor His power, nor the magnitude of His and the Father's sacrifice, nor our eternal connection to God, nor Jesus' eternal identification with humanity, etc.
Colleen
(Message edited by Colleentinker on October 08, 2007) |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 341
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 3:48 pm: | |
Laurie, I'd really be interested to learn more about your husband's gentle but persistent tactics to get you to open your mind, even after you told him you didn't want to discuss it.
My husband is so averse to discussing anything with me that challenges his cherished doctrines! Every time we try, we end up very tense around each other for weeks. It's probably my fault. I'm sure my approach must be wrong. But I'm willing to learn to do it better.
Can you elaborate on what your husband said to you and how he said it that opened your mind?
Honestwitness |
Laurie
Registered user
Username: Laurie
Post Number: 136
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 5:56 pm: | |
Honestwitness,
I'd be happy to try to elaborate. I have to tell you a little about myself first. I was never a good adventist. Never believed in EGW, never believed the IJ, ate meat, wore jewelry, listened to all kinds of music including rock, married a non-adventist, went to public school( after the 10th grade), sent my daughter to public school, etc etc. But, on the sabbath I was completely firm. No question ever in my mind. It was right, it was God's command, no question in my mind. I was very closed minded on that issue. This put me in conflict my entire life. I never felt I was an adventist, I was more like just a sabbath keeper and there were no other churches to go to so I stayed and stayed and stayed. I was actually quite liberal in my definition of sabbath keeping, but the thought of going to church on Sunday was absolutely unthinkable. It was the mark of the beast.
By the time my husband approached me about the sabbath I was quite disenchanted with the SDA church. I had already gone to the pastor and elders with my questions (which were never answered). I had already turned in my first letter asking my membership to be withdrawn. In that first letter I pledged my allegiance to the sabbath and stated I would never forget the sabbath whether I attended a SDA church or any other church. I was so messed up.
So basically I was still in the SDA church for the sabbath. I completely believed it with all my heart.
When my husband would approach me, he never tried to prove my beliefs wrong. Rather, he would just throw something out that he had discovered. He was reading White Washed, Sabbath in Christ, Cultic Doctrines of SDA. Every few days he would share something he had read. I usually just sat and stared at him and said nothing. He never just came up to me and said I was wrong for keeping the sabbath. He little by little shared the old and new covenant with me. That was what really did it for me. Even when I was interested in what he said, I usually just said nothing. Sometimes I would get mad and refuse to discuss it. Many times I would cry. I had incredible conflict.
During this time he started attending some mid week services at a methodist church. It was called praise night. Just singing, praising and praying. I reluctantly agreed to go. I didn't even like the idea of being in a sunday keeping church on any day of the week. But finally I went. I just sat there, speechless. The music was so beautiful, the people truly worshiping God. I went back week after week but would not even consider going on Sunday.
My husband continued to present information he had discovered. Again, never telling me I was wrong, just sharing new information. And all the while attending the SDA church with me.
Finally, I could not take it anymore. I would bust into tears in sabbath school and church all the time. I would have to run out of the service and sit on the steps and cry. It was horrible. I decided I could not go back.
That Sunday my husband said let's go to the Methodist church. I burst into tears and actually screamed "that's the mark of the beast". He said "please, let's go" and I did. I was very very uncomfortable being there on Sunday. I couldn't sing or anything. Just sat there waiting to be struck dead. But I kept going back and we never went back to the SDA church again.
I guess what worked with his approach was that he never attacked my beliefs. It was very hard for me to understand how he could turn his back on what we believed and how we were raising our daughter. She was about 12 at the time. How could I just tell her "hey, we go to church on Sunday now". He just gently shared information with me and backed off when he knew I was getting mad. I can't really explain it...I'm just so thankful it worked.
Laurie
(Message edited by Laurie on October 08, 2007) |
Laurie
Registered user
Username: Laurie
Post Number: 137
Registered: 6-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 6:07 pm: | |
One more thing. He knew my firm belief in the Bible and he would show me texts that I had never seen or understood before. Texts that came right out and said the law was not in existence until Moses, many many things from Paul. I could not argue with scripture. That was a big part of it.
Laurie |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 463
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 3:10 pm: | |
Laurie:
What a moving story...
Thanks for sharing it.
Patria |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6956
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 3:48 pm: | |
I have so much respect for the spouses who have gently but persistently loved their Adventists spouses without forcing a "split". Thank you for your story, Laurie. I know there are several in similar positions on this board.
Colleen |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 342
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 1:45 pm: | |
Yes, Laurie. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I'm pondering it deeply. I pray I can be like your husband, if that is the way the Lord wants to get through to my husband. If not, I pray I'll be patient and perceptive to how He does want me to be.
Honestwitness |
Grasshopper
Registered user
Username: Grasshopper
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 5:37 pm: | |
how do i get td jakes sermon thank you grasshopper |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6965
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 10:08 pm: | |
Grasshopper, you can listen to it by clicking here:
http://www.lightsource.com/ministry/the_potters_house/20070620/
Glad to see you !
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 1608
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 11, 2007 - 3:28 pm: | |
HAAA! I like that name grasshopper!
River |
Grasshopper
Registered user
Username: Grasshopper
Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 12, 2007 - 7:18 pm: | |
thank you colleentinker for t.d.jakes sight his message makes you wonder if he read sabbath in Christ grasshopper |
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