| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1015 Registered: 10-2002  |
Last night I pondered the words in 2 Corinthians 3:16,14 -- "Whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away... only in Christ is it taken away." Yet I've known too many Jesus-loving Adventists and Jesus-loving Christians who still live with the veil partially on... most can't see what 2nd Corinthians 3 says (for example, about the Ten Commandments, or about Moses' sneaky cover-up to hide the fading glory of the Ten/OC). Many still live in partial dependence on the Old Covenant (the Ten Commandments) for life in Christ. But isn't the veil supposed to be gone when we turn to Christ? A) How do we turn to Christ? For "salvation" only and not daily living & moral decisions? B) Do we not know Christ is sufficient for these things? Do we think His Covenant has holes in it? I believe the context of the chapter suggests that the veil of the OC is taken away when we turn to the Lord instead of to the Law! Where the Spirit is, there is freedom. When we turn to the Spirit instead of Law, there is unveiled freedome. And ONLY THEN are we changed truly to become like Him! When we take the nervous risk of looking to Him where we are used to instead looking to Law, then He comes through for us and blows us away with His glory! And we behold Him & see how great He truly is! And then we are changed to become like Him! We are changed seeing that He is everything! When we see that He is everything, and when we let Him be everything... when we turn to Christ in trembling faith that He is sufficient to keep us from falling, when we trust His Spirit to produce His likeness in us instead of our obedience. Just some thoughts. | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 366 Registered: 3-2005 |
Agapetos: Oh, this subject is my favorite one! I could not agree more. Look how Paul, in Galatians 3:2, says the same thing. "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" NASB In context, Paul is saying, "when you believed, you understood that you were justified by the Spirit. How in the world do you think you can be made holy (sanctified) by your flesh, that is the works of the Law?" (my paraphrase) This is THE reason it's not alright to simply stay in Adventism or any legalism, "just in case". It will automatically stunt spiritual growth. And as you pointed out so eloquently, the veil will still be in place, at least to some extent. When I accept Christ, I must surrender the idea that my works have anything to offer God for salvation. He alone made us holy and He alone keeps us holy. He is the perfector of our faith. (Philippians) It is contrary to our sin nature to let go of our works. All legalism is an attempt to save ourselves, whether it is to justify (pronounce us holy) or sanctify (perfect our faith and LOOK more like Christ.) In reality, salvation happens when we can look away from ourselves long enough to look UP at Christ long enough to actually LOOK LIKE HIM for simply a moment in our time. The next moment, will look like my flesh again likely, but I rest in the reality of my position in Christ. I am literally (not metaphorically) seated at the right hand of God. So, practically speaking we still sin. But "we", the real "we" is immortal and awaits the imperishable. We are literally circumcised of the dead flesh that still hangs, like a tent, around our immortality. One of my friends, after coming to this realization, said this and I think it's brilliant: "We no longer keep the Law, the Law keeps us." Patria (Message edited by patriar on September 01, 2007) (Message edited by patriar on September 01, 2007) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2098 Registered: 10-2004  |
Ramone, I've pondered about some of those same things. And what Paul goes on to say in verse 3 of chapter 4 makes it even more difficult: "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing," (2 Corinthians 4:3 NASB.) So does this mean that it is impossible to have the veil if one is saved? Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6703 Registered: 12-2003  |
Patria, I like what you said, "I am literally, not metaphorically, seated at the right hand of God." That's been one of the biggest changes in my leaving Adventism and living in Christ: the facts of what Jesus does in and for and through us are not figurative or metaphorical: they are literal. We are seated at the right hand of God! Interesting ponderings, Ramone and Jeremy. It seemed that this passage never really was clear to me until after the veil came off... Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 374 Registered: 3-2005 |
Ramone: (My apologies to you!! I will not be responding to people's comments on 4 hours of sleep ANY LONGER! I completely missed your point. I did the same thing to Pastor Mark on another thread. I am sincerely sorry.) In Christ, Patria Patria | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1017 Registered: 10-2002 |
No problem Patria! No problem at all!  Jeremy, Is it is impossible to have the veil if one is saved? I don't have a verse or clear explanation, but just life experience and the knowledge that throughout history, many people have been veiled to the knowledge of the New Covenant and Christ's sufficiency, but they have been saved. One suggestion is that perhaps the "veil" of chapter 3 and chapter 4 is not the same thing. Chapter 3 suggests a veil of being under the Old Covenant. Chapter 4, however, suggests a veil caused by being blinded by Satan -- and this can happen to any unbelievers, whether they know of the Law or do not know of the Law. Paul does make a comparison, though, between both veilings, because he says he has renounced secret & shameful ways & deception, implying that Moses used such ways when he covered his face to hide the fading of the glory of the Ten Commandments. Anyway, in short, from chapter 4 we can learn that all unbelievers' minds are veiled, however, it does not necessarily mean the veil of the Old Covenant is covering them because not all unbelievers have been taught or brought up under that veil. Conversely, the veil of Chapter 3 seems to be basically a curse that comes from looking to the Law instead of to Christ and His Spirit which sets us free. Only in Christ is it taken away, and as I suggested above, only when we turn to His glory instead of the glory of the Ten Commandments. Paul doesn't seem to make a statement on whether one is able to have the veil if one is saved or not saved. From life & experience and a lack of direct Scripture addressing it, I would say it's not impossible, but it is best explainable by having degrees of veiling, I suppose (although that sounds terrible, "degrees"). But if we think of physical "blindness", there are degrees of being blind. Some people are completely blind, while others are only partially. Some are simply color blind or need glasses. Interestingly enough, the note that Paul ends on in chapter 3 suggests that all of us still have the effects of spiritual blindness (and won't be completely cured until He comes -- 1 Cor.13), but that as we are in Christ and look to Him and see His glory more and more, we see Him clearer and clearer and not only that, but we ourselves are changed. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1407 Registered: 9-2006  |
Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! Interesting thought Ramone. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1018 Registered: 10-2002 |
River, I think it all connects to what Paul said, "Be transformed by the renewing of your minds." We go from glory to glory, and though we have been made new in our spirits (born again of the Spirit) and are seated above in Christ, yet we still see dimly and need to be renewed by His Spirit. We are constantly growing in Him and "un-learning" and choosing to let go of the ways of "the old man" (the old self) and instead "putting on Christ" and choosing to live in who He says you are. In short, our lives are a process of un-learning darknes and its ways, and of letting go of the darkness. God will be cleaning us out for the rest of our lives. This is why John urges us to "walk in the Light" and be purified from sin. Or as Hebrews says, "Throw off the sin that so easily entangles." Anyway, what Jesus said about our "eye" being evil... I believe He was kind of saying the same thing as when He said, "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." The object of your focus will fill you with its light. If you're focused on darkness, then darkness will fill you. The anti-Christian atheist Nietzsche summarized it well (and perhaps summarized his life), "If you stare too long into the abyss, the abyss will stare back into you." The Christian life is a process of recognizing that Jesus has made you the object of His heart -- He has made you His first love. And seeing this, He becomes our first love. And as we go along in life, we let go of other "loves", other things that would vie to be the object or idols of our hearts. He brings them before us one by one that we may let them go. Anyway, you get the idea. Good night! (It's 9:30pm here in Osaka, and it's Timothy's bathtime...) |
