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Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 640 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 6:11 pm: | |
Can you imagine a Bible "prophet" saying, "My mind was locked, as it were, and I could not comprehend the meaning of the Scriptures we were studying."? I feel like I am reading about Joseph Smith and the "golden plates"! I find it incomprehensible that she had no idea that she was manipulating both "truth" and the people around her. It is interesting how the White Estate uses "circular logic" from her own statements to validate herself.
quote:In the providence of God the several Sabbathkeeping ministers who led out in teaching these new-found truths in company with a number of their followers, came together in 1848 in five Sabbath conferences. Through periods of fasting and prayer they studied the Word of God. Elder Bates, the apostle of the Sabbath truth, took the lead in advocating the binding claims of the Sabbath. Hiram Edson and his associates, who attended some of the conferences, were strong in their presentation of the sanctuary light. James White, a careful student of prophecy, focused his attention on events that must take place before Jesus comes again. At these meetings the leading doctrines held today by Seventh-day Adventists were brought together. Looking back to this experience, Ellen White wrote: "Many of our people do not realise how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid. My husband, Elder Joseph Bates, Father Pierce, [* older brethren among the pioneers are here thus reminiscently referred to. "Father Pierce" was Stephen Pierce, who served in ministerial and administrative work in the early days.] Elder [Hiram] Edson, and others who were keen, noble, and true, were among those who, after the passing of the time in 1844, searched for the truth as for hidden treasure. I met with them, and we studied and prayed earnestly. Often we remained together until late at night, and sometimes through the entire night, praying for light and studying the Word. Again and again these brethren came together to study the Bible, in order that they might know its meaning, and be prepared to teach it with power. When they came to the point in their study where they said, "we can do nothing more,' the Spirit of the Lord would come upon me, I would be taken off in vision, and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given me, with instruction as to how we were to labour and teach effectively. Thus light was given that helped us to understand the Scriptures in regard to Christ, His mission, and His priesthood. A line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God, was made plain to me, and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me. "During this whole time I could not understand the reasoning of the brethren. My mind was locked, as it were, and I could not comprehend the meaning of the Scriptures we were studying. This was one of the greatest sorrows of my life. I was in this condition of mind until all the principal points of our faith were made clear to our minds, in harmony with the Word of God. The brethren knew that when not in vision, I could not understand these matters, and they accepted as light direct from heaven the revelations given."-- Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 206, 207. Thus the doctrinal foundation of the Seventh-day Adventist Church was laid in the faithful study of the Word of God, and when the pioneers could not make headway, Ellen White was given light that helped to explain their difficulty and opened the way for the study to continue. The visions also placed the stamp of God's approval upon correct conclusions. Thus the prophetic gift acted as a corrector of error and a confirmer of truth. (See Gospel Workers, p. 302.)
The above comes from the Historical Prologue of Early Writings - http://www.nisbett.com/reference/ew/ewhistorical.htm Gilbert Jorgensen (Message edited by jorgfe on August 27, 2007) |
Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 4205 Registered: 3-2004
| Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 6:27 pm: | |
I am so glad God took each of us out of that mess and we do not believe it any more. Praise God. He is so awesome. Diana |
Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg
Post Number: 438 Registered: 12-2004
| Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 8:00 pm: | |
Gilbert, I want to tell you how much I have appreciated the work you are, and have been putting into digging up these historical details. Most of this stuff I have never heard before or at most glazed over in years past. Like I have said many times before, to the discerning reader, we don't have to call Ellen White false. or evil, or demonic. Her words and theology speak for themselves, and to anyone willing to be honest in their evaluation, of her work as a whole,its usefulness and relevance diminishes, the more we see of it. To me it becomes painfully obvious that her ministry can be likened to that of the Judiezers spoken of by Paul in Galatians. I especially appreciated the quotes you presented on the evils of singing. Again, its almost too easy. Its like Leno, Letterman, and Stewart talking about George W. There is just to much material for it to even be considered a serious question anymore.(Okay, I am ducking, I hear incoming). Keep up the good work, as I think anybody looking in on this forum, will have to reevaluate their opinions on her gifts(?) given the material presented. Your brother, Randy |
Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 641 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 8:25 pm: | |
Randy, Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate your contributions as well. I agree with you that what she wrote speaks for itself. For example, she had a vinegar addiction that she says almost killed her. It sounds like the type of addiction that comes from the hard cider/whiskey base that they used at that time to make vinegar. I would like to do some research and find out what she wrote while she was "under the influence". I certainly don't know of any Bible prophets that produced their writings under such circumstances. It reminds me of people gaining "insights" while under the influence of peyote. Gilbert Jorgensen |
Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 6663 Registered: 12-2003
| Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 9:37 pm: | |
Oh, Gilbert, fascinating idea! I also appreciate your hard work and all the quotes you are sharing. Reading the "real words" is so convicting, confirming, and confounding. Imagine--most of us actually thought of her as a prophet of God! Colleen |
Susans Registered user Username: Susans
Post Number: 443 Registered: 8-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 5:51 am: | |
Yes, imagine that! Thanks for posting these quotes and their context, Gilbert. As Randy said, they do speak for themselves. And, like Diana, I'm thankful that the Spirit who gives discernment brought me out of all that mess. Susan |
Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar
Post Number: 338 Registered: 3-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 6:35 am: | |
I find it incomprehensible that she had no idea that she was manipulating both "truth" and the people around her. It is interesting how the White Estate uses "circular logic" from her own statements to validate herself. Excellent thoughts, Gilbert. Thank you for sharing the entire quote so we don't get it "out of context." Patria |
Reb Registered user Username: Reb
Post Number: 646 Registered: 5-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 6:50 am: | |
Thanks, Gilbert. I have thought for some time that Adventists tend to "circular reasoning". As a math person who knows how do to proofs, this type of thinking really drives me nuts and is opposite of how I have been trained to think. Hmmm I wonder what Ellen did write when she was under the influence of "vinegar". The vinegar of those days had a higher alcohol content than beer. She admits she was addicted to it. Could Ellen have been an alcoholic? I, for one do not think Ellen was demonic. I think she was very ill and manipulated by those around her into thinking she had a "gift". No doubt the "Great Disappointment" probably pushed her "over the edge" mentally. She was brain-damaged, mentally ill, and throw alcohol into the mix and it's not hard to see why she would write such stuff. I praise God every day I know longer believe that stuff. And when I was an Adventist I believed EVERY WORD Ellen wrote. |
Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar
Post Number: 341 Registered: 3-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 7:24 am: | |
"The vinegar of those days had a higher alcohol content than beer." Is that true? Or is that a joke? Patria |
Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 642 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 8:03 am: | |
What Bible prophet ever had an experience like this? How did this affect her "visions"? What did she write during this time? I find it amazing that she would state, "This experience has been of great value to me in many ways."
quote:"I had indulged the desire for vinegar. But I resolved with the help of God to overcome this appetite. I fought the temptation, determined not to be mastered by this habit. For weeks I was very sick; but I kept saying over and over, The Lord knows all about it. If I die, I die; but I will not yield to this desire. The struggle continued, and I was sorely afflicted for many weeks. All thought that it was impossible for me to live. You may be sure we sought the Lord very earnestly. The most fervent prayers were offered for my recovery. I continued to resist the desire for vinegar, and at last I conquered. Now I have no inclination to taste anything of the kind. This experience has been of great value to me in many ways. I obtained a complete victory." (Ellen G. White, letter 70, 1911, reproduced in Counsels on Diet and Foods, page 485).
From http://www.ellenwhite.org/contra9.htm quote:First, we are going to establish how vinegar was made in the mid-1800s. Notice the following recipes for homemade vinegar taken from Miss Leslie's Directions for Cookery, published in 1851: CIDER VINEGAR Take six quarts of rye meal; stir and mix it well into a barrel of strong hard cider of the best kind; and then add a gallon of whiskey. Cover the cask, (leaving the bung loosely in it,) set it in the part of your yard that is most exposed to the air; and in the course of four weeks (if the weather is warm and dry) you will have good vinegar fit for use. WHITE VINEGAR Put into a cask a mixture composed of five gallons of water, two gallons of whiskey, and a quart of strong yeast, stirring in two pounds of powdered charcoal. Place it where it will ferment properly, leaving the bung loose till the fermentation is over...
Gilbert Jorgensen |
River Registered user Username: River
Post Number: 1366 Registered: 9-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 8:29 am: | |
Thats a good recipe for escalating "Shine" there Gilbert. According to that she was drinking pure "White lightening". You can call it vinegar all you want, but in Arkansas we call it "White lightening" "Mountain due" "Shine" or "Moon Shine". River |
Reb Registered user Username: Reb
Post Number: 647 Registered: 5-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 8:30 am: | |
Thanks, Gilbert. As you can see, Patria, it's NO JOKE. Hmmmmmm. Ellen had "distilled spirits" rather than the Spririt of Prophecy it seems. How anyone could still believe she was inspired after finding this information is beyond me. What prophet prophesies under the influence of alcohol? |
Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar
Post Number: 343 Registered: 3-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 8:48 am: | |
Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle...errr, aunt. I guess I'll never quit being shocked. Patria |
Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 644 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 9:47 am: | |
Can anyone figure out what she was trying to saying here? quote:He who is the father of lies, blinds and deceives the world by sending forth his angels to speak for the apostles, and to make it appear that they contradict what they wrote by the dictation of the Holy Ghost when on earth. These lying angels make the apostles to corrupt their own teachings and to declare them to be adulterated. By so doing Satan delights to throw professed Christians and all the world into uncertainty about the Word of God. That holy Book cuts directly across his track and thwarts his plans; therefore he leads them to doubt its divine origin. Then he sets up the infidel, Thomas Paine, as if he were ushered into heaven when he died, and now, united with the holy apostles whom he hated on earth, were engaged in teaching the world. Early Writings (1882), page 90
This is a continuing, authoritative source of truth for the Seventh-day adventist Church? Here are some more for extra credit. quote:Jesus sent His angels to direct the minds of the disappointed ones to the most holy place, where He had gone to cleanse the sanctuary and make a special atonement for Israel. Jesus told the angels that all who found Him would understand the work which He was to perform. I saw that while Jesus was in the most holy place He would be married to the New Jerusalem; and after His work should be accomplished in the holiest, He would descend to the earth in kingly power and take to Himself the precious ones who had patiently waited His return. Early Writings (1882), page 251
quote:Here is a channel wholly devoted to himself, under his control, and he can make the world believe what he will. The Book that is to judge him and his followers, he puts back into the shade, just where he wants it. The Saviour of the world he makes to be no more than a common man; and as the Roman guard that watched the tomb of Jesus, spread the false and lying report that the chief priests and elders put in their mouth, so will the poor, deluded followers of these pretended spiritual manifestations, repeat, and try to make it appear, that there is nothing miraculous about our Saviour's birth, death and resurrection; and they put Jesus with the Bible, back into the shade, where they want him, and then get the world to look to them and their lying wonders and miracles, which they declare far exceed the works of Christ. Thus the world is taken in the snare, and lulled to security; not to find out their awful deception, until the seven last plagues are poured out. Satan laughs as he sees his plan succeed so well, and the whole world in the snare. Early Writings (1882), page 91
What an amazing prophecy! Christ's birth, death, and resurrection will be copied. Not only will they try to copy it, but their copy is excellent, and it deceives the world who is naturally skeptical of everything. Imagine that! Why aren't Seventh-day Adventists warning the world about this great deception? quote:I saw the state of the different churches since the second angel proclaimed their fall. They have been growing more and more corrupt; yet they bear the name of being Christ's followers. It is impossible to distinguish them from the world. Their ministers take their text from the Word, but preach smooth things. The natural heart feels no objection to this. It is only the spirit and power of the truth, and the salvation of Christ, that is hateful to the carnal heart. There is nothing in the popular ministry that stirs the wrath of Satan, makes the sinner tremble, or applies to the heart and conscience the fearful realities of a judgment soon to come. Wicked men are generally pleased with a form without true godliness, and they will aid and support such a religion. Said the angel, Nothing less than the whole armor of righteousness can overcome, and retain the victory over the powers of darkness. Satan has taken full possession of the churches as a body. The sayings and doings of men are dwelt upon instead of the plain cutting truths of the word of God. Said the angel, The friendship and spirit of the world are at enmity with God. When truth in its simplicity and strength, as it is in Jesus, is brought to bear against the spirit of the world, it awakens the spirit of persecution at once. Many, very many, who profess to be Christians, have not known God. The character of the natural heart has not been changed, and the carnal mind remains at enmity with God. They are Satan's own faithful servants, notwithstanding they have assumed another name. Early Writings (1882), page 273
quote:I saw that since Jesus had left the Holy place of the heavenly Sanctuary, and had entered within the second vail, the churches were left as were the Jews; and they have been filling up with every unclean and hateful bird. I saw great iniquity and vileness in the churches; yet they profess to be Christians. Their profession, their prayers and their exhortations, are an abomination in the sight of God. Said the angel, God will not smell in their assemblies. Selfishness, fraud and deceit are practiced by them without the reprovings of conscience. And over all these evil traits they throw the cloak of religion. I was shown the pride of the nominal churches. God was not in their thoughts; but their carnal minds dwell upon themselves. They decorate their poor mortal bodies, and then look upon themselves with satisfaction and pleasure. Jesus and the angels looked upon them in anger. Said the angel, Their sins and pride have reached unto heaven. Their portion is prepared. Justice and judgment have slumbered long, but will soon awake. Vengeance is mine, and I will repay, saith the Lord. The fearful threatenings of the third angel are to be realized, and they will drink the wrath of God. An innumerable host of evil angels are spreading themselves over the whole land. The churches and religious bodies are crowded with them. And they look upon the religious bodies with exultation; for the cloak of religion covers the greatest crimes and iniquity. Early Writings (1882), page 274
quote:I saw that the slave-master would have to answer for the soul of his slave whom he has kept in ignorance; and all the sins of the slave will be visited upon the master. God cannot take the slave to heaven, who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God, or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and not holding so elevated a position as his master's brute beasts. But he does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been; while the master has to suffer the seven last plagues, and then come up in the second resurrection, and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the wrath of God will be appeased.
quote:The light that was shed upon the waiting ones penetrated everywhere, and those in the churches who had any light, who had not heard and rejected the three messages, obeyed the call and left the fallen churches. Many had come to years of accountability since these messages had been given, and the light shone upon them, and they were privileged to choose life or death. Some chose life and took their stand with those who were looking for their Lord and keeping all His commandments. The third message was to do its work; all were to be tested upon it, and the precious ones were to be called out from the religious bodies. A compelling power moved the honest, while the manifestation of the power of God brought a fear and restraint upon their unbelieving relatives and friends so that they dared not, neither had they the power to, hinder those who felt the work of the Spirit of God upon them. The last call was carried even to the poor slaves, and the pious among them poured forth their songs of rapturous joy at the prospect of their happy deliverance. Their masters could not check them; fear and astonishment kept them silent. Mighty miracles were wrought, the sick were healed, and signs and wonders followed the believers. God was in the work, and every saint, fearless of consequences, followed the convictions of his own conscience and united with those who were keeping all the commandments of God; and with power they sounded abroad the third message. I saw that this message will close with power and strength far exceeding the midnight cry. Early Writings (1882), page 278
According to this statement it look like God was planning to come back in the 1860's. Certainly many years ago everyone "had come to years of accountability since these messages had been given." Furthermore it says that the precious ones were "called out from the religious bodies", seemingly saying that this message is not for the unbelievers in Jesus Christ. At this point in time does "religious bodies" include Seventh-day Adventists? quote:I saw that every case was then decided for life or death. Jesus had blotted out the sins of his people. He had received his kingdom, and the atonement had been made for the subjects of his kingdom. While Jesus had been ministering in the Sanctuary, the judgment had been going on for the righteous dead, and then for the righteous living. The subjects of the kingdom were made up. The marriage of the Lamb was finished. And the kingdom, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, was given to Jesus, and the heirs of salvation, and Jesus was to reign as King of kings, and Lord of lords. Spiritual Gifts. Volume 1 (1858), page 197
How many Seventh-day Adventists know that the marriage of the Lamb is all over before we ever get there! This leads to the question of exactly what is the marriage of the Lamb? quote:I saw the saints leaving the cities and villages, and associating together in companies, and living in the most solitary places. Angels provided them food and water, while the wicked were suffering from hunger and thirst. Then I saw the leading men of the earth consulting together, and Satan and his angels busy around them. I saw a writing, copies of which were scattered in different parts of the land, giving orders that unless the saints should yield their peculiar faith, give up the Sabbath, and observe the first day of the week, the people were at liberty after a certain time to put them to death. But in this hour of trial the saints were calm and composed, trusting in God and leaning upon His promise that a way of escape would be made for them. In some places, before the time for the decree to be executed, the wicked rushed upon the saints to slay them; but angels in the form of men of war fought for them. Satan wished to have the privilege of destroying the saints of the Most High; but Jesus bade His angels watch over them. God would be honored by making a covenant with those who had kept His law, in the sight of the heathen round about them; and Jesus would be honored by translating, without their seeing death, the faithful, waiting ones who had so long expected Him. Early Writings (1882), page 282
This paragraph is very clear that the last point of contention will be whether to keep the Sabbath or Sunday. At this time none of the saints can be killed. This raises questions: If many saints are martyred, then it is obviously before the Death Decree. If it is before the Death Decree, then killing them would clearly be against the law. It is possible that some saints will be killed before the Close of Probation & Death Decree, that will be winked at by law enforcement agencies, but it also looks possible that there will not be martyrdom in the end times. If there is martyrdom before, it would seem strange to the wicked that they could kill the saints before, but not at this time. quote:I was pointed back to faithful Noah. The rain descended, the floods came. Noah and his family had entered the ark, and God shut them in. Noah had faithfully warned the inhabitants of the old world, while they had mocked and derided him. And as the waters descended upon the earth, and as one after another were being drowned, they beheld that ark that they had made so much sport of, riding safely upon the waters, preserving the faithful Noah and his family. So I saw that the people of God, who had warned the world of his coming wrath, would be delivered. They had faithfully warned the inhabitants of the earth, and God would not suffer the wicked to destroy those who were expecting translation, and who would not bow to the decree of the beast, or receive his mark. I saw that if the wicked were permitted to slay the saints, Satan and all his evil host, and all who hate God, would be gratified. And O, what a time of triumph it would be for his Satanic majesty, to have power, in the last closing struggle, over those who had so long waited to behold Him whom they loved. Those who have mocked at the idea of the saints going up, will witness the care of God for his people, and their glorious deliverance.
This phrase appears to be saying that there are two things involved, 1. "bow to the decree". This must mean to follow the decree of the beast to keep Sunday. If so, 2. "receive his mark" will be something different than simply keeping Sunday. Otherwise, there would be no sense in separating these two actions into two actions! Perhaps our Seventh-day Adventist friends would like to explain this one. quote:It was at midnight that God chose to deliver his people. As the wicked were mocking around them, suddenly the sun appeared, shining in his strength, and the moon stood still. The wicked beheld the scene with amazement. Signs and wonders followed in quick succession. Every thing seemed turned out of its natural course. The saints beheld the tokens of their deliverance with solemn joy.
OK. Midnight where? GMT, Mountain Time, Eastern Time? How can it be midnight everywhere in the world at the same time? This seems to suggest that all the saints will be physically close to each other. Perhaps God will bring them all together just before the end? quote:It was at midnight that God chose to deliver His people. As the wicked were mocking around them, suddenly the sun appeared, shining in his strength, and the moon stood still. The wicked looked upon the scene with amazement, while the saints beheld with solemn joy the tokens of their deliverance. Signs and wonders followed in quick succession. Everything seemed turned out of its natural course. The streams ceased to flow. Dark, heavy clouds came up and clashed against each other. But there was one clear place of settled glory, whence came the voice of God like many waters, shaking the heavens and the earth. There was a mighty earthquake. The graves were opened, and those who had died in faith under the third angel's message, keeping the Sabbath, came forth from their dusty beds, glorified, to hear the covenant of peace that God was to make with those who had kept His law. Early Writings (1882), page 285
Imagine that! There is a special resurrection of all those who died believing the 3rd Angel's Message. This will be all the saints from 1844 or so, until the last saint who dies before the Close of Probation. Won't this be wonderful -- a super-special privilege for those who live and die keeping the Sabbath! quote:On each side of the cloudy chariot were wings, and beneath it were living wheels; and as the chariot rolled upward, the wheels cried, "Holy," and the wings, as they moved, cried, "Holy," and the retinue of holy angels around the cloud cried, "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty!" And the saints in the cloud cried, "Glory! Alleluia!" And the chariot rolled upward to the Holy City. Before entering the city, the saints were arranged in a perfect square, with Jesus in the midst. He stood head and shoulders above the saints and above the angels. His majestic form and lovely countenance could be seen by all in the square. Early Writings (1882), page 287
Did you know that the cloud Jesus takes us to heaven on has wheels that are alive, and the whole thing is called a chariot. Is there some significance that we will make a square around Jesus and not a circle, which is what is normally done when surrounding someone? quote: Satan succeeds in deceiving them, and all immediately commence to fit themselves for battle. They construct weapons of war; for there are many skillful men in that vast army. And then with Satan at their head, the multitude move on. Kings and warriors follow close after Satan, and the multitude follow after in companies. Every company has a leader, and order is observed as they march over the broken surface of the earth to the holy City. Jesus closes the gates of the City, and this vast army surround it and place themselves in battle array. They have prepared all kinds of implements of war, expecting to have a fierce conflict. They arrange themselves around the City. Jesus and all the angelic host with the glittering crowns upon their heads, and all the saints with their bright crowns, ascend to the top of the wall of the City. Jesus speaks with majesty and says, Behold, ye sinners, the reward of the just! And behold ye my redeemed, the reward of the wicked! The vast multitude behold the glorious company on the walls of the City. And as they witness the splendor of their glittering crowns, and see their faces radiant with glory, expressing the image of Jesus, and then behold the unsurpassed glory and majesty of the King of kings, and Lord of lords, their courage fails. The sense of the treasure and glory which they have lost, rushes upon them, and they have a realizing sense that the wages of sin is death. They see the holy, happy company whom they have despised, clothed with glory, honor, immortality and eternal life, while they are outside of the City with every mean and abominable thing. Spiritual Gifts. Volume 1 (1858), page 216
Satan's deceptive powers must be tremendous, as the wicked can see for themselves the glorious New Jerusalem with their own eyes. How long do they prepare for the battle? To "construct weapons of war" takes some time. To make bows and arrows won't take long, but to make missiles and bombs will take a long time. Even among this rebellious horde, there is order observed. What will the saints feel in this time as they look out over the vast wicked multitude? Will they see their loved ones who refused the offer of mercy? Some have surmised from Revelation that the New Jerusalem's walls are miles high, but this cannot be as the wicked can clearly see Jesus, the angels, and saints on top of the wall. These quotes should keep your Seventh-day Adventist friends busy for a little while ... Gilbert Jorgensen |
Reb Registered user Username: Reb
Post Number: 648 Registered: 5-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 10:16 am: | |
Gilbert, I think Ellen also wrote somewhere that the trip to Heaven will take 7 days and there is a "planet" that Jesus and the Saints will stop at to observe the Sabbath. I can't believe I used to believe this stuff! |
Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 645 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 10:30 am: | |
I find it interesting when Adventists talk about "observing" the Sabbath. They all say they "believe" in it, but no two Seventh-day Adventists "observe" it in the same way. What kind of "moral" law is that? They don't follow the Bible. They don't even follow Ellen White. They each just create their own rules! My two standing questions that no Seventh-day Adventist has been willing to answer are: 1. Have you ever known anyone who was disciplined out of a congregation that you attended for Sabbath breaking? 2. Specifically and categorically, what must a person do, or not do, in order to disobey God's holy Sabbath law in such a way that he will be, as a result of his clear disobedience, disciplined out of the church that you have in mind? Gilbert Jorgensen |
Reb Registered user Username: Reb
Post Number: 649 Registered: 5-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 10:40 am: | |
It's not a moral law. Moral laws are in effect 24/7, It's ALWAYS wrong to murder. It's ALWAYS wrong to steal. It's ALWAYS wrong to lie, commit adultery, dishonour one's parents, worship idols, covet. There are ONLY 24 hours out of the week where it was WRONG for the Old Testament Jews to break the Sabbath. It was NEVER a commandment for Gentiles and I am more and more convinced of this. How can something be a moral law if it isn't in effect 24/7? It's NOT. That's just my 2 cents. I find it laughable the idea that they think the Sabbath will be kept in heaven. There is no night in heaven, there's no time. Just HOW do they think they will know. Though I guess Heaven would be a perpetual Sabbath. I actually had an Adventist tell me that those who don't "keep" the Sabbath the way Adventists think won't be happy in Heaven they would find it boring. What??? Again it's the idea that we take the charcter we build here to heaven with us. Apparantly they don't get it that our character can NEVER be perfected in these earthly bodies. When we get to Heaven our character will be made perfect by Christ. We don't do it, He does it ALL. |
Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 646 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 10:45 am: | |
Reb, the Sabbath commandment is (in my opinion) in effect seven days a week for the "legalist". It says that the other six days, people are supposed to be working. <grin> Gilbert Jorgensen |
Reb Registered user Username: Reb
Post Number: 650 Registered: 5-2007
| Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 10:54 am: | |
Oh that's right, Gilbert. Ellen did write in the "Testimonies to the Church" that the entire week should be focussed on the Sabbath. |
Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg
Post Number: 440 Registered: 12-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 10:58 am: | |
Gilbert, I for one, will not make light(or try not too) of anybody's addictions, even a so called "prophet". Heaven knows I have my own challenges. What is a shame though, is that nobody knows about this,and its implications, and the utter hypocrisy that has developed because of all that is hidden. As the reality of her life comes more into view, the sheen definitely loses its luster, under all that tarnish. Its back to, do as I say, not as I do. There certainly was little room for grace regarding food and drink in her writings. This reminds me of all that was written on "self abuse". It seems to me that when we try and live by "works", instead of "grace", we often dwell on, and condemn others for the things that we have the most difficult time overcoming. (Whether they need to be overcome is a whole other topic) I found it quite curious that one of the ingredients of "White" vinegar is charcoal. I often wondered how that became the Adventist cure all. She must have stumbled across that while fixin the brew. Since it wasn't an "I was shown" as far as I know, I guess we could chock it up to serendipity (smile). I am sorry, but I find the irony of all this just too much fun. |
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