| Author | Message | ||
| Bree_w Registered user Username: Bree_w Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2007 |
I've been puzzling over this and maybe those of you who understand the sanctuary doctrine and such (which never made sense to me) can explain this. Sitting in class at Union this week, the professor stated that Hebrews was a pivotal book for SDA teachings and that Hebrews clearly proves the SDA position. What do SDAs do with the 4th chapter of Hebrews? What about the chapters concerning Jesus as our High Priest, which seems to me to point to the New Covanent.I guess the whole idea that Hebrews proves SDA beliefs really confuses me. Hebrews is about Jesus and our freedom in Him right? In Christ Bree | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 654 Registered: 5-2007 |
SDAs give "lip" service to Hebrews but they seem to twist and distort it to suit their agenda and they counterdict or ignore most of it. The Sanctary and IJ clearly counterdict Hebrews where it is stated Christ IMMEDIATELY went to the right hand of God the Father when he ascended after the resurrection. Where was God the Father?? In the MOST HOLY place. Then the list of all those Old Testament Saints that have already been deemed by God to be righteuos in Hebrews. God ALREADY found them righteous. WHY would he need to go over that again??? | ||
| Bree_w Registered user Username: Bree_w Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2007 |
I think you are right Reb and they do this with a lot of the Bible. I just don't understand how people can read the Bible and get this stuff  it is sad to see these sincere Christian people so in the dark about what the Bible really says. I will just have to keep praying that God will open the eyes and hearts of the people at my college. In Christ Bree | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 655 Registered: 5-2007 |
Yet they think non-Adventists don't believe in the Bible. It IS sad. Many Adventists are sincere Christians and it is so sad to see them so in the dark about what the Bible really says. I am convinced that many Adventists really don't know the difference between what is Bible and what is Ellen White. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6684 Registered: 12-2003  |
Bree, I have puzzled over the same thing for a long time. In fact, when I was in SDA school, they used Hebrews to "prove" the SDA "sanctuary in heaven" theory to "prove" that there was a literal building with two compartments in heaven, and that God had Moses build a model of the literal heavenly sanctuary. In fact, when we were coming out of Adventism, for quite some time I found the classic Christian understanding of Hebrews to be a weak argument because I had learned the twisted SDA argument--although, as you also said, it never actually made sense to me. What actually happened was that the twisted SDA explanation innoculated me against actually pursuing or perceiving the book of Hebrews. Part of the problem is that Adventists go "literal"--they say that Hebrews is describing a real heavenly building and services and a literal work of Jesus "applying His blood" (as per the IJ) just as the levitical priests had applied literal blood. Therefore, given the "literal" interpretation (instead of seeing the physical temple system as shadows of the truth of Jesus in the presence of the Father), they had to keep Sabbath "literal", too. The steadfastly insist that the temple is literal, and Sabbath is literal, and when they read "there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God", a literal Sabbath fits a paradigm of a literal high-priest-Jesus sprinkling His blood in the sanctuary, going through literal books, reveiwing literal written records, literally removing literal sins which had accumulated in a literal sanctuary via the blood He had sprinkled there, and literally placing those sins on Satan who literally carries them to hell. It's all part of the incomplete atonement they teach based on reading SDA doctrine into Hebrews instead of reading Hebrews to learn doctrine. At least that's how I see it...and I am still amazed at how clear Hebrews is: Sabbath is in Jesus; the NC is in Jesus and accomplished by His blood. And yes--it is literal--but it is not physical as we understand physical in our three dimensions. It's spiritual—and it is the spiritual things which are eternal. The physical things we know will be made new, and, as Paul says, even our glorified bodies will be spiritual bodies. Colleen | ||
| Bree_w Registered user Username: Bree_w Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2007 |
Colleen, Thank you so much for that post! I think I at least understand their position on it now, although the whole thing seems a little creepy and completely confusing to me. I am so glad I don't have to worry about an incomplete atonement anymore! I can rest safely in the arms of my Savior In Christ Bree | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 351 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bree: If you couple Colleen and Reb's posts, you'll get a good picture of the problem with interpreting Hebrews "literally, physically". You can only go so far before it starts contradicting clear teaching in Hebrews and elsewhere about the finished atonement on the Cross. I have found that usually when they are that dogmatic about what something does to prove something, there is a BIG FAT hole in it somewhere and they say it's a sure thing because someone told them it's a sure thing and someone told THAT person it's a sure thing and that's how the story has gone for several decades. Those people have generally not looked at both sides of the debate. And since the pioneers and early Adventists did such a fine job of setting the precedent of "separating" out their people from the rest of the world by providing their own churches, schools, restaurants, hospitals, grocery stores, etc, etc, etc, a person who is raised in Adventism can literally go their whole lives without seeing the "other side" of the debate. YIKES! What a great reminder to share the Gospel with them... Patria | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 656 Registered: 11-2005 |
They also ignore Hebrews 1:2 where it says: They also don't explain how the various sacrifices are still being offered in the "heavenly sanctuary". In addition they try to make the "heavenly sanctuary" a shadow of the earthly one, instead of the other way around. And they have no answers for Hebrews 10:19-20 It clearly states that the curtain respresented His body. To propose there is a physical curtain in heaven such as Ellen White does in Early Writings p 55-56 makes absolutely no sense. Neither does the idea of a throne in the Holy Place and another one in the most Holy Place. Furthermore what Adventist can explain how Satan made it back into heaven after being evicted (Revelation 12:7-8), and then he entered the Holy place at the same time Jesus is in the Most Holy Place? For that matter, the ark in the heavenly sanctuary that Ellen White says she saw had no ten commandments in it, but she claims it did have almonds and pomegranites -- something Bible writers didn't even know about! They completely ignore the verse in Revelation 21:22-23 that says Perhaps they can also explain how there is a beginning and an end to a weekly Sabbath when there is no night! Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Bree_w Registered user Username: Bree_w Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2007 |
I have always found EGW too boring and depressing to read. There is just something wrong about the way she writes and the things she writes. That part about Satan being by the throne of God is just wierd. Sadly, most Adventist people I've met are just like me and never read what she writes. If people did really read her writings, they would never believe that God inspired her to write this stuff. | ||
| Reb Registered user Username: Reb Post Number: 656 Registered: 5-2007 |
Wasn't Satan kicked out of Heaven? He couldn't have been in the Holy Place, that alone would show how false Ellen's nonsense is! | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 888 Registered: 1-2003 |
Even if there is a heavenly temple...which I doubt...the divider into the Most Holy Place was ripped asunder at the crucifixion of Christ. We can enter freely! The SDA are trying to tell us Christ went back to heaven 2000+ years ago but waited 18hundred and 44 years to go into the Most Holy Place where God dwells? Absolutely absurd!!! We were given full access to God through the reconciliation of the cross!!!! The whole of heaven is the Most Holy Place...that is where God dwells. There is no "empty apartment" for He fills the universe with His presence!! Silly deceptive woman and her croanies!!! How dare she do this to so many! Talk about wolves in sheeps clothing!!!! | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 657 Registered: 11-2005 |
Pheeki, of course they are the only ones that God considered "worthy" of this "special light". This is their "message" to the world. The funny thing is that at the time they did not consider it to be such. Ellen claimed in vision that God showed her He was physically coming in 1843, then 1844, then 1851 and later on around 1885. She just didn't seem to learn from her past prognostications, or perhaps it was the power that she craved. The Seventh-day Adventist Church will tell you itself that this 1844 message is the only reason for the denomination's existence. That is the "message" that they supposedly have for the world! Ellen White is their only validation for this myth. That is why after all these years they can't convince the leading theologians in another single denomination of its Biblical support. They never have, and they never will. What is even more incredulous is that there is no record that they have even tried! Eliminate her and you eliminate the whole foundation of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It really is that simple. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1385 Registered: 9-2006  |
The reason they read the same Hebrews as you do and say it validates their belief is not because they are stupid, they have been blinded by the master deceiver. Corinthians II 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, Corinthians II 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. What age? From the day of Pentecost to the judgement. When you look at the SDA doctrine from a Christian perspective it looks absurd and stupid and you wonder how anyone could be so stupid, yet to them it looks perfectly reasonable. Its not because they are stupid. Satan, through the first heresy has blinded their eyes to the gospel and through successive generations, is no large matter to blind the children from a very young age through the blindness of the parents. The new ones they manage to acquire are the ones that have no Bible background and do not have a walk with Christ. Being blinded by the God of this world is not the same as educational blindness. River | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 129 Registered: 5-2007 |
Let's not forget my favorite hobby horse, the Melchizidek vs Levitical problem. Found here: http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/11/5169.html?1185562708#POST77891 http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/11/5842.html?1185755869#POST77984 http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/11/5842.html?1185755869#POST78031 Watch it River, there are certain people who read these forums that do not want you using the word "satan" when describing the sda prophet! I maintain, like others, that Satan has a claim on this sda church. | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 130 Registered: 5-2007 |
One more: http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/11/5917.html?1186718958#POST78624 | ||
| Bree_w Registered user Username: Bree_w Post Number: 26 Registered: 7-2007 |
Thanks for those links! Thats what I meant about Jesus as our High Priest and you explain it so much better than I do! Also I wasn't brave enough to try and spell Melchizidek  I am so glad that God has revealed Himself so clearly in the Bible! In Christ Bree | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 189 Registered: 7-2007 |
It was what Hebrews says versus the SDA doctrine that Jesus didn't go into the Most Holy Place until 1844, that first convinced me that Ellen White was a false prophet. (Afterward, more SDA doctrines fell, as I studied what the Bible REALLY said - my EGW "glasses" had broken ) First was Hebrews 9:12 which said that Jesus "entered (past tense) the Most Holy Place" - so He didn't wait until 1844, and Hebrews 9:25 which compares Jesus offering Himself, to the high priest entering once a year into the Most Holy Place. (Also see Hebrews 6:19,22 and Hebrews 10:19,20) Then notice Hebrews 10:12 where it says that Jesus "sat down at the right hand of God." Do the Adventists really think there's a place holier than where God is?!!! Obviously God Himself would be in the Most Holy Place! It's sad how Adventists just believe Ellen White and interpret the scriptures through her "glasses." I know I'm "preaching to the choir" here; but I wanted to write these texts down in case there are any Adventists reading this. Another curious thing is that Adventists believe the scapegoat of Leviticus 16 represents Satan. My little reference Bible, referring from Leviticus 16:21 where the priest Aaron is putting the sins on the head of the goat; refers me to Isaiah 53:6 which says: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." It sounds like the Adventists have the wrong definition for the scapegoat as well. (I think all 3 - priest, Lord's goat, and scapegoat; represented Christ.) Dianne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2089 Registered: 10-2004  |
Dianne, See also verse 11 of Isaiah 53: "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (KJV.) And also, John 1:29: "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'" (NASB.) For anyone wanting to see more about how blasphemous the SDA scapegoat doctrine is, see this previous post of mine: http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/11/5169.html#POST68113 And also, this post and this post. Jeremy | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 658 Registered: 11-2005 |
River, you said I propose that it is because they validate everything including the Bible by Ellen White. And when they approach any subject they first ask what she wrote on the subject, and then use that perspective to try to interpret the Bible. I must admit that when I was a Seventh-day Adventist I felt quite smug in having additional "light" from the "Pen of Inspiration" to give me insights that "non-Adventists" simply didn't have. Ellen White was my "security blanket". There is the human desire to have an "inside understanding" that no one outside the group has. That was the same approach that Satan sold to Eve when he tempted her with the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. To admit that what we thought was our "security blanket" was actually a bundle of falsehoods and deceptions strikes at the very core of an Adventist's identity. As Colleen has so elloquently pointed out, no one who has not been through it can fully understand how devestation such a realization is. When relatives and loved ones recoil in horror at our new found discoveries it is not a rejection of us as individuals, but because they are in the first stage of grief that we went through -- denial. The rest is too painful for them to even contemplate. And God has entrusted us with gently guiding them through the wilderness between Adventism and Christianity. For them just the thought is frightening. That doesn't imply that we are timid. The surgery is life-changing. The Holy Spirit is the surgeon and we are just a tool in His hands. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1387 Registered: 9-2006 |
Gilbert, I hope you didn't take my statement as a low shot at anyone former or now SDA. That was in reference to the statement I have seen in here time and time again "How could I have been so stupid?" made be formers themselves. I made the statement in reference to the fact that Satan is a powerful foe. The E.G.W glasses are just a symptom of the power that is at work in the world to turn the hearts of man from the savior. While some may see the “EGW Glasses” as a cause, it is only a symptom none the less. I am not speaking in favor of EGW or Adventist innocence, even if they are smug with having inside “truth” or take pride in being the “remnant”, again smugness and pride are just another symptom of the results of being blinded by the God of this world. I am thinking the problem I had with Adventism after I came to see what it was, was that I wanted to look at them as Christian brothers, just deceived and needed to be re-educated and if I could not re-educate them that God would give them a pass because of their great sincerity, but the Holy Spirit said to me “River, look at my word and tell me what you see?”, its taken me quite a while to soak that in, but it gettin in nonetheless. I am beginning to see that dealing with my Adventist friends is no different than dealing with a wino in some back ally digging through garbage for a morsel, both have been blinded by the God of this world. It has taken me a long time to come to these conclusions and I may change my mind tomorrow, but for today I see it that way. I couldn’t understand by your reference to my quote as to whether you felt I was taking a slap at Adventist or former Adventist or that you thought I was wrong in my analysis or just what, sometimes this mode of communication is really difficult and I wanted to make sure that no one takes offense. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4225 Registered: 3-2004  |
Oh River, I like what you said,"I am beginning to see that dealing with my Adventist friends is no different than dealing with a wino in some back ally digging through garbage for a morsel, both have been blinded by the God of this world." Any addict who has recovery can tell me, that they have to hit bottom before they can look and and ask God for help. Your friends have not hit bottom yet. Let us pray that they do. I have said many time that my 12 step program cleared my brain of adventism, without my being aware of it. Adventism is like an addiction. That makes sense to me, for me, because of what God has done in my life. I will continue to pray for them because I know what an addict feels like because of my own addiction. Thank you River for being such a good friend to those Adventists. God is using you, He has chosen you and has qualified you. He is so good and so awesome. Diana | ||
| Dale Registered user Username: Dale Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2007  |
Hebrews 6:19, 20 by itself, proves the whole SDA sanctuary doctrine to be in error: This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. “Within the veil” always refers to the most holy place. This verse has an interesting history. Ballenger did a study on this, wrote to EGW showing the Biblical proof why this verse must refer to the most holy where Jesus “has entered”. EGW never answered his letter even though it was sent with proof of delivery. Then some time later in one of her books, he used the same old false logic. She said it referred to the veil between the holy place and the court. Des Ford has this in his Daniel 8:14 book. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6691 Registered: 12-2003 |
So interesting, Dale. There was a lot of—well, presumption there on Ellen's part, wasn't there? Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 659 Registered: 11-2005 |
River, I didn't read anything negative into it. If we use the scriptures as a reference point much of Seventh-day Adventist doctrine does look stupid. The same goes for Mormonism, Christian Scientist, Jehovah Witnesses or any other similar cult. The "cult" aspect is what makes it truly bizarre. If a member of the respective cult puts on the "glasses" of the cult's leader figure, then it all makes "sense" -- to them because they adopt the interpretation, no matter how fanciful, of the cult's "official interpreter". In the case of Seventh-day Adventism that would be Ellen White. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1013 Registered: 10-2002  |
Dianne hit on the "timing" problem of the SDA view of Hebrews. I remember my first mission director in Osaka explaining to one newly baptized lady with Hebrews that it had happened in 1844. Yet when referring to the atonement, the whole book uses the past tense! Recently one of my friends was talking with an SDA friend. He brought up the point about Hebrews, but the SDA friend shrugged it off saying that Paul sometimes changed the tenses of things from the prophets. Referring to my article, my friend said it was a real "butsudan" moment. |
