| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4261 Registered: 3-2004  |
I wrote on here of a friend who is supposed to be studying the Bible with no denomination or religion mixed in that is led by a retired SDA minister. I went to the Bible study with her today. I am glad I went. It started out with prayer, then the leader said we study for the Bible and encourages the participants to say "the Bible only". Okay I think, so far so good. The Bible he uses in the KJV. Most of the others use the KJV. So each person is asked to read(I was not) from John 20. Then he switches to Luke about the 2 men from Emmaus after the crucifixion. A person reads out of the NIV, as he pointed out it was the NIV. Then he asked some one to read from the Clear Word. In the mean time I am feeling a very oppressive spirit on me. After the Clear word was read I raised my hand and asked what is the Clear Word. He said it was another TRANSLATION of the Bible. I could not take it any longer, so I said, no it is not. It is a paraphrase. I turned to my friend and told her I could not stay any longer and left. I walked out of the room with this oppressive spirit on my head. I wanted to call Colleen, but I did not have her phone number. I got in my car and got off the freeway near my church, then called our CR pastor's wife and she did not answer, so I called the pastor. He did not answer. Just then my cell phone rang and it was the pastor's wife. I had called her earlier to tell her I was going to this meeting and asked for her prayers. I told her first of all about the Clear Word Bible and how it is skewed to SDA beliefs and that the SDA added words to the Bible. Then I told her how the man leading the group is being very deceptive using the Clear Word. I told her I wanted to hit him and scratch his eyes out for being deceptive. I told her how hurt and angry I am that this deception is being pulled on these people. She is a good listener. I am really glad I went. God wanted me to see how the adventists operate and that the clear word is being used for a "Bible only" study. It does not deserve to be capitalized. There are about 10 people in this group and apparently this man, I will not dignify him with the title of pastor, gave each of them a clear word book. I want to go back next week and talk to him before the class to tell him why I walked out and that I think using the clear word is VERY deceptive. I may get one for my self to show people how the SDA have changed God's word. Pray with me about this please. I hurt to see people being deceived and I get very angry when I see unsuspecting people being deceived. We do have an awesome God and I know that He knows what is happening there. He will take care of it in His time. Diana | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 892 Registered: 1-2003 |
Diana...did you discuss any of this with your friend who went to the study? | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 716 Registered: 11-2005 |
Diana, I feel so bad that you would have to go through something like that. It is incredible that he would be trying to pawn corrupt SDA Clear Word Bibles off on these people. Furthermore, it sounds like they already have Bibles. Clearly he has an agenda. It is times like these when I feel that we must be much more agressive against the "powers of darkeness". We need to locate all the websites on Internet that focus on cults and provide them with comprehensive information so they can list the Seventh-day Adventist Church right alongside these other cults. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4262 Registered: 3-2004 |
Pheeki, No, I left in the middle of the study because I could not take anymore. As soon as I entered the room there was an oppresive feeling I had over me. After I talked to my minister's wife the feeling left. I will talk to my friend soon. Gilbert, I am not ready yet to call SDA a cult. But I sure do hate their deceptive practices. Calling this Bible study a non denominational Bible study when they are using the clear word. OHHH, I could scream. Diana | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 104 Registered: 6-2007 |
I will call SDA a cult. My husband is in school getting his degree in business. He attends a Methodist affiliated university. He is required to take a religion elective. Last night was his final class of the new testament. The instructor was discussing Revelation and setting a date for the return of Christ. The instructor said the Millerite group set the date of 1844 and went on to form the cult known today as seventh day adventists. He called them a cult right in class. I asked my husband if he said anything about being a former SDA, he said no, he just sat there and listened. He couldn't wait to tell me the instructor called them a cult. Laurie | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4263 Registered: 3-2004 |
Gilbert, the way I want to be aggressive is go to the class next week and apologize for bolting out without a reason, known to them. Then I will tell them why I left, to the class, my friend and the leader. Our awesome God will let me know what to do. He always does. Diana | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 719 Registered: 11-2005 |
Diana, I certainly appreciate and treasure your viewpoint. I'm just curious. Would you consider Mormonism to be a cult? Would you consider the Jehovah's Witnesses to be a cult. Would you consider the Christian Scientists to be a cult? In your opinion, what does a cult have that Seventh-day Adventism is missing? I wonder if sometimes we are afraid to "call the kettle black" because it strikes to close to home for us? I especially appreciate your focus on "life after Adventism". I, too, would like to focus more on that. Since I am a "baby Christian" unfortunately I don't have the breadth of experience in that area. I am still reeling from all the blatant falsehood and deception that I was taught as a Seventh-day Adventist, and the implicit trust that was betrayed. I was really hoping to get a lot more interest in the thread I started on the "Christian Walk - Discipleship". Perhaps that is not a major component of being a Christian? I suppose that most of the people here have no more exposure to that than I have had -- which is minimal. It would seem to me like there are basic areas of focus within what one might call the "Christian Walk", or "Life After Adventism". What about "Witnessing", "Worship", "Service", "Prayer"? And then there are also "fruits of the spirit", or "spiritual gifts". I see evangelical literature, without any Adventist legacy, expounding on these subjects. Perhaps deeper exploration of these areas is outside the perview of these forums, and we need to go to seminars such as Beth Moore's to learn about the essentials? You and I both know we were not taught a wholesome form of genuine Christianity while being incubated in our Seventh-day Adventist cocoons. Certainly there is more to it than just waiting on the new Christian fellowship we each are worshipping with to educate us on these disciplines. It seems to me like this should be a significant component of what we are exploring here on these forums. Coming out of Adventism where there is such a distorted focus, I really need the guidance of someone with a lot more experience to identify with clarity the various areas that make up "Life after Adventism" -- the various aspects of the "walk" of a healthy Christian, and how they fit together so we don't become "lopsided Christians". Only by identifying all these parts that make up the "whole" and exporing how they complement each other, can we focus more on them. Talk should ultimately "bear fruit" in action. As Adventists we were taught "head knowledge". What we are weak on is the maturity that accompanies a "heart experience". Perhaps that is why we spend so much time talking about where we have been. That is all we know! Certainly it would be much more exciting for new visitors here to find a much greater emphasis on the "nuts and bolts" of implementing a personal and corporate "Life After Adventism". What do you think? Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4265 Registered: 3-2004 |
Gilbert, first of all I do not call SDA a cult because there is some truth there that some people respond to. I do not see any truth in LDS, JW, or Christian Scientist. Look how many of us found Jesus Christ while still in the SDA church. We did not know Him in His fullness, but we did get acquainted with Him. There is nothing I hang onto from adventism, except my family. They are non practicing SDA, but still hang onto it. Maybe they are the reason I will not call it a cult. I have not thought of that until just now. Adventism mixes the truth so deceptively. I would like to show you what I studied in my starting point class when God brought me here to Central Christian church. We studied all those things you mention above. I will tell you right now about life after adventism. God brought me to a wonderful church with a dynamic spirit fill preaching staff. The music is loud, but the words are all about God. Right after I was baptized I started volunteering to greet people when they enter the church. After the service I go to Guest Central to greet people new to our church. I get to pray with some, refer others to where they can get help needed or just talk about Jesus Christ. I do not intentionally look for ways to witness. God brings them to me and sometimes I am not aware of it until after it happens. For example: A year ago last winterI was greeting people when a young man walked in. For some reason he felt comfortable talking me to. I should say God told him to. He told me how he had gotten drunk and had hit his girl friend. After the service he came to Guest Central and we talked some more and I prayed for him. I say him one more time after that. To make a long story short he and his girlfriend who he now calls wife and her son were baptized the first Wednesday in June of this year. I saw them at church last night. His wife pointed me out and I sat with them. And all I did was listen to him and pray for him. God and the pastors who teach starting point taught him about God. I just played a small part and yet this young man and his family always have to come over and say HI. Are you going to a Christ centered church? If you are, how involved are you in it? I have found for me that this takes care of lots of the things you are asking about. Spiritual gifts. I took a test at the SDA church I last attended in VA. So when I came here I knew what mine were. Now they may have changed somewhat and I have not taken another test for a long time. Then volunteer in an area where you can use those gifts. For myself I have found that the walk of a healthy Christian is to read and study the Bible. Have daily prayer and ask God to use you in any way He sees fit today. He does. The Maturity you talk about is a process that brings change in many ways. I will pray for you that you can find what you are looking for. I just finished praying for you. Just never forget we have an awesome God who cares about you. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6734 Registered: 12-2003  |
Diana, your anger is justified, and praise God that He prompted the pastor's wife to call you back! You needed someone to debrief with. What a travesty! I'm praying that you will know how to proceed; for sure you need to warn your friend. Your pastor also needs to kinow about this Bible study, although I'm sure his wife will likely tell him. But you have specific information that perhaps you should share with him. This is the sort of thing which he should share with his local pastors' association. They need to know what their parishioners are being beguiled to join. Gilbert, I understand your frustration, I think. I am more and more convinced that the most essential component of the discipleship process during the months/years after one actually leaves is becoming re-educated in the Bible. I know this sounds pretty trite, but it is the most profound thing I can say: every person who leaves Adventism has to relearn his entire paradigm of reality and become grounded in true Bible study. Personal Bible study is foundational, but it's really important to become involved in some sort of small group Bible study where people discuss passages and pray together. Richard was involved for five years, until the group disbanded, with a small weekly group of men who studied together and prayed for each other. He learned more about the nuts and bolts of living as a Christ-honoring man from that group than he learned from any other single place. The interaction, prayer, Bible study, and accountability in that small group was deep and profoundly life-changing for him. I literally watched his world-view and his own concerns with things Adventists never thought about twice, change. It's important to be in a Bible-teaching church, but it is vital to be involved in a small group of mature Christ-followers who are studying and growing together, praying for one another. One of the phenomona I've realized over the years as we leave the church is that as we distance ourselves, the reality of what we were in becomes increasingly clear. As the Bible begins to make more sense, the heresey and even the treachery of Ellen and of the Adventist control and "brainwashing" emerges. It's sort of like we begin to see the actual reality of the forest as the individual trees no longer take up our whole field of vision. I've discovered that the farther from Adventism I get, the more dangerous and heretical I see it to be, and the more clearly I see it functioning exactly as a cult. The truths inside Adventism are all twisted; none of them is the pure truth. Everything is tainted. The reason group Bible study is important is that rubbing shoulders with Christ-followers who are not shaped by heresy—even if they are quite unsophisticated, is an eye-opening experience. To watch people praise and love the Lord Jesus and to trust Him with their children, lives, and sins is shocking at first, but it is a huge step in the direction of learning to live by faith in Jesus. The necessity of Bible study is why we post our FAF studies on this website for those who don't immediately have access to other venues or materials. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1429 Registered: 9-2006  |
Dianna, We have talked about this before so I won't belabor it much, but the little truth that you find there doesn't make a case. An example might be, if you were offered 100.00 for your hard work, you worked hard and were faithful to do everything you were instructed to do, you bent your back to the task and you ask for nothing in return accept that 100.00, you were broke when you were hired, your children wait at home hungry. When evening comes and you straighten your aching back, the man walks out and pays you 100.00, you go to the store and shop for groceries, you walk to the counter and unload on the counter, your Grocery bill comes to 100.00 the checker turns to you and says “Madam, all these bill,s are counterfeit accept this 1.00 bill. Would you have trouble calling the man who paid you in counterfeit bill’s a counterfeiter because 1.00 of the bills were good? You say, well, “maybe he did not know” here is what I will do, I will go back and talk to him, so you go back to the gates of his fine mansion and ring the bell, over the speaker comes “What do you want?” you say “Sir, the bill’s you paid me with were no good all accept one, he replies “Get away from my gate before I sick the dog’s on you!!” “Go!!”. How about now, would you call him a counterfeiter? Dianna, I am afraid the same thing is going to happen to you when you go back there to explain anything. You may not be able to call it a cult, but I can, the man is offering theses people a wage, he is offering them pay in counterfeit bills all accept a 1.00. They will walk out with a little truth and 99 lies that are no good in God’s currency. He offers them a smidgen of honesty and gets them to listen to much dishonesty. The Word is left to us for serious reasons; God does not act in superfluous ways, we must take his word seriously and also counterfeits to his word seriously. The bill’s a cult holds out look good at first glance, but on close examination you can see that they are counterfeit if you hold them up beside God’s dollars. There is a story of a school teacher in California who printed up play money for her third grade class and she took a dollar bill on her inkjet printer and even though she replace the picture in the center with her own and even put little pink elephants on them she got into much trouble with the secret service and they came and collected every one of those bill’s, the reason they gave? People do not pay attention to the money they handle and spend. The federal government wants to be sure we have confidence in the dollar, our economy; even the world economy depends on it. There is a moral in this story. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4266 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, My friend called me back not to long ago. I told her why I walked out of the study: The clear word is skewed toward adventism. When she called I was on CARM where I posted something like this one. One of the formers had posted Deut 5:3 from 2 Bibles and from the cw. I read them to her and she was amazed. She did not know this was an SDA publication. I doubt she knew what SDA was until she met this man, then me. I knew her before I left adventism, but not really well. She said the leader told her he liked the cw because it was easier to understand. In this group are about 10 senior citizens who know nothing of adventism and maybe not much more about their own churches. He has them all duped. So, at least she knows what he is doing. I told her I thought he was being deceptive and that made me so angry and sad I cried when I got in my car. I stopped it near my church to call my pastor and/or his wife. I wanted to call you Colleen, but you were not home when I got home. Please pray with me that my friend, Marye, does not return to this Bible study and I use those words loosely. Oh, yes, I told the pastor's wife a lot of things and she called me back 2 times this afternoon. It was about SDA beliefs. I want to order 24 copies of Ratzlaff's book, Cultic Doctrine of SDA. I went to the web site but I did not see where I can order that many. I am sure I just missed the right link. Diana Our awesome God knows what is happening. | ||
| Dale Registered user Username: Dale Post Number: 24 Registered: 4-2007  |
Diana, If I was the one who had gone to the Bible study and seen them pull this, I would call the conference president and ask a series of questions in the following order. 1. Is the Clear Word an Adventist Bible? He will say “no”. 2. Is the Clear Word a good bible for doctrinal study? He will say "no". 3. Do you recommend using the Clear Word when studying with non Adventists? He will probably say "no". 4. Then ask him if he will publicly renounce the Clear Word and reprimand those who use the Clear Word for doctrinal study with non Adventists. At that point I would tell him what you experienced and demand that he call this person and have him stop that practice or else the hypocrisy of his statements becomes evident. If I knew all the names, places, etc. I would even be willing to do this for you. This deception must stop! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4267 Registered: 3-2004 |
I do not know the name of the man and my friend is gone for the weekend. When she comes back, I will ask her and will email then to Colleen so she can forward them to you. The clear word was not the only one used, but it was part of the package and all the participants had bought one. Thanks Dale. I will pray about it and maybe I will do it. Diana | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1030 Registered: 10-2002  |
Diana, I'm so sorry you had to experience that. I will be praying for the people in the study and for the minister. It is a sick trick to pull. And sadly, because he is a "retired" minister, the conference probably would not get upset with him about it. However, if you could obtain a letter about the Clear Word from the conference saying all the things Dale just said, and then present it at the Bible study, that would probably be very effective. I wish I could say all of this was not characteristic of SDA evangelism, but it is. I was a student missionary for Adventism, and I remember that little Mark Finley book, "Studying Together", and I remember the methods and logic we used. We knew people would think we were a cult, so we waited as long as possible to identify ourselves as SDA, or as long as possible before mentioning Ellen White. New covers were made for her books or parts of her books, or at times even printed without her name at all. If we didn't want to appear like a cult, we shouldn't have evangelized like a cult. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 1031 Registered: 10-2002 |
Actually, is there anyone who knows of a place on the internet where there is an SDA statement about the Clear Word which says what Dale said? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4268 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, If you want to call SDA a cult, be my guest. I am not doing it at this time so do not get after me because I do not. When God tells me to do so, I will. In the mean time, it really is none of your business. And yes, I do not like being spoken to as you have. But I like you and I do forgive you. Just let me deal with this myself with God. Diana | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 483 Registered: 8-2006 |
Gilbert, You are attending a Baptist church now, I believe? One of the studies that used to be given there is Experiencing God, by Henry Blackaby. It's a good book and a good study from what I understand (I've not taken the study but have the book). Also, the Beth Moore studies are given regularly in Baptist churches (although mostly targeted to women) and your wife may like that. Does your church offer a new believer's Sunday School class? Kay Arthur has written some inductive studies on various topics that have to do with the Christian walk. Above all, a small group for men would be a wonderful thing for you and one for women for your wife. And a good, bible teaching church, which I think you say you are in. There are mentoring programs in many churches where more mature Christians mentor newer ones. In my instance, besides being in a church which emphasized expository bible preaching, the women's small group I was in did a 12 week study on the book "The Search for Significance". That study changed my life! As Colleen noted above, you really do have to become re-educated in the Bible. While you are looking for the right kind of small group or community, head to your local Christian bookstore and ask for some books that help new Christians grow in the Lord. There is a ton of material out there. Find a community bible study group. Get with other people who you can study and pray with together. Nothing takes the place of face to face. I could go on and on! I pray for you to find what it is God has for you as a new baby Christian without the bondage of SDA. Blessings, Susan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4269 Registered: 3-2004 |
Ramone, I am glad I experienced what I did today. At least I got to warn my friend and that was worth everything I went through. She is a child of God. And who knows, I was thinking of Queen Esther who came on the scene when she was needed. Maybe that is what God was doing with me. You see, along with this I was able to share with our CR pastor and his wife things about adventism that they did not know. I know in the past God has put me where he put me to tell others what SDAs really believe. God used me to day and that is fine with me. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Dale Registered user Username: Dale Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2007 |
In my conversations with Adventist leaders and pastors—some within the last 3 months—they have all said that the Clear Word was a mistake and privately renounced it. When asked why the church did not publicly renounce it there was either silence or, "It sells". When I ask if I could sell Sabbath in Christ in the Adventist bookstore, there was a quick "No". I think the way the SDA church has handled the Clear Word says volumes about their integrity. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4270 Registered: 3-2004 |
What can I say except AMEN!!!! Diana |
